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Schools Advertising No Pension/Health
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fustiancorduroy



Joined: 12 Jan 2007

PostPosted: Sat Feb 16, 2013 11:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

edwardcatflap wrote:
Quote:
I also mention my situation because it illustrates that working as an IC is not innately illegal or a stupid act


Actually, claiming that you are an IC when you are really employed by a company, as you do, is illegal. So when you don't pay your taxes at source you are actually just breaking the law not cleverly avoiding tax as you seem to think you are.


Read the post below yours. What is illegal about working as an IC? Please cite your information. If you cannot, then please stop spreading misinformation. Thank you.
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edwardcatflap



Joined: 22 Mar 2009

PostPosted: Sun Feb 17, 2013 12:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
There's nothing illegal about it, not sure where you're getting that info from, but it's wrong (at least was a couple years ago). A lot of Koreans are hired as IC's. If it were illegal to be hired as an IC in Korea, why would there be a box to check on the tax form for it? Why would the tax office have no issue with me only paying 3.3% after my wife and I were audited? Why would the MOE sign off on it? Why would it be ok with immigration? And why, when I had a labor dispute with one of the schools I worked at, did the Labor Board mention nothing about it after studying my contract? Why when audited by the National Tax Service was I not punished for cheating on my taxes?

Don't spread false information on the internet about things you think you know about but don't..



So your only argument for what you do being legal is that you haven't been caught yet so it must be Rolling Eyes

Of course registering as an IC is not in itself illegal but registering as an IC when you work full time for a company as an employee is. Why? Because you and your company are lying on the tax forms. Lying about anything on a tax form is against the law I know that much. In order for you to be caught out and punished for lying on the tax form somebody would have to decide it's worth investigating and go into the relationship between you and your employer. This does happen occasionally but the tax office has probably got bigger fish to fry - as a result of all the other big corporations around with similar upstanding views about civic responsibility to yours.
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thebearofbundang



Joined: 02 Sep 2012
Location: Bundang

PostPosted: Sun Feb 17, 2013 12:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

You should try reading my post again.. You know, the part about my family being audited by the Tax Office in 2008 and told we were all good. Any other make believe laws I should be worried about breaking?

Also, I said this is when I had worked at the After School gig in 2008. The laws may have changed since then. I no longer teach here, so I don't wanna make stuff up about the current laws pretending like I know what I'm talking about Smile
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edwardcatflap



Joined: 22 Mar 2009

PostPosted: Sun Feb 17, 2013 1:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
You should try reading my post again.. You know, the part about my family being audited by the Tax Office in 2008 and told we were all good. Any other make believe laws I should be worried about breaking?

Also, I said this is when I had worked at the After School gig in 2008. The laws may have changed since then. I no longer teach here, so I don't wanna make stuff up about the current laws pretending like I know what I'm talking about


Don't know about after school contracts but the guy I was arguing with works at a private hagwan. He works there, the school is his employer. Therefore putting on a tax form that he is an independent contractor is lying. That was my point


Last edited by edwardcatflap on Sun Feb 17, 2013 2:31 am; edited 1 time in total
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hogwonguy1979



Joined: 22 Dec 2003
Location: the racoon den

PostPosted: Sun Feb 17, 2013 2:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

edwardcatflap wrote:
Quote:
You should try reading my post again.. You know, the part about my family being audited by the Tax Office in 2008 and told we were all good. Any other make believe laws I should be worried about breaking?

Also, I said this is when I had worked at the After School gig in 2008. The laws may have changed since then. I no longer teach here, so I don't wanna make stuff up about the current laws pretending like I know what I'm talking about


Don't know about after school contracts but the guy I was arguing with works at a private hagwan. He works there, the school is his employee. Therefore putting on a tax form that he is an independent contractor is lying. That was my point


and there lies the bs about being a FOREIGN IC here being legal. Immig in order to grant the company the visa (remember the company asks immig to give you the visa) they make promises to immig like you being a regular employee yada yada. So the employer by employing you as an IC is breaking their agreement with immig and there are penalties for employers (fines, not being allowed to hire foreigners on certain visas etc)

Also in reality the employer who doesn't give you permission to work at second workplace is also violating the nature of an IC since by not giving permission you are then in reality a "regular employee" which by them not paying NHIC/pension puts them in violation of the labor code.

