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The only good foreigner....is a 'new' foreigner?
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edwardcatflap



Joined: 22 Mar 2009

PostPosted: Wed Jan 30, 2013 5:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Most unis ask for a Masters degree but still only pay 2.2ish million won, though you may get a little more vacation time. There are a few, very few jobs that pay well enough to make it worth it.


True. Making a good living at most universities largely depends on what extras are available. E.g. examining, proof reading, adult classes in the early morning, overtime at a decent rate, camps in the vacation etc... For some of these being in a big city helps a lot. With the amount of down time you have and the opportunity to get involved in these extras, it'd be pretty easy to double your salary and pay off your MA debts.
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swashbuckler



Joined: 20 Nov 2010

PostPosted: Wed Jan 30, 2013 6:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think there are valid arguements on both sides.

There is obviously a lot of hiring/firing and turnover that goes on, even at the univeristy level for non-tenure EFL lecturer positions. I think a big part of this is due to the fact that almost all of these jobs are still one or two-year contract basis, and therefore can afford little long-term stability. (One older guy I worked with on my last job had been in Korea for 15 years and had jumped around to at least five different uni jobs during that time. And he was 60 but STILL got job offers this time around). Of course, agism and sexism probably still probably play a role for many jobs, depending on who is doing the hiring (this is Korea after all).

Having said that, there obviously ARE also uni jobs out there that value the things Cheoulsu is taking about and put value on educational qualifications and experience (esp uni experience) over things like physical attractiveness. Of course, at least for the freshman English courses, the young beautiful and/or charming teachers probably stand a better chance of getting away with being a shit teacher, but that's a different story Rolling Eyes
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swashbuckler



Joined: 20 Nov 2010

PostPosted: Wed Jan 30, 2013 6:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

fustiancorduroy wrote:
Your friend has good work ethic, but it sounds like he's working two entry-level jobs to make his money. 5 million a month is nothing to sneeze at, but it's not really impressive if he "works like a dog." Getting a master's degree allows you to make more per hour, possibly at a university, so you can make the same amount of money and work less.


I'm not sure what his definition if "working like a dog" is but I agree that making a decent living with a uni job comes down to supplementary work/privates you're allowed to do outside of your basic schedule. The standard uni job pays 2.7-3.3 a month for 12-15 hours a week (INCLUDING the housing allowance) for an MA holder.


Last edited by swashbuckler on Wed Jan 30, 2013 8:05 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Seoul_newbie



Joined: 29 Nov 2012
Location: Seoul

PostPosted: Wed Jan 30, 2013 7:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

With the influx of unemployed MAs and PhDs, these salaries may go down and stay at the 2.2 level for quite some time. Many ads now state that no housing is provided. Such perks may completely disappear.
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PRagic



Joined: 24 Feb 2006

PostPosted: Wed Jan 30, 2013 7:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

@ Seoul-newbia: You say, "No. Your pay WILL be different based on your nationality. For e.g. Indian professors get paid less than Korean professors."

I'd love to know where you're getting your information. This is NOT TRUE, at least at the two universities where I've held (and currently hold) a tenure track slot. At private universities, salaries can sometimes be negotiated, but a lower salary would only be offered because the quality of the degree, research, or the actual rank/pay grade might be different. At national universities, salaries are fixed based on strict scales.

I personally know a professor who is Indian working over here. He spent a great deal of his time researching at NASA prior to accepting his current job. Believe me, he makes just as much or more than his K. peers.
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PRagic



Joined: 24 Feb 2006

PostPosted: Wed Jan 30, 2013 7:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Man, some of these salaries are insanely low. I taught a couple of semesters university ESL between when I finished my MBA and when I started my Ph.D. This was 1999 and I was getting 2.5 a month and the university provided us with housing. I was making more than my university salary on the outside every month, and killing it over the breaks. We taught 15 hours a week, and had either a 3 or 4 day schedule. No teaching over the fully paid breaks. My wife was working at the time, and I think we banked damn near 100 that year. Guess times must have changed.
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Alum



Joined: 09 Jan 2013

PostPosted: Wed Jan 30, 2013 8:07 pm    Post subject: Re: The only good foreigner....is a 'new' foreigner? Reply with quote

"How can you not know the score by now? In the eyes of Korean employers the only good foreigner is a new one. For all their complaining about 'unqualified teachers' they don't really want experienced teachers. They want young grads who will be overwhelmed by the new experience of working in Asia and who don't know the game. People who have been around for a while, regardless of their credentials and teaching experience, are always going to be overlooked in favor of the 24 year old just out of college."

What do you think? Is this analysis too cynical? Are there other factors at play? Or does it hit the proverbial nail on the head?

Sounds like just another whiner… There are plenty of places in Korea who want good teachers, and not just a "green" someone to keep kids occupied for a few hours a day. Finding hakwons that are interested in educating may be harder to find, so don't stay there, duh! Improve your own education if you value education. What BS that you have to be young to get a job in Korea! If you have only a BA in some totally unrelated field and want to find the great jobs in Korea, you may be in for some struggles depending on the job market at the time. If you have a teaching background, degree(s) beyond a BA and can actually teach, you have the best chances at jobs whatever your age. I was hired at a hakwon in my late 40's fresh out of Peace Corps, EPIK when 50, and 2 different universities after that. Take responsibility for yourself, not blame your situation on some "THEY"...
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swashbuckler



Joined: 20 Nov 2010

PostPosted: Wed Jan 30, 2013 8:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sorry, I mean to write that 2.7 to 3.3 to include a housing ALLOWANCE, not housing.
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Konglishman



Joined: 14 Sep 2007
Location: Nanjing

PostPosted: Wed Jan 30, 2013 8:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

In that case, PRagic, I know where you are working. I also worked there before leaving Korea last August. Yes, in that particular department due its high profile nature, the Indian professor was able to get an unbelievably high salary mainly due to him having been at NASA before.

