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The only good foreigner....is a 'new' foreigner?
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Konglishman



Joined: 14 Sep 2007
Location: Nanjing

PostPosted: Tue Jan 29, 2013 10:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Nonetheless, pay discrimination is a real issue for foreign PhD professors. For example, I know several Indian professors who get paid only hagwon wages despite publishing more than their Korean counterparts.

Also, I know an American professor (with a PhD) who has quite a lot published. Yet, when he applied for a tenure track position (while teaching in non-tenure track position), he was told he didn't qualify because he had nothing published in a Korean journal.

cheolsu wrote:
Seoul_newbie wrote:
Also, their salaries are no where near equal to their Korean counterparts (average 60 -100,000). What does that tell you?
It tells me that someone with a PhD makes more than someone with an MA.

Quote:
Reading other threads on this forum, it seems that universities, like hagwons and public schools, prefer to hire on a contractual basis, its hard to renew a contract, and its nearly impossible to actually get tenure there.
It's hard to get tenure anywhere. No one is going to get tenure without a PhD, and most EFL instructors don't have one. There are posters here who are on the tenure track, and they will tell you that when a foreigner actually deserves to be hired for a tenure-track position, they will be hired for one. Otherwise, why would someone with an MA be given tenure when Koreans with an MA would never be given tenure? I've assumed that Koreans without a PhD don't get tenure, but if it's common for tenure-track positions at Korean universities to be filled by those with MAs, please let me know.
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cheolsu



Joined: 16 Jan 2009

PostPosted: Tue Jan 29, 2013 10:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

You're right. I acknowledge that life here as a foreign academic isn't easy and there certainly are issues of the sort you mentioned, but those issues are different from paying an Australian with an MA TESOL less than a published Korean PhD, or giving tenure to the latter but not the former.
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Seoul_newbie



Joined: 29 Nov 2012
Location: Seoul

PostPosted: Tue Jan 29, 2013 10:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

You can't keep comparing people with diff. academic qualifications. This topic is about Korea rotating through less qualified (work experience-wise) entry level teachers, rather than sticking with the more experienced candidates they already have.
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cheolsu



Joined: 16 Jan 2009

PostPosted: Tue Jan 29, 2013 11:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

This topic is about the claim that, for entry-level positions, inexperienced teachers are preferred. That is, generally speaking, true for a number of reasons. I was responding to the quote below from Nautilus, as well as your complaints about working at Korea universities.

Quote:
Picking up higher qualifications may be useful if you want to teach in other countries which take English language-learning seriously.

But don't pretend they are of any use whatsoever in Korea. There is no career ladder here, nor is there any incentive for anyone staying in Korea long term to upgrade their credentials.
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Konglishman



Joined: 14 Sep 2007
Location: Nanjing

PostPosted: Tue Jan 29, 2013 11:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

cheolsu wrote:
You're right. I acknowledge that life here as a foreign academic isn't easy and there certainly are issues of the sort you mentioned, but those issues are different from paying an Australian with an MA TESOL less than a published Korean PhD, or giving tenure to the latter but not the former.


Yes, I would certainly agree with that.
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nautilus



Joined: 26 Nov 2005
Location: Je jump, Tu jump, oui jump!

PostPosted: Tue Jan 29, 2013 11:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The jobs you're talking about are only 5% of the total esl jobs available. Even then, they do not offer tenure and will rotate you out the moment a young blonde applies. They're not stable career jobs, they're a dog and pony show like all the rest.

The vast majority- 95% of the jobs- which is what we're talking about- have the same standard pay and conditions. Beyond a BA, qualifications and experience count for nothing.

Why would anyone want to to spend a fortune gaining an MA, M. Ed or Ph. D just to teach esl to sub-adults in a glorified hogwon in Korea?
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cheolsu



Joined: 16 Jan 2009

PostPosted: Tue Jan 29, 2013 11:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I give up. You're right. Nobody should ever upgrade their qualifications. Here's why:

1. Ninety-five percent of jobs don't care about qualifications or experience.

2. Five percent of jobs do care about qualifications or experience, letting you make maybe double what you make in the other 95% of jobs for doing half the work for two-thirds of a year, if that.

3. However, nobody should want to make double what they make and be on vacation for so long that they could buy a house in Thailand and put it to good use, because why would anyone want to to spend a fortune gaining an MA, M. Ed or Ph. D just to teach esl to sub-adults in a glorified hogwon in Korea?

