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vegetarian bbq joints in seoul
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drydell



Joined: 01 Oct 2009

PostPosted: Wed Feb 20, 2013 4:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I've gotta sign off for a while - OP sorry it was a hijacked thread - but they started it (in petulant child's voice)

For anyone interested in Paleo i'd direct them to the extensive Primitive Nutrition You Tube video series covering all the fallacies of low-carb and Paleo

be warned there is about 140 video running into tens of hours of material -all excellently researched - including a spectacular demolition of Gary Taubes...

If anyone gets through all that and still thinks the Paleo diet is a great idea...

here it is
http://www.youtube.com/user/PrimitiveNutrition/videos?sort=da&flow=grid&view=0
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schwa



Joined: 18 Jan 2003
Location: sokcho

PostPosted: Wed Feb 20, 2013 5:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Heres an interesting article about evolutionary biology from a scholarly source suggesting that some adaptations can take hold surprisingly quickly. Its a balanced & informative read.

Modern life, we’re told, is out of sync with human evolution. Thus the paleo diet and other fads – all belying the way evolution actually works...

http://chronicle.com/article/Misguided-Nostalgia-for-Our/137285/
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Kepler



Joined: 24 Sep 2007

PostPosted: Wed Feb 20, 2013 7:03 am    Post subject: Re: vegetarian bbq joints in seoul Reply with quote

drydell wrote:
Fox wrote:
drydell wrote:
This (and this is where paleos fail to understand evolution) does not mean meat is optimal for health and longevity - all evolution 'cares' about is continued reproduction of the species - not living until a ripe old age.


As a non-overweight male, approximately how many years will the daily ingestion of meat at substantial levels take off of my life?


Its a good question...I can't really answer that but..

I'll refer you to an ex-paleo blogger who ate (grass-fed)paleo for 14 years - and wrote a book on it too...until ..

1. He experienced a whole mass of negative health symptoms
2. His wife and clients, who he promoted the diet to, also had many adverse health effects
3. He realised he was spending so much time picking apart all pubmed studies that conflicted with paleo - but that the overwhelming evidence was against paleo eating.
4. his ex wife got breast cancer he is now convinced began during their time eating high meat diet..
http://donmatesz.blogspot.kr/2011/06/farewell-to-paleo.html

That's interesting. I've read similar horror stories from people who went on a very low carb paleo diet. Paleo doesn't necessarily have to be low carb. There are examples of primitive groups of people who got a lot of their calories from starchy vegetables such as sweet potatoes or taro. There is a lot of anecdotal evidence that low carb diets don't work for everybody.
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12ax7



Joined: 07 Nov 2009

PostPosted: Thu Feb 21, 2013 3:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

What's with this obsession with arguing about extremes? Vegan or all meat.

Both are demonstrably unhealthy and unnatural.

Once again, how is an occasional burger going to send me to an early grave? It won't because I have healthy habits and apparently good genes.
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12ax7



Joined: 07 Nov 2009

PostPosted: Sat Feb 23, 2013 12:06 am    Post subject: Re: vegetarian bbq joints in seoul Reply with quote

drydell wrote:
12ax7 wrote:
drydell wrote:
12ax7 wrote:
drydell wrote:
KimchiNinja wrote:
wishfullthinkng wrote:
just a disclaimer, this is not for me, as i think vegetarianism is ridiculous. it's for a friend


LOL, it IS totally ridiculous. I just converted a long-term vegi, dude is eating meat like crazy now. It's even harder than converting lesbians by the way.


Is it as ridiculous as buying into the current fad diet that promotes fringe nutrition conspiracies regarding cholesterol and saturated fat etc.. And promoting a high meat diet when all cancer, heart health organizations and expert nutritional panels advise against such?


No, what's ridiculous is that you bring up a fad that died 10 years ago. What's even more ridiculous is the suggestion that humans aren't adapted to be omnivores (and therefore do not thrive as such).


You didn't understand....

We are adapted to be omnivores. But it is a double edge sword. Not all adaptations in nature are advantageous for optimal health.. Some can be detrimental to health such as Sickle Cell Anemia.

Meat consumed in large amounts over a long enough time will cause ill heath..
Do you want to want to just reach reproductive age successfully or are you hoping to enjoying those retirement years exploring the world?


