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comm
Joined: 22 Jun 2010
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 Posted: Tue Jan 22, 2013 4:08 pm Post subject: |
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| Leon wrote: |
| comm wrote: |
| And yet, still necessary to the security of a free State... probably because it's outside of government control. |
Why is it necessary? Most free states don't have them, yet many third world countries do. |
Just making a Constitution reference, I didn't expect you to get it.
Steelrails has a solid description of the U.S. militia system. They were made up of common people called up by their local government in times of urgency. |
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Leon
Joined: 31 May 2010
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| Posted: Tue Jan 22, 2013 5:26 pm Post subject: |
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| comm wrote: |
| Leon wrote: |
| comm wrote: |
| And yet, still necessary to the security of a free State... probably because it's outside of government control. |
Why is it necessary? Most free states don't have them, yet many third world countries do. |
Just making a Constitution reference, I didn't expect you to get it.
Steelrails has a solid description of the U.S. militia system. They were made up of common people called up by their local government in times of urgency. |
Yes, but no militias, of that variety, for a long time, so your constitutional reference doesn't mean much in the context of modern America. So, either most of the modern world is significantly less free because of the lack of militias, or you have no point. To steel rails, I was wrong about the original militias, but even in your write up you admitted that they were discontinued due to being inefficient. If we are going by what Fox is describing, it's just the reserves or national guard on a more local level, so it's hard to see how it's different than what we already have, except it would mean a smaller standing army. |
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Leon
Joined: 31 May 2010
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| Posted: Tue Jan 22, 2013 5:31 pm Post subject: |
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| Leon wrote: |
| comm wrote: |
| Leon wrote: |
| comm wrote: |
| And yet, still necessary to the security of a free State... probably because it's outside of government control. |
Why is it necessary? Most free states don't have them, yet many third world countries do. |
Just making a Constitution reference, I didn't expect you to get it.
Steelrails has a solid description of the U.S. militia system. They were made up of common people called up by their local government in times of urgency. |
Yes, but no militias, of that variety, for a long time, so your constitutional reference doesn't mean much in the context of modern America. So, either most of the modern world is significantly less free because of the lack of militias, or you have no point. To steel rails, I was wrong about the original militias, but even in your write up you admitted that they were discontinued due to being inefficient. If we are going by what Fox is describing, it's just the reserves or national guard on a more local level, so it's hard to see how it's different than what we already have, except it would mean a smaller standing army. Militias meaning has shifted, so when people start talking about militias that's what people will assume they mean. I know we are using this term in this discussion because of the 2nd amendment, but what you're really talking about is setting up a reserves system/national guard system. |
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Steelrails
Joined: 12 Mar 2009
Location: Earth, Solar System
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| Posted: Tue Jan 22, 2013 6:02 pm Post subject: |
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| Leon wrote: |
| To steel rails, I was wrong about the original militias, but even in your write up you admitted that they were discontinued due to being inefficient. If we are going by what Fox is describing, it's just the reserves or national guard on a more local level, so it's hard to see how it's different than what we already have, except it would mean a smaller standing army. |
Well, part of the problem is the change in warfare that started with Napoleon, came to America in the Civil War, and exploded across the globe in WWI & II, namely mass mobilization and the commitment towards 'total war' where the entire resources of the state were devoted to war. In such an environment, militias are a waste.
However, I would submit that in the 21st century, we are seeing a return to smaller scale conflict. America's defense can be achieved with a significantly smaller force, provided it maintains its technological superiority. Its doubtful that this country would ever need mass mobilization again, but that's always a possibility, so a militia system would be useful in providing basic training and familiarity with military operations, as well as providing disaster relief.
Hopefully, the American military would resemble te military of America's (and other countries) past- A small standing army, consisting mostly of a few elite regiments, often with specialized functions (Special Forces, Airborne, Cavalry, Rangers), the Navy (traditionally the backbone of the "standing military"), and for the 21st century, the Air Force.