Why people who are on E2's continue to take these positions is beyond me. Just the health insurance is reason enough but younger people are stupid and think illness/accidents wont happen to them.

Just search Bill Kapoun here and you'll learn why you should never take an IC position EVER!!!!!
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NYC_Gal 2.0



Joined: 10 Dec 2010

PostPosted: Sun Feb 17, 2013 2:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I would never want to live without health coverage. I have both regular national health and secondary private insurance that covers hospitalization (because national only pays for part of it.)

As for the schools advertising those crappy jobs: there will always be suckers. Let them enjoy working red days.
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big_fella1



Joined: 08 Dec 2005

PostPosted: Sun Feb 17, 2013 4:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

If you work for multiple employers in multiple locations, then you are an independent contractor. To do this legally you need Korean citizenship, or an F2, F4,F5, F6, E5, or E7 visa. Good luck getting the last 2 to teach English.

If you work in one location with a boss then you are an employee.

Ontheway claims that this is legal under tax law, I don't know. It is illegal under labour law, the national health act and national pension act.

The problem in Korea is red lights only mean stop at some intersections. The hagwons screw the staff, btw predominately Korean, but expats as well knowing that they can get away with it.

The only way this will stop is if the Korean staff take action, but my understanding is when a Korean staff member makes a stand they are quietly paid off, whilst the majority accept being screwed over because of the loss of face, they signed the contract after all.

It is possible that CDI settled their case with the employees with strict non-disclosure provisions. I've heard the case was was over the non-payment of health insurance, pension, and retirement allowances as the employees were claimed to be "independent contractors". The other alternative the labour board is sitting on the case because they see worse cases of employee abuse. If the CDI employees were paid around 35,000 an hour, this is 10 times what an employee gets working in a convenience store and around 7 times the legal minimum wage.

Most hagwons are struggling these days as Korean families have found their disposable incomes dwindling, and there is only so long you can keep piling on debt, unless you are the US governement. I expect many hagwon employees will lose their jobs in the future, unless hagwons can convert to kindergartens, which are paid for by the government.
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Skippy



Joined: 18 Jan 2003
Location: Daejeon

PostPosted: Sun Feb 17, 2013 4:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

[quote="hogwonguy1979"]

and there lies the bs about being a FOREIGN IC here being legal. Immig in order to grant the company the visa (remember the company asks immig to give you the visa) they make promises to immig like you being a regular employee yada yada. So the employer by employing you as an IC is breaking their agreement with immig and there are penalties for employers (fines, not being allowed to hire foreigners on certain visas etc)

I like this point. I agree with ontheway about the IC. It can proove to be beneficial. Yet this point always sticks in my craw being an IC. Is why does immigration not care when a certain spirit of the law is ignored and broken because of another law.

Quote:
Also in reality the employer who doesn't give you permission to work at second workplace is also violating the nature of an IC since by not giving permission you are then in reality a "regular employee" which by them not paying NHIC/pension puts them in violation of the labor code.


If a person is an IC, the person should be an IC. With all the benefits and responsibilities that come with it. If I want the ability to choose to work other places, then pension and health insurance becomes my responsibility.

Quote:
Why people who are on E2's continue to take these positions is beyond me. Just the health insurance is reason enough but younger people are stupid and think illness/accidents wont happen to them.


This one us easy to know why. Because each new intake of NETS is filled with lazy or disinterested people. Yes, some people trust to much and get duped by recruiters or schools. There will always people like that. Most learn later from that mistake. Actually surprising is NO?!

Next, most people to fucked to care to do some thinking or work to help themselves. That is until things go sideways. Then usually it is too late.
AND to think! To get a job as an E2 you need a University degree. In order to get that degree, people learn to think and research for 4 years. Apparently those skills do not stick very long after University for many people.

Quote:
Just search Bill Kapoun here and you'll learn why you should never take an IC position EVER!!!!!


