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vegetarian bbq joints in seoul
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KimchiNinja



Joined: 01 May 2012
Location: Gangnam

PostPosted: Wed Feb 27, 2013 6:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ghostrider wrote:
"To everyone’s surprise, the book, called “The China Study,” has since sold 500,000 copies, making it one of the country’s best-selling nutrition titles. The book focuses on the knowledge gained from the China Study, a 20-year partnership of Cornell University, Oxford University and the Chinese Academy of Preventive Medicine that showed high consumption of animal-based foods is associated with more chronic disease, while those who ate primarily a plant-based diet were the healthiest.

Last fall, former President Bill Clinton even cited the book in explaining how he lost 24 pounds by converting to a plant-based diet in hopes of improving his heart health. The president gave up dairy, switching to almond milk, and says he lives primarily on beans and other legumes, vegetables and fruit, although he will, on rare occasions, eat fish."
http://well.blogs.nytimes.com/2011/01/07/nutrition-advice-from-the-china-study/


Yes, we are talking about the same thing.

The president is feeling the benefits of Paleolithic nutrition: "The president gave up dairy, and says he lives primarily on beans and other legumes, vegetables and fruit, although he will, on rare occasions, eat fish."

So he eats no dairy or grains, and instead lives on vegi, beans and fish. Same as what Arnold used you eat when training (meat & vegies, no milk, no bread).

That's Paleo, you just alter the mix of vegi/meat to 80/20 or 20/80 or whatever you feel enjoy.

What these studies are actually measuring is that people on the vegi diet are also eating less white-carbohydrates, which are the cause of all evil. Because the scientist are eating these too their brains are rotton and aren't able to correctly interpret the data. Wink
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Kepler



Joined: 24 Sep 2007

PostPosted: Thu Feb 28, 2013 12:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

12ax7 wrote:
What's with this obsession with arguing about extremes? Vegan or all meat.

Both are demonstrably unhealthy and unnatural.

I think some people on both sides of the debate treat their diets like a religion. Robb Wolf, author of The Paleo Solution, complains that he was attacked by "low carb jihadists" after blogging about how he came to a certain realization:

"Slowly I realized, both by experimentation and by really looking at the literature: CALORIES MATTERED MORE THAN CARBS FOR BODY-COMP. -

"I have to say this was a pretty big shake-up for me. I’d assumed one could eat as much fat as one desired and STILL get leaner. As I mentioned above, when I first started eating LC, or more specifically, cyclic low carb (CLC) I was leaner than ever in my life. I know based on blood work and fat deposition that I had insulin resistance while vegan, and CLC helped with this immensely, but it was my new-found energy and activity level that drove my leanness, not an inability to store fat in the absence of significant insulin. I think this is one of the most damaging messages that comes out of the LC camp to this day, I was duped by this, so I’m not going to do what a lot of other recovered LC writers do and make folks out to be idiots for still believing this…but, it is time to face facts. In every damn study it is clear that for fat loss we’d like adequate protein, and a calorie restriction scenario. LC is fantastic for this in that one typically feels satisfied on high protein, moderate fat, loads of veggies. If one is insulin resistant, this approach can be nothing short of miraculous. HOWEVER! If one manages to cram enough cheese, olive oil and grass-fed butter down the pie-hole, this is in fact, a 'mass gain' diet." http://robbwolf.com/blog/2012/12/19/carb-paleo-thoughts-part-1/#sthash.LyGpTaoh.dpuf

Taubes got some things right such as saturated fat not being unhealthy. However, the whole "carbs=insulin=fat" theory doesn't explain a lot of things we see happening in the real world such as Asians eating a lot of rice and not getting fat.
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Kepler



Joined: 24 Sep 2007

PostPosted: Thu Feb 28, 2013 12:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

ghostrider wrote:
"To everyone’s surprise, the book, called “The China Study,” has since sold 500,000 copies, making it one of the country’s best-selling nutrition titles. The book focuses on the knowledge gained from the China Study, a 20-year partnership of Cornell University, Oxford University and the Chinese Academy of Preventive Medicine that showed high consumption of animal-based foods is associated with more chronic disease, while those who ate primarily a plant-based diet were the healthiest.

