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My Korean Court Case
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Konglishman



Joined: 14 Sep 2007
Location: Nanjing

PostPosted: Tue Jan 29, 2013 11:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

And of course, the article also briefly references Bonojit Hussain who was successful in getting justice largely because he knew how to bring his case to the attention of the media.


Lucas wrote:
Quote:
Versions vary over what started the fight last month. One bystander reported that the 24-year-old teacher had been talking to a Korean female companion when confronted by the elderly man, who demanded to know why the woman was with a black man. Others say the American was speaking too loudly.

"I felt offended when the man in the seat said 'Shut up,'" the teacher later told police. "And while I couldn't understand the Korean that followed, I felt he was disparaging black people."


http://articles.latimes.com/2011/sep/11/entertainment/la-ca-culture-korea-20110911


Too true, I often have trouble hearing my American friends - they seem to speak so meekly and softly.

It's like hearing a mouse fart into a velvet glove!

Come on Americans please speak more loudly and confidently in public!

As for this post Rolling Eyes

I just hope the OP doesn’t go back to his own home country and hold a grudge against ALL Koreans.....If you do you could kinda do what MD does in the movie 'Falling Down' Razz

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a2YRMixW9u8 - Great movie too! Cool

I always love it here on Dave's when the dictionary gets dusted off!

At least your debating classes weren’t put to waste, your professors would be proud of you!
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coralreefer_1



Joined: 19 Jan 2009

PostPosted: Wed Jan 30, 2013 12:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think it should be mentioned that while Bonojit Hussain was successful at getting attention, alot of that attention and consequent action was at least in part due to the fact that he was a visiting professor here.

Korea being a country desperate to attract foreign scholars to teach in Korean universities was quick to make some changes concerning his case. I doubt the same would have been done if the same happened to some regular NET, foreign student, or foreign laborer. My gut feeling tells me that average Koreans only cared about this case in particular because of the status of the man himself, and not so much because he was a foreigner.
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Konglishman



Joined: 14 Sep 2007
Location: Nanjing

PostPosted: Wed Jan 30, 2013 12:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Speaking of movies, the Korean movie Unbowed (based on a true story and sticks very much to the actual real details) clearly shows the problems facing the Korean justice system and how hard it can often be to get justice.

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unbowed
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McQwaid



Joined: 18 Jan 2004

PostPosted: Wed Jan 30, 2013 12:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Why do some ESL Café posters feel the need to defend/protect Korea's image when it is not the chosen topic of thread? Please understand that this is a discussion/chat forum that is directed towards expat ESL teachers in Korea. Hence the name: ESL Cafe. If an OP says he was victimized with a fair amount of intelligent detail and with unfortunate and scary pending consequences, is it really the right time to play Sherlock Homes? Are you really trying to help? Or, are you just feeling like being clever? Or, are you feeling offended because you share a similar ethnic background to the accused?

Let’s try to remember where we are to put things into perspective. This is a cyber café. To analogize, a real Cafe is not an environment for political correctness and academic research reporting or for defending a nation that you are ethnically tied to. It is a place where people discuss/chat (type) how they feel with people that are interested in listening (reading) and supporting each other. Dave’s, I think, is for ESL expat teachers to use to support each other.

This OP and his friend needed support from the Expat ESL community using this ESL Chat Café. Instead, they got accused of embellishment, dishonestly, and being troublemakers by a chat forum Sherlock Holmes, who I feel revealed that they view the (possibly) victimized as ethnic “others”. This is concerning, because if this is so, they should not have been on the thread in the first place.

Quote:
“I really do not think any of you have anything to complain about when you compare what Whites did to the blacks.”

I think we should just let the site’s moderators moderate for Korean bashers. If one with a Korean background reads this forum, it is very likely they will feel offended. It’s understandable and it’s natural.
But then we get the post derailments that start demanding 'proofs' and 'international scenario comparison perspectives' that seeks to illegitimate a perhaps valid geographically contextual specific point of view that simply lacked the culturally sensitive academic writing techniques. But it’s a cyber-chat café! There is supposed to be an underlying forgiveness between the readers and the writers for the sloppiness of generalizations just like there is for two people who meet in a café to chat and support each other. Isn’t this the implied social contract? Of course we're gonna "chat" about racism being a minority in an old country bloodline majority. Sure it goes on in New York too, but we have not agreed to meet and chat in the "New York" forum. We are in the Korean Forum! It's not an observation that is really relevent to the context. Point is, I just think one should not be here on this poor chap’s thread if you are not here under supportive circumstances.

