Site Search:
 
TEFL International Supports Dave's ESL Cafe
TEFL Courses, TESOL Course, English Teaching Jobs - TEFL International
Korean Job Discussion Forums Forum Index Korean Job Discussion Forums
"The Internet's Meeting Place for ESL/EFL Teachers from Around the World!"
 
 FAQFAQ   SearchSearch   MemberlistMemberlist   UsergroupsUsergroups   RegisterRegister 
 ProfileProfile   Log in to check your private messagesLog in to check your private messages   Log inLog in 

Koreans Out Of Their Usual Element Ignoring You
Goto page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9  Next
 
Post new topic   Reply to topic    Korean Job Discussion Forums Forum Index -> General Discussion Forum
View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
KimchiNinja



Joined: 01 May 2012
Location: Gangnam

PostPosted: Thu Feb 21, 2013 8:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

John Stamos jr. wrote:
Koreans aren't social people, it's a low trust society.


Meh, I would say they are a VERY social people; out every night socializing, constantly texting each other in subway/office when not together, going out for lunch every day with coworkers, and almost never seen alone during lunch/dinner hour. But they do NOT socialize with people they do not know (strangers on the subway).
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Steelrails



Joined: 12 Mar 2009
Location: Earth, Solar System

PostPosted: Thu Feb 21, 2013 10:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Um, the reason for the policy is irrelevant if the people are separated based on race. That is racism. In this case the boss is separating his workers based on their race, yes that is racist. This is pretty simple.


No, it's not that simple and the reasons are always relevant. Anyone who says something like "the reasons are irrelevant" is being intellectually lazy.

They aren't solely separated based on race. He also separated native English speakers from non-native speakers. As I said, in the field of teaching English, there could be good reasons for ensuring a level playing field amongst his non-native English speaking employees when it comes to getting free conversation practice.

Do you know the exact reasons for the policy? It could be motivated by racism, but it could be motivated instead by fairness and equality, in this case fair and equal access to work-related skills training amongst the Korean employees.

Quote:
This is your entire argument in a nutshell. It's always the foreigner's fault.


Read my sentence again. I used the words "maybe". Now to some people that word is a throwaway word, to me it is very essential. If I wanted to blame the foreigner I would say "It is certainly you".

Quote:
but when it comes to specific cases you are always biased toward the Korean person.


And the people who readily blame Koreans are what? Unbiased? The thing is that often people here are rather poor at putting themselves in the other party's shoes and seem to lack the creativity and critical thinking to examine the problem and search for all possible causes. The 'victim' possibilities are obvious, and certainly possible, but they are not always the case. Sometimes its something that might not seem obvious at first but actually has a deeper reason.

That's why I mention something like the equal access to English possibility. One person might say "oh it must be racist" and that's that. But thanks to experience with similar circumstances, I offered another possibility.

Koreans are highly competitive, yes or no? Koreans are often in search of free English lessons, yes or no? Workplace favoritism and equal opportunity are big issues for Koreans, yes or no? If some employees got to hang you with the English staff, but not others, would that be something that someone would complain about and constitute a workplace problem, yes or no? Would the employer have an easy time mandating that the NETs include every employee if they went out socializing or would he have an easier time dictating to his Korean staff, not to hang out?

Quote:
Any thread on here where someone asks for an explanation or reason will just be met with finger pointing from you


Are the situations I listed possible explanations or reasons? Given that multiple posters here have shared experiences that are the complete opposite of the OP's, doesn't it stand to reason that my explanation- that it's likely an individual or localized reaction, either the OP is "weird" or the Koreans he is dealing with are "weird" than it is 'Korean culture'. If it was Korean culture, this phenomenon would happen to EVERYONE.

Heck, at the start I raised the possibility that it could be rural vs. urban reactions and possibly a result of the size of the city the OP was living in. People tend to be colder in bigger cities vs. small towns.

But if one wants explanations and reasons, one has to be prepared to accept that they may be at fault.

