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Ron Paul and Paul Krugman (Video)
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Unposter



Joined: 04 Jun 2006

PostPosted: Mon Jan 14, 2013 6:51 am    Post subject: Ron Paul and Paul Krugman (Video) Reply with quote

A very interesting interview with Ron Paul and Paul Krugman:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WEoGKpnutyA

I know that Ron Paul was running for President but he sounds much more like a politician than I expected and Paul Krugman really comes off glib and erudite.

Your thoughts?
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sublunari



Joined: 11 Jun 2009

PostPosted: Tue Jan 15, 2013 2:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Basically agree. Blogged this here. Let's hear visitorq argue that the Byzantine Empire was peaceful for a thousand years because it adhered to a gold standard.
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comm



Joined: 22 Jun 2010

PostPosted: Tue Jan 15, 2013 5:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Keynesian economics (monetary policy in particular) is a lot like Communism in that it's exceedingly effective on paper and impossible to implement by politicians. Very simply, the government should have a revenue surplus during market up-ticks to level off those humps. Then the government spends that surplus and goes into debt to pull us out of the market lows. In this, Krugman's views are entirely rational.

However, we DIDN'T save up during the good times. Rather than having a rainy day fund for a recession, we actually went into this mess with significant debt. Because of this, we don't have the debt leeway to perform the easy "spend more" segment of Keynesian monetary policy.

Politicians don't think in the long-term like Keynesian economic theory does. They want to spend more and tax less all the time to get more votes. They do that using debt, even during market upswings, which then screws us when we need a large debt buffer for market downturns. Since the end of the gold standard four decades ago, U.S. politicians have proven that they are too irresponsible for Keynesian monetary policy.
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Fox



Joined: 04 Mar 2009

PostPosted: Tue Jan 15, 2013 6:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

They have also, however, proven they are too irresponsible for a gold standard; America had one once, and we all know how that ended up. There is no magic bullet to make politicians behave responsibly: either the citizens colectively keep them on a tight leash, or things go astray. Americans do not do this, though: they take their "dog" to the park, unleash it, sit around staring at ladies passing by, then act all disappointed when they find out it got into mischief!
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Kuros



Joined: 27 Apr 2004

PostPosted: Tue Jan 15, 2013 6:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I found this very difficult to watch. I'm very weary of Ron Paul's schtick. Meanwhile, Krugman's academic arrogance grates. At this point, I really can't bear either of them.
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visitorq



Joined: 11 Jan 2008

PostPosted: Tue Jan 15, 2013 9:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Kuros wrote:
I found this very difficult to watch. I'm very weary of Ron Paul's schtick. Meanwhile, Krugman's academic arrogance grates. At this point, I really can't bear either of them.

Actually, I had a similar to reaction to watching it. I agree with nearly everything Ron Paul says (because it's mostly obvious) but I've heard it all before. And Krugman is just a joke (not sure why anyone gives him the time of day anymore, seeing what an abject failure the policies he's advocated have been). His comments on the Great Depression were especially so out to lunch I wanted to flick off the interview early.
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caniff



Joined: 03 Feb 2004
Location: All over the map

PostPosted: Tue Jan 15, 2013 10:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

visitorq wrote:
Kuros wrote:
I found this very difficult to watch. I'm very weary of Ron Paul's schtick. Meanwhile, Krugman's academic arrogance grates. At this point, I really can't bear either of them.

Actually, I had a similar to reaction to watching it. I agree with nearly everything Ron Paul says (because it's mostly obvious) but I've heard it all before. And Krugman is just a joke (not sure why anyone gives him the time of day anymore, seeing what an abject failure the policies he's advocated have been). His comments on the Great Depression were especially so out to lunch I wanted to flick off the interview early.


If one could bear to watch, this is an old (but one in which we can see whose forecasts came to fruition) video of an Austrian economist making a PK who pipes in rather uncomfortable in his Ivory Tower:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N8LmE5cfQKA

Maybe this has been posted here before, I just remembered it from wherever.
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Unposter



Joined: 04 Jun 2006

PostPosted: Wed Jan 16, 2013 1:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

First of all, I want to thank all of you for taking the time to watch the video and make comments. I found it all educational as other perspectives help me to understand what I've witnessed.

Some comments:

I thought Comm made an interesting comment that Keynes might work if government kept a "rainy day" fund during the up cycle.

But, as far as it being impossible for government to do that, I will have to disagree. Certainly other countires such as Finland can do it. And, there seems to be more and more concensus that we need to raise taxes and cut spending, so I see at least a glimmer of hope that American can get its house in order.

The general discussion is usually on spending but actually much of our budget problems actually stem from revenue. The debt really started to spiral under Reagan when he cut taxes while increasing defense spending. It further broke barriers after we bailed out the banks during the so-called "S&L Crisis." And, of course, what might be the straw that breaks the camel's back is the Wars in Iraq and Afghanistan while bailing out financial companies and the banks yet again.

It is time we recognize America's real economic problems. And, it isn't the the lanck of a gold standard. That is a distraction at best and idiocy at worse. (Though Paul's comment that going back to the gold standard would stop the government from having the resources to fund wars and bail out banks interesting - as in it being a premise to base your economics).

As for VisitorQ, I expect more than banalities like, "His comments on the Great Depression were so out to lunch..."

I'd honestly like to know why you think so?
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visitorq



Joined: 11 Jan 2008

PostPosted: Wed Jan 16, 2013 2:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Unposter wrote:
As for VisitorQ, I expect more than banalities like, "His comments on the Great Depression were so out to lunch..."