Last fall, former President Bill Clinton even cited the book in explaining how he lost 24 pounds by converting to a plant-based diet in hopes of improving his heart health. The president gave up dairy, switching to almond milk, and says he lives primarily on beans and other legumes, vegetables and fruit, although he will, on rare occasions, eat fish."
http://well.blogs.nytimes.com/2011/01/07/nutrition-advice-from-the-china-study/

Vegetarians have been citing that book for years to bolster their claims. However, the author (a vegetarian himself) cherry picked a lot of the data to reach the conclusions he wanted to reach. He failed to mention, for example, that there was a higher correlation between eating wheat and disease than between eating meat and disease.

"Despite its increasing popularity (and glowing endorsements by high-profile vegan converts like Bill Clinton), The China Study is, in many ways, more a work of fiction than a nutritional holy grail. The book has spawned a number of myths about the hazards of animal protein and the true results of the China Study itself—myths that easily crumble under a scrutinizing eye, but nonetheless continue trickling into the mainstream and gaining mounting publicity."
http://www.westonaprice.org/vegetarianism-and-plant-foods/the-china-study-myth
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Rteacher



Joined: 23 May 2005
Location: Western MA, USA

PostPosted: Sat Mar 02, 2013 3:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

There's likely a larger pool of experts on the subject of vegetarian bbq in Korea on the Seoul Veggie Club site on facebook https://www.facebook.com/groups/seoulveggieclub/

Here's a link to an interesting old thread that argued a lot of issues regarding vegetarianism/veganism - http://forums.eslcafe.com/korea/viewtopic.php?t=45720&highlight=thinkers+vegetarian

(Of course the list of great thinkers/performers in various fields who have been vegetarian and/or advocate a vegetarian diet needs to be updated...)
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12ax7



Joined: 07 Nov 2009

PostPosted: Sat Mar 02, 2013 4:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Gee, attributing intelligence and wisdom to vegetarianism, or suggesting that the latter is an indication of the former, sure isn't a logical fallacy.
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Rteacher



Joined: 23 May 2005
Location: Western MA, USA

PostPosted: Sat Mar 02, 2013 5:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Gee sure isn't a logical fallacy? Surprised
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12ax7



Joined: 07 Nov 2009

PostPosted: Sat Mar 02, 2013 5:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Rteacher wrote:
Gee sure isn't a logical fallacy? Surprised


Thanks for proving the point I was making with my sarcastic comment.
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NYC_Gal 2.0



Joined: 10 Dec 2010

PostPosted: Sat Mar 02, 2013 6:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Rteacher wrote:
Gee sure isn't a logical fallacy? Surprised


It isn't. There is no one-size-fits-all diet. I was vegetarian for years, and my skin issues have all but gone since returning to a diet that incorporates a lot of seafood, and I wasn't one of those ill-informed vegetarians.
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Rteacher



Joined: 23 May 2005
Location: Western MA, USA

PostPosted: Sat Mar 02, 2013 7:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Things don't have personal attributes, but some ideas are more intelligent than others with respect to improving both the human condition and the greater environmental context.

Unnecessarily killing animals based on lust for the taste of their flesh and blood is neither intelligent nor wise. However, there is no harmful (karmic/sinful) reaction for eating animals when there is not enough vegetarian food (or for eating animals that have died naturally).

I agree with spiritual traditions that promote living in harmony with nature (rather than brutally conquering it/ wiping out entire species) and the minimization of violence to all living entities. Originally, I think all major religions stressed this principle, but meat-lovers gradually exerted a corrupting influence that resulted in promotion of the "slaughterhouses are good"/ "meat is wonderful" idea.
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Fox



Joined: 04 Mar 2009

PostPosted: Sat Mar 02, 2013 8:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Rteacher wrote:

I agree with spiritual traditions that promote living in harmony with nature (rather than brutally conquering it/unnecessarily wiping out entire species) and minimizing violence to all living entities.