Think about this- is such a story a possibility back home? Certainly. Suburbia and 'yankee' or midwestern areas of the US have a reputation for people being 'cold'. If this occurred back home we could certainly say it might be the culture, but we wouldn't take issue with someone wondering if the OP was a weirdo.

Why must it be culture here? Why is it okay to suggest the OP might have a problem if the same thing happened back home, but it's wrong for someone to suggest so if it happens here?
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
John Stamos jr.



Joined: 07 Oct 2012
Location: Namsan

PostPosted: Thu Feb 21, 2013 10:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It's not me. I'm always friendly, smile, and say hello so you can stick your maybe back in the maybe hole. The woman with the room across from who I see almost daily has never once made eye contact with me or even acknowledged my existence. As for the rest of what you wrote... I usually just skim your posts when you're in this pathetic defensive/psychobabble mode, wiggling around blaming Koreans for certain things, blaming other people, and writing a bunch of theoretical garbage that's way too long to endure. You're a Korean dude, you pretend to be objective but you're clearly not when it comes to a lot of stuff that pertains to Korea, the posters with half a brain know you're a bit (to a lot-- depending on the issue) of a blowhard homer when it comes to these things, and that's all that needs to be said.

Anyway, again, this issue has an obvious answer and it's been stated well by a number of posters. I don't really care what Koreans think of me and their social behavior towards me hasn't bothered me for a while since I only work with one co-teacher, and one who is similarly somewhat of an outcast like me being the Korean after school teacher.

I appreciate the people who are open and friendly, though it's mostly women. I briefly dated a girl who was working for MBC when that story came out. Told me it was made by an ajosshi whose daughter was probably dating a foreigner who broke up with her or something and most of the younger people were pretty mad at him about it haha. But, whatever, an ajosshi also approached me for a conversation on the subway a couple weeks ago and it made my day. Definitely a first though. Most of the Korean women at the few marts I visit always smile and seem pleasant. But living in Itaewon reduces the surprise factor when you roll up on some of them. I appreciate the people who are kind and open, but, it's my contention that most Koreans, especially the older ones, are pretty cold people compared to other societies.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Steelrails



Joined: 12 Mar 2009
Location: Earth, Solar System

PostPosted: Fri Feb 22, 2013 8:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
It's not me. I'm always friendly, smile, and say hello so you can stick your maybe back in the maybe hole.


Well that's the other side of 'maybe'. Maybe in your case your coworkers are racists. Maybe they just don't like you. Maybe in the OP's case he is socially awkward and a bit of a creeper. Maybe in his case his coworkers are racists.

But we don't know what the reason "is". All we have are maybes.

Quote:
You're a Korean dude, you pretend to be objective but you're clearly not when it comes to a lot of stuff that pertains to Korea


And you are?

Quote:
the posters with half a brain know you're a bit (to a lot-- depending on the issue) of a blowhard homer when it comes to these things, and that's all that needs to be said.


People who have really gotten to know my posts know that I operate from a genuine dislike of cultural judgments. In the CE forums I consistently stick up for Muslims when a lot of people bash them and call their culture primitive. On other Dave's threads we have people who spout on about black folks being the source of crime and so on, and I consistently object to that. On another thread people were bashing Canadians and I took exception to that.

I genuinely do not like blanket judgments about other cultures, firmly believe that many such things that on the surface we find objectionable, often are rooted in very real concerns, and am keenly aware of the faults within my own culture (many of which mirror faults in the culture being bashed) and do my utmost to put myself in their position and wonder why they feel the way they do and do the things they do.

It's like the person who goes "Muslims are just savages who bomb everyone for no reason". Well, turns out there's the last 50 years of us doing things like building military bases on their land and manipulating their governmental actions and supporting dictators and selling weapons to their enemies. If they did that to us, we might do the same thing.

We are very keen to the faults of Koreans, but how keen are we to the faults Koreans perceive in us. Some of them are quite real and not just media hoopla.