Who is that? Sorry! Is that some guy from a while ago. News more then a month ago is too long to remember about. Live in present man! Plus that requires searching and reading old posts. Is he on Facebook? I would have remembered seeing something. Maybe I "liked" one his pictures. I do not have the time to look in who this Bill guy is. I am busy playing Magic cards right now and later I am going to go to the bar. When I have problem I will just post and people here will just help me. Right!? I will rely all upon other people to listen to my whines and complaints. People will solve it for me.........

I could continue on with the whine rant, but I won't. Just in general most NETs here forget things, did not learn about it, or simply do not care to know things. If people do not learn to do some thinking and accept responsibility or do some work to help themselves, then whatever happens to them they deserve. Survival people is not an option to take lightly.

PS. I, too did learn the lesson of Bill Kapoun. That is why after many years, I always get insurance! I rarely get sick, but you have seen the taxi and bus drivers here!
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ontheway



Joined: 24 Aug 2005
Location: Somewhere under the rainbow...

PostPosted: Sun Feb 17, 2013 4:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

It is legal to work as an IC because the Tax office makes the rules. Only the Tax office can make the rules. The Labor office and Immigration cannot - it is out of their jurisdiction. There is nothing in obtaining the E2 visa that requires that the sponsor of the visa be an employer. The IC relationship satisfies Immigration requirements. It isn't up to Immigration - it's up to the Tax office.

So, it is perfectly legal for an E2 visa holder to be an Independent Contractor.

It is also perfectly legal to be an IC while working at only one location on a single contract. This is true in the US as well. Having only one contract doesn't suddenly turn that into an employer/employee relationship.

In Korea the rules for being an IC are still very loose and unlikely to change.

Many posters here are trying to make up their own law. You cannot change what is.

In Korea, at the presnt time, it is perfectly legal for an E2 teacher to work at a single location with hours set by the school and still be legally registered as an Independent Contractor.

None of your wishes, dreams, personal feelings about the word "independent" (it's different that the Korean in any case) or personal feeling that somehow Labor or Immigration can make rules they are legally prohibited from making, or the way things are in your home country and therefore should be in Korea - have any impact on the reality of being a legal IC in Korea.


However, for anyone who is working as an IC and is not self-registered for National Health Insurance and National Pension - you are NOT a legal IC unless you sign yourself up for these things.
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big_fella1



Joined: 08 Dec 2005

PostPosted: Sun Feb 17, 2013 5:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

ontheway wrote:
It is legal to work as an IC because the Tax office makes the rules. Only the Tax office can make the rules. The Labor office and Immigration cannot - it is out of their jurisdiction. There is nothing in obtaining the E2 visa that requires that the sponsor of the visa be an employer. The IC relationship satisfies Immigration requirements. It isn't up to Immigration - it's up to the Tax office.

So, it is perfectly legal for an E2 visa holder to be an Independent Contractor.

It is also perfectly legal to be an IC while working at only one location on a single contract. This is true in the US as well. Having only one contract doesn't suddenly turn that into an employer/employee relationship.

In Korea the rules for being an IC are still very loose and unlikely to change.

Many posters here are trying to make up their own law. You cannot change what is.

In Korea, at the presnt time, it is perfectly legal for an E2 teacher to work at a single location with hours set by the school and still be legally registered as an Independent Contractor.

None of your wishes, dreams, personal feelings about the word "independent" (it's different that the Korean in any case) or personal feeling that somehow Labor or Immigration can make rules they are legally prohibited from making, or the way things are in your home country and therefore should be in Korea - have any impact on the reality of being a legal IC in Korea.


However, for anyone who is working as an IC and is not self-registered for National Health Insurance and National Pension - you are NOT a legal IC unless you sign yourself up for these things.


Wow you used big letters, I must be wrong.

The again maybe not.

I suggest that you stop using big letters and provide some evidence.

If you read:
http://www.thekoreanlawblog.com/2010/11/audit-proof-your-independent-contractor.html

You will find dodgy independent contractor arrangements are not legal in the US or Korea no matter what your visa or citizenship.

I will accept the evidence in English or Korean, or even Hanja if that's what it's written in. I look forward to a debate without big letters.

i.e. It's time put up or shut up, please.
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ontheway



Joined: 24 Aug 2005
Location: Somewhere under the rainbow...