The chat forum reader knows to read everything with a grain of salt and that they could possibly be reading false information. We don't need people chiming in, or, shall I say, hijacking someone’s thread, to inform us of that. Why can't some people just move on to the next thread or offer help and leave at that? But if you’re simply logging in with the intent on defending Korea's image? Well, I don't think this website is directed towards that purpose or you’re in the wrong place for that.

I just hope that the two fellas involved get all the support they need to get through this terrible experience.

That is, if the story is as they say it is. But what's the point of even stating this? Isn't that just stating the completely fracking obvious.
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Konglishman



Joined: 14 Sep 2007
Location: Nanjing

PostPosted: Wed Jan 30, 2013 1:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I completely agree with MaQwaid's post.

Anyways, I thought I would post an article from the New York Times.
http://www.nytimes.com/2012/03/13/world/asia/south-korean-judges-losing-in-court-of-public-opinion.html?_r=0

New York Times wrote:
SEOUL, South Korea — The image on the cover of Kim Myung-ho’s self-published book neatly captures his attitude toward the South Korean judiciary. It shows Mr. Kim, a former mathematics professor, standing defiantly, a law book in one hand and a crossbow in the other. His book’s title: “Judges, Who Do You Think You Are?”

Mr. Kim’s outrage has resonated with South Koreans, with a movie about his dispute with the South Korean judicial system selling more than 3.5 million tickets since it was released in January. And Mr. Kim’s crossbow is more than a prop.

He actually brandished one in a January 2007 confrontation with an appeals court judge who had rejected Mr. Kim’s claim that Sungkyunkwan University had wrongfully terminated him. At some point in the showdown, an arrow flew. Mr. Kim said no one was hit. But the judge, Park Hong-woo, said he was wounded, and Mr. Kim was sentenced to four years in prison.
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Steelrails



Joined: 12 Mar 2009
Location: Earth, Solar System

PostPosted: Wed Jan 30, 2013 1:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I don't think we should automatically support the person. I have no way of knowing if what they are saying is true or not. At the same time they certainly don't deserve to be put through some wannabe-detective interrogation.

OP deserves neither support nor condemnation. What they deserve is our attention to the case as it unfolds and a level of activity in proportion to the information we are able to receive.

I would say though, that as a general rule of niceness and giving people the benefit of the doubt, while they might not deserve support, at least they deserve sympathy.
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stevieg4ever



Joined: 11 Feb 2006
Location: London, England

PostPosted: Wed Jan 30, 2013 1:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

coralreefer_1 wrote:
I think it should be mentioned that while Bonojit Hussain was successful at getting attention, alot of that attention and consequent action was at least in part due to the fact that he was a visiting professor here.

Korea being a country desperate to attract foreign scholars to teach in Korean universities was quick to make some changes concerning his case. I doubt the same would have been done if the same happened to some regular NET, foreign student, or foreign laborer. My gut feeling tells me that average Koreans only cared about this case in particular because of the status of the man himself, and not so much because he was a foreigner.


Exactly! He was in the right circles and surrounded by witnesses, in broad daylight. In particular, he was with a Korean academic (incidentally, a female, hence why the altercation started in the first place) who testified immediately in his favour. The outcome was an exception and not the rule.
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kinship



Joined: 24 Jan 2013

PostPosted: Wed Jan 30, 2013 2:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Why do some ESL Café posters feel the need to defend/protect Korea's image when it is not the chosen topic of thread?


It is quite simple, such people need to keep the haters honest, stop the distortions, keep perspective and many other things. If no one did that then this place would be utterly useless for anyone except those who unfairly and unjustly attack Korea for every little slight they supposedly commit.
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CentralCali



Joined: 17 May 2007

PostPosted: Wed Jan 30, 2013 3:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

kinship wrote:
Quote:
Actually, it is. It's both asinine and irrelevant. Too bad that you can't seem to grasp why that is the case.