Apples and oranges.

Sickle cell anemia is a mutation that offers no benefits unless you live in a area heavily affected by malaria, which is why that is where the mutation is mostly common.

All humans have the digestive system and the jaws of omnivores.

Clearly, being omnivorous is beneficial to us as the adaptations are common amongst all humans.

Reach reproductive age? I'm middle-aged but I have a resting heart rate in the low 50s. I've never smoked. I've played sports and exercised regularly since I was 6 years old.

My grandparents lived to be in their 90s. My father is 75 and walks 5km every day. My mother is turning 70 and she teaches martial arts and yoga.

So, you think an occasional burger is going to send me to an early grave?
no but i'm arguing against people promoting paleo - that's not about an occaisional burger
Laughing Laughing Laughing Laughing Laughing Laughing


here are more examples of negative (universal adaptations)
Quote:
The unique human voice box, the anatomical source of our ability to use complex language, also makes it impossible for us to breathe and swallow at the same time... which means we're much more likely to choke to death on our food than other animals are. Language comes with the inherent risk of death by choking.

Chronic lower back pain is a direct consequence of our upright posture; hominoid primates have a transverse lumbar process that is serially homologous with the spinous process (rather than with the styloid process, as it is in other mammals), allowing us to assume more upright postures. But this mutation puts a lot of mechanical stress on the lower vertebrae, often leading to herniated discs. This is a risk few other mammals run, because the weight of their upper bodies is distributed along a longer axis


http://paleovegan.blogspot.kr/2012/12/food-for-thought.html


What does that have to do with diet?
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CentralCali



Joined: 17 May 2007

PostPosted: Sat Feb 23, 2013 2:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

12ax7 wrote:
What's with this obsession with arguing about extremes? Vegan or all meat.

Both are demonstrably unhealthy and unnatural.


Except, of course, for that nifty link I posted earlier in this thread from actual dietician associations in two major countries saying that vegetarian/vegan diets if done properly are in fact healty.

Quote:
Once again, how is an occasional burger going to send me to an early grave? It won't because I have healthy habits and apparently good genes.


Correct. The occasional splurge on junk food most likely isn't going to put one foot in the grave. Intelligent and healthy menu planning coupled with good habits will improve your health.
-----
I'm still curious if the OP's friend managed to find one of those temple food places.
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12ax7



Joined: 07 Nov 2009

PostPosted: Sat Feb 23, 2013 8:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

CentralCali wrote:
12ax7 wrote:
What's with this obsession with arguing about extremes? Vegan or all meat.

Both are demonstrably unhealthy and unnatural.


Except, of course, for that nifty link I posted earlier in this thread from actual dietician associations in two major countries saying that vegetarian/vegan diets if done properly are in fact healty.


Except that most vegetarians/vegans I know aren't doing it right, or at least the ones who are Westerners. They are either obese or underweight, both of which can, and often will,shorten a person's life.

And, really, if someone eats a lot of fish but no red meat, is it really honest and fair to attribute their good health to their being a vegetarian instead of their regular diet of seafood?
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CentralCali



Joined: 17 May 2007

PostPosted: Sat Feb 23, 2013 8:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

12ax7 wrote:
Except that most vegetarians/vegans I know aren't doing it right, or at least the ones who are Westerners. They are either obese or underweight, both of which can, and often will,shorten a person's life.


No doubt they'd have bad eating habits regardless. Some of us veggies actually do it right. I say this because it's rather obvious that most people don't do any kind of healthy diet anyway.

Quote:
And, really, if someone eats a lot of fish but no red meat, is it really honest and fair to attribute their good health to their being a vegetarian instead of their regular diet of seafood?


Vegetarians eat seafood? Well, "pescatarians" do, but not all vegetarians are pescatarian.
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12ax7



Joined: 07 Nov 2009

PostPosted: Sat Feb 23, 2013 5:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

CentralCali wrote:


Vegetarians eat seafood? Well, "pescatarians" do, but not all vegetarians are pescatarian.


That's splitting hairs.

Trying to be "unique" by labeling oneself is best left to high school kids. It's stops being cute and quirky when one becomes an adult.
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CentralCali



Joined: 17 May 2007

PostPosted: Sat Feb 23, 2013 7:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

12ax7 wrote:
CentralCali wrote:


Vegetarians eat seafood? Well, "pescatarians" do, but not all vegetarians are pescatarian.