However, in certain other academic departments which employ foreign professors on 2 year or even 1 year contracts (in 1 professor's case), there is no transparent salary scale. I asked about it and was told that it was secret.

PRagic wrote:
@ Seoul-newbia: You say, "No. Your pay WILL be different based on your nationality. For e.g. Indian professors get paid less than Korean professors."

I'd love to know where you're getting your information. This is NOT TRUE, at least at the two universities where I've held (and currently hold) a tenure track slot. At private universities, salaries can sometimes be negotiated, but a lower salary would only be offered because the quality of the degree, research, or the actual rank/pay grade might be different. At national universities, salaries are fixed based on strict scales.

I personally know a professor who is Indian working over here. He spent a great deal of his time researching at NASA prior to accepting his current job. Believe me, he makes just as much or more than his K. peers.
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Konglishman



Joined: 14 Sep 2007
Location: Nanjing

PostPosted: Wed Jan 30, 2013 9:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

By the way, it really is a systematic issue in Korean universities. I would consider the thread below from the Chronicle to be second hand anecdotal evidence of that. Of course, I do think there are some universities such as GIST which have done a good job of totally avoiding problems such as pay discrimination based on nationality.

http://chronicle.com/forums/index.php/topic,65535.msg1469883.html#msg1469883
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PRagic



Joined: 24 Feb 2006

PostPosted: Thu Jan 31, 2013 2:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

That prof and I don't work at the same university. I know him from a national level committee we are both on.
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PREEST



Joined: 20 Jan 2013

PostPosted: Thu Jan 31, 2013 2:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

In Korea you are to listen to the boss and not challenge him. You do what you are told and hold your tongue if you disagree (something foreigners are not always good at, myself included). This is how Korean society often works. So it makes sense that they might prefer newbies, as they will do what is required of them and not really ask many questions or challenge anything. Once you have been in the game a while, you know that there are ulterior motives etc. They don't want people challenging them or perhaps questioning why certain decisions are being made etc. It's the foreign staff that have been there a while and are more comfortable in their surroundings that might express concern, but certainly not a new comer. They don't need anyone who might rock the boat. They want to make decisions without consultation and you can't do that wit the experienced.

This is how I found things to be. My greasy boss making decisions on the sly and telling us after the fact. If you were new, would you say anything? Probably not. Well I used to from time to time, and I knew they didn't like it.

I'm a Kiwi by the way, and I agree with what your Kiwi mates analysis~
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silkhighway



Joined: 24 Oct 2010
Location: Canada

PostPosted: Thu Jan 31, 2013 8:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think you guys are overthinking it. I think staff at public schools and hagwons prefer new faces, because, well, they're new faces. Out with the familiar and boring old and in with the exciting new. It's pure entertainment value. Let's face it, foreigners being hired to teach EFL in Korean hagwons and public schools always had little substance over and above the entertainment they provided. It's a generalization, I know, but I think it's true for the majority.
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World Traveler



Joined: 29 May 2009

PostPosted: Thu Jan 31, 2013 5:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

creeper1 wrote:
Otherside wrote:
newb wrote:
You'll walk on water in Korea if you're young (20's) blond and blue eyed female. She'll be worshipped like a goddess of EFL teacher.


True that. I had an interview at a public school yesterday, I was the second-last one. Absolutely nailed it. Usually the hiring committee tries to play it cool and says "we'll get back to you", this time I got "Please don't take any other jobs we'll call you tomorrow". As I'm walking out, I see the final candidate, Attractive N.American female in her 20s.

Talk about a buzz kill, It felt like I was at the football tryouts with Messi.


Well be sure to update us on if you landed the job. WTF anyway! PS schools doing in person interviews???? Question

I thought these jobs were given out to waygooks doing, at most, a skype or telephone interview.

I just saw an ad on a Seoul job board for a Jinju public elementary school job. The ad said applicants would have to go to a face to face interview at the school in order to be considered. But Jinju is five hours away from Seoul. Unbelievable that they are making people travel all that way just for a shot at being hired. How many applicants will there be I wonder. How many will go there just to be rejected? This saturated market blows.
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12ax7



Joined: 07 Nov 2009

PostPosted: Sat Feb 02, 2013 7:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

nautilus wrote:
cheolsu wrote:
my master's degree will pay for itself in two years.


Must be a cheap online thing then.

If you're going to get a decent masters from a respectable university you're looking at about 60K.

Check out eg
https://gradschool.duke.edu/financial_support/coa/masters%20costs.php


Even if you're single, live on wafers and never ever go out, you're still not likely to save 60M won in two years even at the best Uni job.


Right, because all the good universities charge an arm and a leg for tuition. Rolling Eyes


Last edited by 12ax7 on Sat Feb 02, 2013 8:17 am; edited 1 time in total
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