PostPosted: Sun Feb 17, 2013 7:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

big_fella1 wrote:
ontheway wrote:
It is legal to work as an IC because the Tax office makes the rules. Only the Tax office can make the rules. The Labor office and Immigration cannot - it is out of their jurisdiction. There is nothing in obtaining the E2 visa that requires that the sponsor of the visa be an employer. The IC relationship satisfies Immigration requirements. It isn't up to Immigration - it's up to the Tax office.

So, it is perfectly legal for an E2 visa holder to be an Independent Contractor.

It is also perfectly legal to be an IC while working at only one location on a single contract. This is true in the US as well. Having only one contract doesn't suddenly turn that into an employer/employee relationship.

In Korea the rules for being an IC are still very loose and unlikely to change.

Many posters here are trying to make up their own law. You cannot change what is.

In Korea, at the presnt time, it is perfectly legal for an E2 teacher to work at a single location with hours set by the school and still be legally registered as an Independent Contractor.

None of your wishes, dreams, personal feelings about the word "independent" (it's different that the Korean in any case) or personal feeling that somehow Labor or Immigration can make rules they are legally prohibited from making, or the way things are in your home country and therefore should be in Korea - have any impact on the reality of being a legal IC in Korea.


However, for anyone who is working as an IC and is not self-registered for National Health Insurance and National Pension - you are NOT a legal IC unless you sign yourself up for these things.


Wow you used big letters, I must be wrong.

The again maybe not.

I suggest that you stop using big letters and provide some evidence.

If you read:
http://www.thekoreanlawblog.com/2010/11/audit-proof-your-independent-contractor.html

You will find dodgy independent contractor arrangements are not legal in the US or Korea no matter what your visa or citizenship.

I will accept the evidence in English or Korean, or even Hanja if that's what it's written in. I look forward to a debate without big letters.

i.e. It's time put up or shut up, please.



I suggest that you check out your own link. It is written entirely from a US perspective. It states that you should look at how things work in the US for ICs to protect yourself precisely because the author apparently knows nothing about Korea.

The point the author makes is this: If you are an American businessperson, you can protect yourself by going by the US rules. Since they are more strict than the Korean rules you should be safe.

However, we are in Korea. We can go by the Korean rules.

Score for you is zero.


Korea has different rules from the US. Part of the confusion is that the Korean law doesn't just include what we think of as "Independent" workers, but other kinds of casual, part time and temporary workers. In Korea half of all workers are working under IC rules. The overwhelming majority work in a single location for one entity.

For Korean schools utilizing IC teachers, however, they should not prevent the teacher from taking additional teaching contract positions with other schools. Having an IC who merely chooses not to enter into another contract is legal and different from a contractual provision or administrative policy that prohibits the IC from taking another contract with another school, which could jeopardize the legality of the IC status.
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big_fella1



Joined: 08 Dec 2005

PostPosted: Sun Feb 17, 2013 1:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ontheway wrote:
big_fella1 wrote:
ontheway wrote:
It is legal to work as an IC because the Tax office makes the rules. Only the Tax office can make the rules. The Labor office and Immigration cannot - it is out of their jurisdiction. There is nothing in obtaining the E2 visa that requires that the sponsor of the visa be an employer. The IC relationship satisfies Immigration requirements. It isn't up to Immigration - it's up to the Tax office.

So, it is perfectly legal for an E2 visa holder to be an Independent Contractor.

It is also perfectly legal to be an IC while working at only one location on a single contract. This is true in the US as well. Having only one contract doesn't suddenly turn that into an employer/employee relationship.

In Korea the rules for being an IC are still very loose and unlikely to change.

Many posters here are trying to make up their own law. You cannot change what is.

In Korea, at the presnt time, it is perfectly legal for an E2 teacher to work at a single location with hours set by the school and still be legally registered as an Independent Contractor.

None of your wishes, dreams, personal feelings about the word "independent" (it's different that the Korean in any case) or personal feeling that somehow Labor or Immigration can make rules they are legally prohibited from making, or the way things are in your home country and therefore should be in Korea - have any impact on the reality of being a legal IC in Korea.


However, for anyone who is working as an IC and is not self-registered for National Health Insurance and National Pension - you are NOT a legal IC unless you sign yourself up for these things.