That's splitting hairs.

Trying to be "unique" by labeling oneself is best left to high school kids. It's stops being cute and quirky when one becomes an adult.


Where did I say I was unique or even best?
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schwa



Joined: 18 Jan 2003
Location: sokcho

PostPosted: Sun Feb 24, 2013 2:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Heres something for the paleo proponents (& meat-eaters in general) to consider. Alzheimers. This from an agency of the US Dept of Health:

"Thinking the unthinkable: Alzheimer's, Creutzfeldt-Jakob and Mad Cow disease: the age-related reemergence of virulent, foodborne, bovine tuberculosis or losing your mind for the sake of a shake or burger."

"...there is three times the risk of developing Alzheimer's in meat eaters as opposed to vegetarians."

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15694685
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KimchiNinja



Joined: 01 May 2012
Location: Gangnam

PostPosted: Mon Feb 25, 2013 10:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

schwa wrote:
Heres something for the paleo proponents (& meat-eaters in general) to consider. Alzheimers. This from an agency of the US Dept of Health:

"Thinking the unthinkable: Alzheimer's, Creutzfeldt-Jakob and Mad Cow disease: the age-related reemergence of virulent, foodborne, bovine tuberculosis or losing your mind for the sake of a shake or burger."

"...there is three times the risk of developing Alzheimer's in meat eaters as opposed to vegetarians."

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15694685


Like all myopic American studies it means nothing though. They have no idea what causes what or what's happening.
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KimchiNinja



Joined: 01 May 2012
Location: Gangnam

PostPosted: Mon Feb 25, 2013 10:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

People (especially Americans) have a real hard time zooming out and looking at reality dammit! Smile

The two largest dietary studies ever conducted:

STUDY A: NATURAL HUMAN BEHAVOIR
The largest study of humans all over the Earth eating what they naturally ate, before modern diets (included sequestered villages in Switzerland, Gaelic communities in the Outer Hebrides, indigenous peoples of North and South America, Melanesian and Polynesian South Sea Islanders, African tribes, Australian Aborigines and New Zealand Maori). Note where there were tribes living off high levels of vegi with little meat physical degeneration was present.
http://www.westonaprice.org/basics/principles-of-healthy-diets#characteristics

STUDY B: THE USA
The largest whacked-out study ever conducted on a group of people, which involved doing the EXACT OPPOSITE of what the native tribes did (see above). In other worlds the Americans maximized their white flour and sugar while minimizing fat, especially saturated fat, and tried to minimize cholesterol, salt, meat, etc.

So we get to see A vs B and what happens when you do A and what happens when you do B.

One worked, the other didn't work. Shocked
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ghostrider



Joined: 27 Jun 2011

PostPosted: Tue Feb 26, 2013 5:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

"To everyone’s surprise, the book, called “The China Study,” has since sold 500,000 copies, making it one of the country’s best-selling nutrition titles. The book focuses on the knowledge gained from the China Study, a 20-year partnership of Cornell University, Oxford University and the Chinese Academy of Preventive Medicine that showed high consumption of animal-based foods is associated with more chronic disease, while those who ate primarily a plant-based diet were the healthiest.

Last fall, former President Bill Clinton even cited the book in explaining how he lost 24 pounds by converting to a plant-based diet in hopes of improving his heart health. The president gave up dairy, switching to almond milk, and says he lives primarily on beans and other legumes, vegetables and fruit, although he will, on rare occasions, eat fish."
http://well.blogs.nytimes.com/2011/01/07/nutrition-advice-from-the-china-study/
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Steelrails



Joined: 12 Mar 2009
Location: Earth, Solar System

PostPosted: Tue Feb 26, 2013 4:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

So are there any vegetarian BBQ joints? I eat meat and enjoy meat, but I also enjoy vegetarian cuisine. I'd love to go and try such a place if it existed. It would also be nice to take my vegetarian friends there so for once they could feel welcome and not having to compromise and it would do good for all the people that give them grief to have to spend a meal with the shoe on the other foot.

Bottom line- Such a place in theory could be really delicious and I'd love to try it.
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