Living in harmony with "nature" and minimizing violence to all living entities are contradictory notions. The very steps a man must take in order minimize violence towards living entities puts him out of harmony with the broader natural world. The hunter-gatherer is far more compatible with natural ecosystems than the agriculturalist.

Rteacher wrote:
Originally, I think all major religions stressed this principle, but meat-lovers gradually exerted a corrupting influence that resulted in promotion of the "slaughterhouses are good" idea.


An unlikely and data-free conclusion. Even the Indian traditions you are (unjustifiably) lending historical primacy to were originally founded in a broader culture which not only ate meat, but even performed animal sacrifices.

If you want to oppose the eating of meat, that's fine, but unsubstantiated pseudohistory and self-contradictory philosophic waxing is no way to argue in favor of it.
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NYC_Gal 2.0



Joined: 10 Dec 2010

PostPosted: Sat Mar 02, 2013 9:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Rteacher wrote:
Things don't have personal attributes, but some ideas are more intelligent than others with respect to improving both the human condition and the greater environmental context.

Unnecessarily killing animals based on lust for the taste of their flesh and blood is neither intelligent nor wise. However, there is no harmful (karmic/sinful) reaction for eating animals when there is not enough vegetarian food (or for eating animals that have died naturally).

I agree with spiritual traditions that promote living in harmony with nature (rather than brutally conquering it/ wiping out entire species) and the minimization of violence to all living entities. Originally, I think all major religions stressed this principle, but meat-lovers gradually exerted a corrupting influence that resulted in promotion of the "slaughterhouses are good"/ "meat is wonderful" idea.


You call it unnecessary, I (and my doctor) say that my skin is healthier. Again, stop it with the blanket statements.
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Rteacher



Joined: 23 May 2005
Location: Western MA, USA

PostPosted: Sat Mar 02, 2013 10:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

My understanding - based on Vedic literatures - is that there have always higher and lower classes present in human societies on Earth, and each class has its prescribed types of work and dietary laws aimed at promoting overall material and spiritual progress. The intellectual (brahmana) class is strictly vegetarian; the administrative (ksatria) class includes warriors who hunt, kill, and eat forest animals; the mercantile (vaishya) class includes farmers who protect cows (rather than kill and eat them) and conduct business; while the forth (and largest) social class - general laborers or sudras - also restricts killing animals in general and cows in particular. The four social orders function in tandem with four spiritual ashrams and are based on nature/quality of work - not birthright (which the corrupt caste system degraded to...)

Of course, the Vedic view of evolution and origin of species sometimes differs markedly from the changing views of modern science... http://www.stephen-knapp.com/out_of_africa_theory_verses_the_vedic_view.htm

My notion of "living in harmony with nature" includes understanding the ultimate purpose of temporary material nature in relation to the eternal spiritual consciousness from which it originates. Only when spirit-souls evolve to the human form and are capable of philosophical/religious thinking are they held accountable to laws of karma. Humans who fail to make any spiritual progress at all in the human form run the risk of falling back into the evolutionary cycle of sub-human species (according to Bhagavad-gita) http://www.harekrishnatemple.com/chapter17.html


Last edited by Rteacher on Sat Mar 02, 2013 10:53 pm; edited 2 times in total
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Rteacher



Joined: 23 May 2005
Location: Western MA, USA

PostPosted: Sat Mar 02, 2013 10:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

NYC_Gal 2.0 wrote:
Rteacher wrote:
Things don't have personal attributes, but some ideas are more intelligent than others with respect to improving both the human condition and the greater environmental context.

Unnecessarily killing animals based on lust for the taste of their flesh and blood is neither intelligent nor wise. However, there is no harmful (karmic/sinful) reaction for eating animals when there is not enough vegetarian food (or for eating animals that have died naturally).