Instead of spending a fortune to make an even bigger fortune (my master's degree will pay for itself in two years), just come here instead to bitch about how no one takes you seriously even though you are a university graduate.
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fustiancorduroy



Joined: 12 Jan 2007

PostPosted: Wed Jan 30, 2013 2:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Who's Your Daddy? wrote:
The most successful teacher I know has been in Korea 10 years. He hasn't upgraded his skills or studied Korean. Within 2 months of working here he was making 5 Mil a month, and has been doing that for 10 years. The guy is loaded. He makes the money because he works like a dog.

90% of the jobs are teaching kids.
90% are entry level.
90% pay 2.2 plus housing.

You make more money by teaching more.


Your friend has good work ethic, but it sounds like he's working two entry-level jobs to make his money. 5 million a month is nothing to sneeze at, but it's not really impressive if he "works like a dog." Getting a master's degree allows you to make more per hour, possibly at a university, so you can make the same amount of money and work less. And someone who's lived here 10 years and doesn't know enough Korean to, say, make a wire transfer at the bank or call the electric company and make a complaint about his bill isn't really impressive at all.
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Seoul_newbie



Joined: 29 Nov 2012
Location: Seoul

PostPosted: Wed Jan 30, 2013 2:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I do think that increasing academic qualifications matter more here than work experience. So adding to your education with an MA is a good choice and will give the salary bump that won't be possible even with three years of work experience and excellent reviews.
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some waygug-in



Joined: 25 Jan 2003

PostPosted: Wed Jan 30, 2013 5:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Or you could just move home and forget the whole ball of nonsense which

is what much of the EFL world seems to be.
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PRagic



Joined: 24 Feb 2006

PostPosted: Wed Jan 30, 2013 6:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bingo. At universities, the pay scale is exactly identical no matter the nationaliy. I've never met a Korean lecturer, let alone a professor, who doesn't have their doctorate.

Salaries start at 60ish and jump with time in grade, and then after each subsequent promotion. By the time you make associate professor, you're looking at 70-80 million/year with a two course per semester load. Some universities demand an extra course or two a year. One tenured as a full professor, there is another nice bump in pay. Salaries are about on par with a state university in the US. There are other opportunities to do short programs, too, depending on your discipline, and those lectures pay 1 million each, usually for about 3 hours.
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nautilus



Joined: 26 Nov 2005
Location: Je jump, Tu jump, oui jump!

PostPosted: Wed Jan 30, 2013 7:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

cheolsu wrote:
my master's degree will pay for itself in two years.


Must be a cheap online thing then.

If you're going to get a decent masters from a respectable university you're looking at about 60K.

Check out eg
https://gradschool.duke.edu/financial_support/coa/masters%20costs.php


Even if you're single, live on wafers and never ever go out, you're still not likely to save 60M won in two years even at the best Uni job.
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World Traveler



Joined: 29 May 2009

PostPosted: Wed Jan 30, 2013 7:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

nautilus wrote:
If you're going to get a decent masters from a respectable university you're looking at about 60k.

And tack on another 60k for two years of lost wages.
Also, a masters degree doesn't even guarantee a uni job anymore. (Who knows how high the bar will be set once you get it. Masters plus uni experience?)
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Seoul_newbie



Joined: 29 Nov 2012
Location: Seoul

PostPosted: Wed Jan 30, 2013 1:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

No. Your pay WILL be different based on your nationality. For e.g. Indian professors get paid less than Korean professors.
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Weigookin74



Joined: 26 Oct 2009

PostPosted: Wed Jan 30, 2013 5:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

fustiancorduroy wrote:
Who's Your Daddy? wrote:
The most successful teacher I know has been in Korea 10 years. He hasn't upgraded his skills or studied Korean. Within 2 months of working here he was making 5 Mil a month, and has been doing that for 10 years. The guy is loaded. He makes the money because he works like a dog.

90% of the jobs are teaching kids.
90% are entry level.
90% pay 2.2 plus housing.

You make more money by teaching more.


Your friend has good work ethic, but it sounds like he's working two entry-level jobs to make his money. 5 million a month is nothing to sneeze at, but it's not really impressive if he "works like a dog." Getting a master's degree allows you to make more per hour, possibly at a university, so you can make the same amount of money and work less. And someone who's lived here 10 years and doesn't know enough Korean to, say, make a wire transfer at the bank or call the electric company and make a complaint about his bill isn't really impressive at all.


Most unis ask for a Masters degree but still only pay 2.2ish million won, though you may get a little more vacation time. There are a few, very few jobs that pay well enough to make it worth it.
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