This would be similar to an 18th century force which might have a few regiments of hussars or riflemen and some cavalry, a bit of artillery, and most of the military would be in the Navy, largely protecting from commerce raiders and ensuring safety of citizens abroad, especially in evacuations and disasters.
Whatever the militia would be, if it was part of a broad community effort, would serve to provide basic military training, serve as the base of an expansible army, and provide an adequate deterrent to "tyrannical excess".
I should add one additional reason for the decline of the militia system- Previously militias were often organized around towns or counties. This was thought to enhance morale and most volunteer military units during wars were organize around towns grouped with men from their state. "The 54th Massachussetts", "The Cleveland Rifles", etc. Well, as the scale of warfare increased and the casualties became enormous, more and more frequently you started to have instances where a regiment or company would get in a bad position during a battle or be ordered to make an ill-advised assault and get cut up badly. Their town may find out after the battle that there are no more young men, all of them are dead. That tends to put a damper on the enthusiasm for the war, to say the least.
Units now are made up of people from all over and dispersed to avoid this phenomenon. That's why when you hear about a helicopter crashing or a troop carrier getting blown up, all 27 dead aren't from the same state or town.
Bringing back the organization of units based on community might make the costs of war more apparent. If 27 kids in one Texas town were to die in Iraq, you can bet there would have been far fewer 'Vote for W. Bush' signs on people's lawns. |
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Kuros
Joined: 27 Apr 2004
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| Posted: Tue Jan 22, 2013 6:20 pm Post subject: |
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Steelrails saved the thread.
Now I want to bring back militias. |
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comm
Joined: 22 Jun 2010
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| Posted: Tue Jan 22, 2013 7:24 pm Post subject: |
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| Leon wrote: |
| Yes, but no militias, of that variety, for a long time, so your constitutional reference doesn't mean much in the context of modern America. |
You may not see the benefit in having locally organized forces that are capable (collectively) of combating an oppressive national-level force, but I'm glad the other points have swayed you. |
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Leon
Joined: 31 May 2010
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| Posted: Tue Jan 22, 2013 9:08 pm Post subject: |
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| comm wrote: |
| Leon wrote: |
| Yes, but no militias, of that variety, for a long time, so your constitutional reference doesn't mean much in the context of modern America. |
You may not see the benefit in having locally organized forces that are capable (collectively) of combating an oppressive national-level force, but I'm glad the other points have swayed you. |
I'm pretty strongly for a much smaller army. I believe that we need to have a strong Naval presence to protect shipping and put a check on China's almost boundless ambition in the pacific. I don't believe we need to have massive bases in nearly as many places we do, and am against adventurism as a foreign policy, so an army more based on a reserves system sounds good. |
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madoka
Joined: 27 Mar 2008
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| Posted: Wed Jan 23, 2013 11:01 am Post subject: |
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Video at link:
http://news.yahoo.com/blogs/lookout/fifth-grader-reprimanded-bringing-paper-gun-school-181022936.html
A Philadelphia mother thinks school administrators went too far when her fifth-grade daughter brought a paper "gun" to class.
According to Dianna Kelly, who spoke with FOX 29 about the incident, her daughter, Melody Valentin, was given a sheet of paper torn and folded to look like a pistol by her grandfather.When another student saw the fake gun, which Melody had thrown in the trash can, he alerted the teacher. Kelly says that one teacher went over the top when reprimanding Melody, telling her that he "should call the cops on her" and that she could "be arrested."
Melody, meanwhile, said that the teacher "yelled at me and said I shouldn't have brought the gun to school and I kept telling him it was a paper gun but he wouldn't listen."
"Why did he threaten my daughter?" Kelly said about the incident to FOX-29. "Why were you trying to scare her?
Kelly has been keeping Melody home from school since the incident last week and says she's looking into enrolling Melody in another school soon. According to Fox 29, the school has not responded to their requests for a comment.