Take for example the OP. He's wondering "Why don't they come up and talk to me" Maybe the Korean is wondering why he doesn't come up and talk to them. Or maybe when he does he unintentionally commits some cultural faux pas that is quite mortifying and not through any fault of his own. There's two sides to every story.

It's fine to be really good at examining others, but how good are we at imagining how others see us?
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
John Stamos jr.



Joined: 07 Oct 2012
Location: Namsan

PostPosted: Fri Feb 22, 2013 9:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm somewhat glad that I got off early and started late.

Quote:
Maybe in your case your coworkers are racists. Maybe they just don't like you.


The woman whose room is next to mine doesn't like me because of who I am, and may possibly be racist? The woman who has never made eye contact with me or acknowledged my existence?

Quote:
All we have are maybes.

aa
Your existence within this forum relies on "maybes". You're a disgruntled gyopo. I'm not claiming to be objaective, I'm just giving my opinion, as a well traveled individual, who is living in Korea presently. You are the Korean guy, claiming to have an objective point of view, while also self-labeling yourself an apologist, which is ironic.

Quote:
People who have really gotten to know my posts know that I operate from a genuine dislike of cultural judgments. In the CE forums I consistently stick up for Muslims when a lot of people bash them and call their culture primitive. On other Dave's threads we have people who spout on about black folks being the source of crime and so on, and I consistently object to that. On another thread people were bashing Canadians and I took exception to that.


And, this is how you get away with portraying yourself as a cultural relativist on here. I can appreciate your points of view of on most of those subjects, especially regarding black people... but you use that as your pseudo objective race card when it happens to apply to Korean people, though you yourself are Korean. I don't believe it. I don't see you as an objective observer of Korean culture, even if you post somewhat relevant examples of your general objectivity towards other groups of people, which I often agree with. I don't buy it, and most people here, from popular opinion, don't as well. This is where you delude yourself. You are a gyopo (maybe I'm getting the lingo wrong) man who has been forced to deal with certain issues originating from you being (from what I recall) an adopted Korean into a white family in Detroit, and who returned to find whatever it is you may be looking for. In all honesty, good luck. But it then becomes a psychological issue, which I believe is what we're confronting right now.

Quote:
We are very keen to the faults of Koreans, but how keen are we to the faults Koreans perceive in us.


It's words like these that help show people your true colors. 'We' live here. Of course, the 'faults of Koreans' are going to be a potent topic. And, you take the other side so often, but why? Because you are Korean. This is the point. You are not an objective observer, you falsify the word 'we' to personify an agenda that, apparently, you yourself aren't even aware of. You are a gyopo with issues. There are plenty of them out there, you are simply one who can't grasp the root of how or why you've come upon the views you take, then you ramble on for ages trying to grapple with them for, what I see, as a form of self-justification. And that's fine. But, you have to mature at some point and stop viewing things from a high school state of mind, or an unbalanced 'find my roots as a Korean' point of view. You're off, but you don't realize it. It might be a difficult path and it might be hard to center yourself "objectively" but I wish you good luck in the pursuit.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Steelrails



Joined: 12 Mar 2009
Location: Earth, Solar System

PostPosted: Fri Feb 22, 2013 6:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

So essentially, all my points regarding Korea are invalid because I am of Korean ethnicity, despite being raised by caucasian Americans. And I'm the one accused of racial bias?

Quote:
with certain issues originating from you being (from what I recall) an adopted Korean into a white family in Detroit


I haven't dealt with any issues regarding adoption. I love my adopted parents and really enjoy being adopted. Where have I talked about 'issues'? Maybe you're thinking about someone like Komerican, who clearly has issues.

Quote:
But it then becomes a psychological issue, which I believe is what we're confronting right now.


So none, of the possibilities I postulated are possible? Instead it is something wrong with me personally? Why don't you discuss the validity of the points I raised, rather than my 'psychology', which I don't think you're really in a position to comment on, unless you are a trained psychologist and can make a proper diagnoses through a message board.