Wow you used big letters, I must be wrong.

The again maybe not.

I suggest that you stop using big letters and provide some evidence.

If you read:
http://www.thekoreanlawblog.com/2010/11/audit-proof-your-independent-contractor.html

You will find dodgy independent contractor arrangements are not legal in the US or Korea no matter what your visa or citizenship.

I will accept the evidence in English or Korean, or even Hanja if that's what it's written in. I look forward to a debate without big letters.

i.e. It's time put up or shut up, please.



I suggest that you check out your own link. It is written entirely from a US perspective. It states that you should look at how things work in the US for ICs to protect yourself.

The point the author makes is this: If you are an American businessperson, you can protect yourself by going by the US rules. Since they are more strict than the Korean rules you should be safe.

However, we are in Korea. We can go by the Korean rules.

Score for you is zero.


Korea has different rules from the US. Part of the confusion is that the Korean law doesn't just include what we think of as "Independent" workers, but other kinds of casual, part time and temporary workers. In Korea half of all workers are working under IC rules. The overwhelming majority work in a single location for one entity.

For Korean schools utilizing IC teachers, however, they should not prevent the teacher from taking additional teaching contract positions with other schools. Having an IC who merely chooses not to enter into another contract is legal and different from a contractual provision or administrative policy that prohibits the IC from taking another contract with another school, which could jeopardize the legality of the IC status.


Oh dear, I'm disappointed. I ask for evidence and you can't provide any, fair enough, but then you criticise mine. You claim that Korea had many IC statuses, but provide no proof.

Let me highlight the bits you need:

Quote:
They (New York Small Business Blog) advise the attorney gave on how to avoid the scrutiny of the government would have also been useful for a client of ours that ran into an issue with the Korean National Tax Service and the Ministry of Labor a few years back.


Once again I ask you to put up some evidence.

Please provide some (or any) evidence a link or source will suffice.

Please note I removed one sentence from your quote in this post as I know the author of the Korean law blog is fluent in Korean and has worked for the Constitutional Court of Korea. Now who didn't read the link? I suggest you edit your post to remove the same.
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hogwonguy1979



Joined: 22 Dec 2003
Location: the racoon den

PostPosted: Sun Feb 17, 2013 2:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

here is a better link going back to my point that when you are treated like a regular employee the employer needs to take the obligations of being a regular employer

http://www.thekoreanlawblog.com/2011/07/korean-independent-contractor-risks.html
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big_fella1



Joined: 08 Dec 2005

PostPosted: Sun Feb 17, 2013 6:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

hogwonguy1979 wrote:
here is a better link going back to my point that when you are treated like a regular employee the employer needs to take the obligations of being a regular employer

http://www.thekoreanlawblog.com/2011/07/korean-independent-contractor-risks.html


Thanks hogwonguy1979 Smile
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dctefl



Joined: 18 Aug 2012

PostPosted: Sun Feb 17, 2013 7:53 pm    Post subject: Re: Schools Advertising No Pension/Health Reply with quote

Whistleblower wrote:
I have noticed more and more schools quite willing to share their non contribution towards the legally required Pension and Health Insurance. For example, there was one school advertised today quite clear suggesting that there was no health or insurance contributions as they were an independent contract offered. How long will these schools get away with this blatant theft?

"Because we offer an independent contract, pension and medical are not offered, therefore not deducted from our employee�s monthly pay. The only monthly deductions are taxes." (ESL Cafe)

I would recommend teachers not to contemplate to apply for this job. The school is pocketing their legally required contributions, you don't a potential pension refund upon leaving the country.


So, I actually applied for this on the day the ad was posted, I happened to be on, hit refresh and there it was.

Had a short really short phone interview and ended up being asked when I could send my documents, closest to a job offer I've had yet.

Asked to be put in touch with a teacher at the school, that went fine, positive answers came back.

Just saw this thread today and it's got me very deer-in-the-headlights. There's obviously a lot of emotion and disagreement about the status of ICs, it now has me wondering about the job and the school itself. Bottom line, is this worth taking? Should I be wary of possibly walking into a bad situation? From some of these views, I'm wondering, is this position above board?

Fair play for raising the point, always good to have issues like this discussed one way or another.
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