Last week, a kindergartner was suspended after saying she was going to shoot classmates with her pink Hello Kitty bubble gun. And earlier this month, a six-year-old boy was suspended after making a gun gesture with his hand and saying, "Pow." |
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yodanole
Joined: 02 Mar 2003
Location: La Florida
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| Posted: Wed Jan 23, 2013 11:36 am Post subject: |
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| These kids are lucky that they didn't get tazed to death. |
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actionjackson
Joined: 30 Dec 2007
Location: Any place I'm at
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| Posted: Tue Feb 05, 2013 7:24 pm Post subject: |
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And now kids are getting suspended for simply using their imaginations.
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2nd-grader suspended over imaginary grenade
A seven-year-old boy was suspended from his elementary school for using an imaginary grenade while playing "Rescue the World" on the playground.
The story was featured on Fox 31 Denver. Second-grader Alex Evans pretended to throw a grenade into a box full of, in his words, "pretend evil forces."
"I pretended the box, there's something shaking in it, and I go pshhh," Alex explained.
Unfortunately for Alex, his exploits (heroic as they were) went against Mary Blair Elementary School rules. Those rules include no fighting (real or pretend) and no weapons (real or pretend).
Alex's mom commented that she doesn't think the rule is practical. "Honestly I don�t think the rule is very realistic for kids this age,� Mandie Watkins said. "I think that when a child is trying to save the world, I don�t think he should be punished for it."
Alex is just as perplexed as his mom. "I was trying to save people and I just can�t believe I got dispended," he told Fox 31.
A similar incident took place last month in Pennsylvania when a fifth-grade girl was reprimanded by school officials for bringing a piece of paper in the shape of gun to class. |
http://news.yahoo.com/blogs/lookout/2nd-grader-suspended-over-imaginary-grenade-224740937.html |
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rollo
Joined: 10 May 2006
Location: China
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| Posted: Wed Feb 06, 2013 8:55 am Post subject: |
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| Sad!! People who imagine they are teachers trying to use their imaginary brains. the best thing about kids is their imagination!! |
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12ax7
Joined: 07 Nov 2009
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| Posted: Sat Feb 09, 2013 6:54 am Post subject: |
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| Gee, when we were in grade 2 and 3, my friends and I played King of the Hill on snowbanks every recess. I distinctly remember one of my buddies kicking me right in the face with his moon boot (still is my friend, by the way). Fun times. None of us became psychopaths. |
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Weigookin74
Joined: 26 Oct 2009
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| Posted: Wed Jul 03, 2013 9:33 pm Post subject: Re: 5yr old girl suspended for Hello Kitty terrorism |
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| madoka wrote: |
Yes, it seems the inmates run the asylum:
http://gma.yahoo.com/blogs/abc-blogs/kindergartner-suspended-over-bubble-gun-threat-174618051--abc-news-topstories.html
A 5-year-old girl was suspended from school earlier this week after she made what the school called a "terrorist threat."
Her weapon of choice? A small, Hello Kitty automatic bubble blower.
The kindergartner, who attends Mount Carmel Area Elementary School in Pennsylvania, caught administrators' attention after suggesting she and a classmate should shoot each other with bubbles.
"I think people know how harmless a bubble is. It doesn't hurt," said Robin Ficker, an attorney for the girl's family. According to Ficker, the girl, whose identity has not been released, didn't even have the bubble gun toy with her at school.
The kindergartner was ordered to undergo a psychological evaluation during her 10-day suspension, which was later reduced to two days. The evaluation deemed the girl normal and not a threat to others, Ficker said.
The girl's family is considering a lawsuit against the school to get the blemish - all because of bubbles - off their daughter's record.
"The mother has tried to get the girl in another school since this time, and they won't take the little girl because of this mark on her record," Ficker said.
The suspension comes one month after the Sandy Hook Elementary School massacre, which has created a heightened sense of alert at schools across the country.
The Mount Carmel Area School District told ABC News, "We are confident that much of the information supplied to the media may not be consistent with the facts� The Mount Carmel Area School District takes the well-being and safety of students and staff very seriously." |
Too bad you couldn't really shoot the administrators for stupidity...
(In case some PC types read this, I'm not actually telling anyone to shoot anyone. Just commenting on the devolution of what use to be known as common sense.) |
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