I agree with spiritual traditions that promote living in harmony with nature (rather than brutally conquering it/ wiping out entire species) and the minimization of violence to all living entities. Originally, I think all major religions stressed this principle, but meat-lovers gradually exerted a corrupting influence that resulted in promotion of the "slaughterhouses are good"/ "meat is wonderful" idea.


You call it unnecessary, I (and my doctor) say that my skin is healthier. Again, stop it with the blanket statements.


My understanding is that laws of karma are very intricate and are subtly processed on a case-by-case basis in this world of relativity. What may be unnecessary for one person may be necessary for another person (much as one man's food is another's poison). The (Supersoul/Paramatma) expansion of God within the heart of every living being totally understands all the circumstances and ultimately makes arrangements for the gradual spiritual advancement of all living entities - though it may take millions of years and lifetimes for many souls to transcend the evolutionary cycle because illusory energy (maya) is so powerful.
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Fox



Joined: 04 Mar 2009

PostPosted: Sat Mar 02, 2013 11:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Rteacher wrote:
My understanding - based on Vedic literatures - is that there have always higher and lower classes present in human societies on Earth, and each class has its prescribed types of work and dietary laws aimed at promoting overall material and spiritual progress. The intellectual (brahmana) class is strictly vegetarian; the administrative (ksatria) class includes warriors who hunt, kill, and eat forest animals; the mercantile (vaishya) class includes farmers who protect cows (rather than kill and eat them) and conduct business; while the forth (and largest) social class - general laborers or sudras - also restricts killing animals in general and cows in particular. The four social orders function in tandem with four spiritual ashrams and are based on nature/quality of work - not birthright (which the corrupt caste system degraded to...)


Even the Brahmans were animal killers in Ancient Indian society, they simply killed animals as sacrifices rather than for consumption. To a true believer, this may be trivial, but you'll find it much harder to convince the rest of us that "vegetarianism + animal sacrifice" is ethically supreme (or even ethically excusable, really). I like Ancient Indian culture, I do, and there's probably even some truth within it, but, "The most refined thing you can do is to stop eating animals and sacrifice them instead!" is probably not a part of said truth.

Moreover, given most people clearly are not members of the intellectual caste, even the system you're prescribing would not necessarily mandate vegetarianism for the majority of people.

Rteacher wrote:
My notion of "living in harmony with nature" includes understanding the ultimate purpose of temporary material nature in relation to the eternal spiritual consciousness from which it originates. Only when spirit-souls evolve to the human form and are capable of philosophical/religious thinking are they held accountable to laws of karma. Humans who fail to make any spiritual progress at all in the human form run the risk of falling back into the evolutionary cycle of sub-human species (according to Bhagavad-gita) http://www.harekrishnatemple.com/chapter17.html


Well, fair enough if you believe that, but given that is not what most people mean when they refer to "nature," you should perhaps be more linguistically clear.
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Kepler



Joined: 24 Sep 2007

PostPosted: Sat Mar 02, 2013 11:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Rteacher wrote:


(Of course the list of great thinkers/performers in various fields who have been vegetarian and/or advocate a vegetarian diet needs to be updated...)

Here's somebody you can add to that list-

Quote:
Hitler's vegetarianism is well-known, and while he occasionally enjoyed a sausage or stuffed pigeon, he believed a meat-free diet was a key to Aryan purity. So his taste testers were also vegetarian by default.

Woelk says, "It was all vegetarian, the most delicious fresh things, from asparagus to peppers and peas, served with rice and salads. It was all arranged on one plate, just as it was served to him. There was no meat, and I do not remember any fish."

In fact, the Hitler Youth promoted soya beans in a manual and called them "Nazi beans," as an alternative to meat. Hitler told Joseph Goebbels, the Third Reich's minister of propaganda, he intended to convert Germany to vegetarianism after he won the war.

http://news.msn.com/world/hitlers-last-surviving-food-tester-talks
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