Yet you provide not one concrete or credible reason for your declaration.


The incidents to which you refer are mostly in the past in another country. They have absolutely nothing to do with the issues the OP in this thread is facing in Korea.

Quote:
What are you afraid of?


What makes you think I'm afraid? Provide specifics please.

Quote:
Do you think that if you gain understanding of the plight of others via experiences here in Korea you will melt?


Now you've just left the real world. Actually, the rest of your post is also out in la-la land.
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CentralCali



Joined: 17 May 2007

PostPosted: Wed Jan 30, 2013 3:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

stevieg4ever wrote:
Exactly! He was in the right circles and surrounded by witnesses, in broad daylight. In particular, he was with a Korean academic (incidentally, a female, hence why the altercation started in the first place) who testified immediately in his favour. The outcome was an exception and not the rule.


Wasn't the Korean acquaintance also attacked in that incident? I think that had more than a little to do with the outcome of the case.
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some waygug-in



Joined: 25 Jan 2003

PostPosted: Wed Jan 30, 2013 5:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

kinship wrote:
Quote:
Why do some ESL Café posters feel the need to defend/protect Korea's image when it is not the chosen topic of thread?


It is quite simple, such people need to keep the haters honest, stop the distortions, keep perspective and many other things. If no one did that then this place would be utterly useless for anyone except those who unfairly and unjustly attack Korea for every little slight they supposedly commit.


How do you know it was unjust or unfair? Were you there?

Who's keeping the apologists honest?


It seems both of the guys involved lost their jobs. Is that just or fair?
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McQwaid



Joined: 18 Jan 2004

PostPosted: Wed Jan 30, 2013 6:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Why do some ESL Café posters feel the need to defend/protect Korea's image when it is not the chosen topic of thread?



Kinship wrote:

Quote:
It is quite simple, such people need to keep the haters honest, stop the distortions, keep perspective and many other things. If no one did that then this place would be utterly useless for anyone except those who unfairly and unjustly attack Korea for every little slight they supposedly commit.



But this is a discussion forum for Expat ESL teachers in Korea. Much of what is discussed is about incidences that occur in the geographical location that the discussion forum is targeted for. In this case it is Korea. And much of what is discussed are issues that require support from other ESL Expat Teachers in Korea. Circumstantially, the people who use this forum are Westerners who sometimes have scary incidences ( or even perceived) in the target forum location with non-Westerners simply due to the fact that the population ratio between the two groups is around 0.1% Westerner 99.9% Korean. For this forum, statistically and geographically speaking, this will most likely be about Westerner incidences that involve Koreans. There is nothing else to it really.

I would say that most of the Korean Café users already know that racism problems occur due to minority and majority historical/sociological/demographical human evolutional relations. Humans often don't like new people. But I think most Korean forum users know that if we were all put on an island at birth with the exact same environment, there is nothing that negatively separates us apart from the other except for slight bodily appearances. Race is a physical body feature due to thousands of years of geographical climates and have nothing to do with predispositions towards good and bad. We know this, but do we really have to clarify this before we share our perceived incidences with each other in a cyber café forum directed towards supporting Non-Korean expat ESL teachers?

Can we move on now? So when I am victimized ( or even perceived to be ) in this region, who just both circumstantially and statistically happens to be from the native population, can I tell my support group about it without offending you?

Believe me, if you had an incident in Mexico for example, and you went to your Cyber-forum to chat and discuss with a related group that is designed to support you, I guarantee your narrative will involve “the Mexican guy this’ and maybe “the Mexican judicial system that”. It is usable communicable default language designed for the group and the audience that uses the cyber forum. You don't know their personal names and neither do your readers. It’s simply not directed or designed for a resident Mexican to read. If he reads it, he will most likely naturally be offended? But he shouldn't have been in there!

In sum, I just don’t think you should be using Dave’s ESL Café Korean Chat forum unless you plan on contributing positively to the target audience the forum is designed to support. Otherwise, you’re just simply in the wrong place. Isn't it kinda like a man showing up at a support group for battered women and calling the women out on all their politically incorrect generalizations? I don't know, maybe not quite, but I think you know what I'm getting at here.