I'd honestly like to know why you think so?

Been over this ad nauseum on here. Don't really feel like going over it yet again, unless you really want to (in which case it would help if you asked something specific). Basically his comments re: the Fed's role in the Depression are complete and utter nonsense. Not sure what else I should say.

And before you accuse me of "banal" commentary, you might check yourself:
Quote:

It is time we recognize America's real economic problems. And, it isn't the the lanck of a gold standard. That is a distraction at best and idiocy at worse.

Why?

Quote:
But, as far as it being impossible for government to do that, I will have to disagree. Certainly other countires such as Finland can do it. And, there seems to be more and more concensus that we need to raise taxes and cut spending, so I see at least a glimmer of hope that American can get its house in order.

And just what is it about Finland that you think applies to the US? Why is the comparison viable? Be specific.
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Blockhead confidence



Joined: 02 Apr 2008

PostPosted: Wed Jan 16, 2013 4:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

caniff wrote:
If one could bear to watch, this is an old (but one in which we can see whose forecasts came to fruition) video of an Austrian economist making a PK who pipes in rather uncomfortable in his Ivory Tower:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N8LmE5cfQKA

Maybe this has been posted here before, I just remembered it from wherever.


In which hour does he make his predictions? I skipped through a lot of it expecting a confrontation.

It didn't seem that old. I regularly read Krugman's blog and the comments he made (about inflation not being a threat) is something he's been saying for only the last six months, or possibly the last year.
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NohopeSeriously



Joined: 17 Jan 2011
Location: The Christian Right-Wing Educational Republic of Korea

PostPosted: Wed Jan 16, 2013 4:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LCRNI04tnN8

For any people interested simplified approaches to economics.
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sublunari



Joined: 11 Jun 2009

PostPosted: Wed Jan 16, 2013 6:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

visitorq wrote:
Kuros wrote:
I found this very difficult to watch. I'm very weary of Ron Paul's schtick. Meanwhile, Krugman's academic arrogance grates. At this point, I really can't bear either of them.

Actually, I had a similar to reaction to watching it. I agree with nearly everything Ron Paul says (because it's mostly obvious) but I've heard it all before. And Krugman is just a joke (not sure why anyone gives him the time of day anymore, seeing what an abject failure the policies he's advocated have been). His comments on the Great Depression were especially so out to lunch I wanted to flick off the interview early.


Where is the proof that the Byzantine Empire fought no wars for a thousand years due to its adherence to the gold standard, as Ron Paul says about five minutes into the video? How is that obvious?

It may seem like a minor quibble, but since it's so clearly a giant flaming truckload of bull, it undermines everything else the man argues. If you can prove this point, I will consider his perspective. Don't waste my time by attacking Krugman or arguing other points. Just tell me about how magically peaceful this medieval empire was thanks to its Ron Paul-esque monetary policies.
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comm



Joined: 22 Jun 2010

PostPosted: Wed Jan 16, 2013 6:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

sublunari wrote:
Don't waste my time by attacking Krugman or arguing other points. Just tell me about how magically peaceful this medieval empire was thanks to its Ron Paul-esque monetary policies.

His point is that the U.S. wouldn't have enough political support for wars if there were an explicit "war tax" that people could actually see the cost of. When taxes were collected explicitly for a war (as opposed to just borrowing the money and adding to the debt) wars were much less popular.
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Unposter



Joined: 04 Jun 2006

PostPosted: Wed Jan 16, 2013 6:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

First of all, my apologies, I wrote Finland but I meant Norway, which has one of the highest per capita GNP's in the world and whose government keeps a rainy day fund for emergencies and downturn's in the economy.

I meant to mention Norway because Comm had mentioned the need to save money during upturn's in the economy so you could spend money during downturns and I just wanted to say that some countries such as Norway actually do that.

As for Ron Paul and the gold standard, I think this is one of the reasons most Republicans don't take Ron Paul seriously. He goes on and on about how going back to the gold standard will keep the U.S. out of wars as we won't have the money and wealth to go to war. He even thinks it will improve the economy (I guess by lowering prices and the wealth gap).

Now, I think he makes this a talking point because he thinks this utopia talk excites his political base, in which case he is a crass politician. -Or- He really believes this in which case, he is a bad economist. Going back to the gold standard would be a disaster for the U.S. economy, especially if the U.S. did it unilaterally. Trade would dwindle and the U.S. place in the world market would be significantly marginalized.

On top of that, it would be disastrous for low income earners who would see what little wealth they had dissipate and what little help they could get from the government disappear.

I might argue that the world economy is so far removed from the gold standard at this point that it would be impossible to re-implement without a total disaster.

Now, personally, I would like to hear what VisitorQ has to say about Paul Krugman's views on the Great Depression, beginning even with what they are as all I heard him talking about was the unemployment rate during the depression.
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comm



Joined: 22 Jun 2010

PostPosted: Wed Jan 16, 2013 7:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Unposter wrote:
He goes on and on about how going back to the gold standard will keep the U.S. out of wars as we won't have the money and wealth to go to war. He even thinks it will improve the economy (I guess by lowering prices and the wealth gap).

He doesn't advocate going back to the gold standard, and explicitly says that in this video. He DOES often bring up how effective the gold standard was at keeping our debt in check though. And he does support the end of the dominance of the Federal Reserve Note (that is, ending the requirement that it be accepted as legal tender) and removing barriers that prevent a gold-backed currency from competing with the FRN (such as taxes on the 'sale' of gold).
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