Quote:
And, you take the other side so often, but why? Because you are Korean. This is the point. You are not an objective observer


Did you know that I actually at one point shared and said pretty much every 'basher' sentiment when I lived back in the US and dealt with Korean people? It got to the point where I stopped being friends with most of them. But then this thing called maturity happened. That point where you realize you don't have a monopoly on morality and aren't quite the King S. you think you are. Instead of that liberal-idealist phase where you expect everyone to behave perfectly and focus on the ends, you start to look at the reasons for things. Instead of telling people what they should be doing, you start to listen to why they are doing it.

Now, part of that was my choice to move over here. For one thing, when I did so, I expected the worst as I still held pretty negative opinions (I needed the money). But, I also understood that when you move to another country, you strongly support and follow their customs.

This is going to sound cheesy, but the big influence here isn't "Koreanness", it's Star Trek. What would Captain Picard and Data do? Star Trek seems like a pretty good guide for inter-cultural relations. Be open minded, don't impose your values, don't interfere, respect the local customs. combined with some healthy doses of the Good Book and things like casting stones and looking at specks in other's eyes.

Quote:
You are a gyopo with issues. There are plenty of them out there, you are simply one who can't grasp the root of how or why you've come upon the views you take, then you ramble on for ages trying to grapple with them for, what I see, as a form of self-justification


Did it ever occur to you sir, that some non-Korean posters who have quite negative views might have issues as well? Why isn't their ethnicity called into question?

If some Koreans are inherently biased into defending Korea, is it possible that some non-Koreans are inherently biased towards attacking it? Where are you attacking them? I have consistently gone after posters like Komerican and kinship. Where is your track record of going after basher posters?

Quote:
But, you have to mature at some point and stop viewing things from a high school state of mind.


Says the person who can't even argue the points but instead argues about my ethnicity and 'psychology'.

Quote:
It might be a difficult path and it might be hard to center yourself "objectively" but I wish you good luck in the pursuit.


I don't need your wishes, luck, or condescending tone and lectures about my maturity.

You could be mature and not juvenile and just agree to disagree without talking down to me.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Captain Corea



Joined: 28 Feb 2005
Location: Seoul

PostPosted: Fri Feb 22, 2013 7:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

John Stamos jr. wrote:
Because you are Korean. This is the point. You are not an objective observer, you falsify the word 'we' to personify an agenda that, apparently, you yourself aren't even aware of. You are a gyopo with issues. There are plenty of them out there, you are simply one who can't grasp the root of how or why you've come upon the views you take, then you ramble on for ages trying to grapple with them for, what I see, as a form of self-justification. And that's fine. But, you have to mature at some point and stop viewing things from a high school state of mind, or an unbalanced 'find my roots as a Korean' point of view. You're off, but you don't realize it. It might be a difficult path and it might be hard to center yourself "objectively" but I wish you good luck in the pursuit.


Actually, I feel that it is YOU who are "off" here. I don't agree with SR on many points, or particularly like his posting style, but to throw up the "gyopo with issues" bit is really weak. I doubt you know SR personally, yet you're speaking about him as if you do.

The truth is, we ALL bring baggage to this forum, whether we like it or not. For you to call him out alone in this, and to toss the race/gyopo bit in as well... that's pretty low.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Smithington



Joined: 14 Dec 2011

PostPosted: Fri Feb 22, 2013 8:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Why does anyone bother to read Steelrails posts? Not only are his posts far too long, but we know exactly what he's going to say before we read what he's written. He's a one pony show. Ignore him and hopefully he'll move on.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
byrddogs



Joined: 19 Jun 2009
Location: Shanghai

PostPosted: Fri Feb 22, 2013 8:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Smithington wrote:
Why does anyone bother to read Steelrails posts? Not only are his posts far too long, but we know exactly what he's going to say before we read what he's written. He's a one pony show. Ignore him and hopefully he'll move on.


I don't read his posts. When I see the sock puppet avatar, I tend to lose interest in the thread entirely. The people that do most likely are involved in debating with him.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
John Stamos jr.