Last edited by McQwaid on Wed Jan 30, 2013 7:19 am; edited 1 time in total
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metalhead



Joined: 18 May 2010
Location: Toilet

PostPosted: Wed Jan 30, 2013 6:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

But in a way this IS about Korea's image. I am not whining about getting attacked while walking down the road, my complaint is about how I have been treated by the police and the so-called justice system. I cannot stress this enough: I am being treated in an unfair manner by the court, and the only reason for it that I can see is because I am not Korean.

We can argue all day about how what happens in Korea happens in other countries, but the issue I wanted to initially address was how everything is skewed in a Korean's favor in court if you are not Korean. It's utterly despicable, and the system is designed to screw you over from the beginning.

- Seven days to appeal the fine, but never receiving it in the mail.

- When you do appeal, you need a Korean with you, and it takes over two hours to do so.

- Bogus court-appointed lawyers.

- Constantly being told that what the Korean guy said are 'facts'.

- Dismissal of any evidence you present.

Well, my next court date is on Tuesday, when the Korean guy is bringing 'witnesses' and I am not, because, you know, I am not allowed to. Maybe someone can explain how that works, because my Korean lawyer sure couldn't. I think I am going to type out what I want to say in Korean, and just hand it to the judge as soon as the kangaroo trial starts. God knows they never listen to me, maybe they prefer reading.
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Steelrails



Joined: 12 Mar 2009
Location: Earth, Solar System

PostPosted: Wed Jan 30, 2013 8:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

kinship wrote:
Quote:
Why do some ESL Café posters feel the need to defend/protect Korea's image when it is not the chosen topic of thread?


It is quite simple, such people need to keep the haters honest, stop the distortions, keep perspective and many other things. If no one did that then this place would be utterly useless for anyone except those who unfairly and unjustly attack Korea for every little slight they supposedly commit.


But dude, you have nothing to go on.

I'm as apologist as they come, but anyone with a sense of justice should realize that there is nothing here for you to make a judgment one way or the other. What evidence do you have? As I said, inconsistencies by a drunk in a fight does not mean they weren't a victim. The Korean was likely drunk as well. Why do you believe his drunken word over the OPs?

To turn the tables against you, I find it highly unlikely that some Korean merchant would assault someone at night unless they were under the influence.What exactly was occurring that suddenly gave him the impulse to go into fightin mode. Sorry, but pissing in the street doesn't get me wanting to fight someone. It gets me laughing and calling over my friends to "get a load of this".

And if there is nothing to base judgment on, at least give someone the benefit of the doubt and express some sympathy to their situation.

Yes, we shouldn't automatically side with the OP just because he is a foreigner, but that doesn't mean we should automatically doubt him. What cause do you have to doubt his story?

You said that minorities getting shafted happens back home as well. TRUE.

But that means that minorities get shafted here too. Saying it happens back home doesn't mean it doesn't happen here as well.

How does saying "it happens back home" make his story untrue? Yes it makes the claim "Only happens in Korea" untrue, but that's not the issue. The issue is this incident. This isn't a comparison issue. It's someone posting something they are going through.
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kinship



Joined: 24 Jan 2013

PostPosted: Wed Jan 30, 2013 1:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
But dude, you have nothing to go on.


But i do. I have their publicly published words, the history of this website, the myriad of cases where westerners altered their version of events later exposed to be false and much more.

The thing is such threads do not help the westerner in this country. If anything it will make things worse and we already have seen so many changes simply because of westerner behavior and writings.

Look at the CRCs for Americans. It used to be a simple state check but when people started advising others to change states and come here with hidden criminal records, the Koreans got wind of it and made it an FBI check.

Westerns are not known for their honesty or for playing by the rules even though many are innocent of such activities. you can blame the apostile requirement upon the many westerners who forged or had fake degrees and CRCs created.

You guys never learn and you do not think. Innocent westerners now have to jump through hoops they should not have to simply because of people like the OP, his friend, and their supporters.

When people were complaining to their POEs about the unfair benefits being granted to different foreign teachers, did those POEs grant better benefits for all? NO. They took everything away and instituted deskwarming for all.

Your whines and complaints about the supposed unfair justice system is not going to make things better. You are going to push it too far and end up ruining life here for everyone else.
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