Joined: 07 Oct 2012
Location: Namsan

PostPosted: Fri Feb 22, 2013 8:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Smithington wrote:
Why does anyone bother to read Steelrails posts? Not only are his posts far too long, but we know exactly what he's going to say before we read what he's written. He's a one pony show. Ignore him and hopefully he'll move on.


Ain't that the truth.

Quote:
For you to call him out alone in this, and to toss the race/gyopo bit in as well... that's pretty low.


Haha, really? Where are we? Who is he? I understand that you're a somewhat dim-witted Canadian fellow, but let's not be too naive here. Maybe he has issues, maybe he doesn't, I don't really care either way. At the end of the day, he's a Korean guy living in Korea and posting on a Korean forum at maximum capacity. I say it plays a part... whoa, really?! What a "low" and crazy assumption... He's a self-claimed "apologist" and I don't believe him to be as nearly as objective as he claims himself to be when it comes to Korea. I think he's a delusional fraud. And this is not a far out concept, I think a lot of people agree with me. Someone like fermentation is much more impartial and respectable in opinion.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
slothrop



Joined: 03 Feb 2003

PostPosted: Fri Feb 22, 2013 9:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

edit

Last edited by slothrop on Sun Apr 07, 2013 4:18 am; edited 1 time in total
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Steelrails



Joined: 12 Mar 2009
Location: Earth, Solar System

PostPosted: Sat Feb 23, 2013 2:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think John Stamos' point can be summed up as "Koreans are stupid. Korean men are bad. Korean-Americans have issues. Why don't Koreans, Korean men, and Korean-Americans like me? And they are wrong for doing so."

Why would you expect these people to like you and treat you well if all you do is insult them? Reminds me of the Republican Party and wondering why black people don't vote for them.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
John Stamos jr.



Joined: 07 Oct 2012
Location: Namsan

PostPosted: Sat Feb 23, 2013 2:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Steelrails wrote:
I think John Stamos' point can be summed up as "Koreans are stupid. Korean men are bad. Korean-Americans have issues. Why don't Koreans, Korean men, and Korean-Americans like me? And they are wrong for doing so."

Why would you expect these people to like you and treat you well if all you do is insult them? Reminds me of the Republican Party and wondering why black people don't vote for them.


Rolling Eyes

What are you even talking about... My point is that you are biased and often delusional when it comes to matters relating to Korea, despite your claim of being objective. What a loser this guy is.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Captain Corea



Joined: 28 Feb 2005
Location: Seoul

PostPosted: Sat Feb 23, 2013 5:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

John Stamos jr. wrote:


Quote:
For you to call him out alone in this, and to toss the race/gyopo bit in as well... that's pretty low.


Haha, really? Where are we? Who is he? I understand that you're a somewhat dim-witted Canadian fellow, but let's not be too naive here. Maybe he has issues, maybe he doesn't, I don't really care either way. At the end of the day, he's a Korean guy living in Korea and posting on a Korean forum at maximum capacity. I say it plays a part... whoa, really?! What a "low" and crazy assumption... He's a self-claimed "apologist" and I don't believe him to be as nearly as objective as he claims himself to be when it comes to Korea. I think he's a delusional fraud. And this is not a far out concept, I think a lot of people agree with me. Someone like fermentation is much more impartial and respectable in opinion.


So now we're going to make this personal? You want to get into a little school yard name calling match?

Seriously?
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
John Stamos jr.



Joined: 07 Oct 2012
Location: Namsan

PostPosted: Sat Feb 23, 2013 8:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ehh, captain goombah, my sincerest apologies.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic   Reply to topic    Korean Job Discussion Forums Forum Index -> General Discussion Forum All times are GMT - 8 Hours
Goto page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9  Next
Page 5 of 9

 
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum


This page is maintained by the one and only Dave Sperling.
Contact Dave's ESL Cafe
Copyright © 2013 Dave Sperling. All Rights Reserved.

Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2002 phpBB Group

TEFL International Supports Dave's ESL Cafe
TEFL Courses, TESOL Course, English Teaching Jobs - TEFL International