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Koreans Out Of Their Usual Element Ignoring You
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Steelrails



Joined: 12 Mar 2009
Location: Earth, Solar System

PostPosted: Sat Feb 23, 2013 11:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

John Stamos jr. wrote:
Steelrails wrote:
I think John Stamos' point can be summed up as "Koreans are stupid. Korean men are bad. Korean-Americans have issues. Why don't Koreans, Korean men, and Korean-Americans like me? And they are wrong for doing so."

Why would you expect these people to like you and treat you well if all you do is insult them? Reminds me of the Republican Party and wondering why black people don't vote for them.


Rolling Eyes

What are you even talking about... My point is that you are biased and often delusional when it comes to matters relating to Korea, despite your claim of being objective. What a loser this guy is.


At least I can debate the facts of the story and not just cast about personal attacks. Why can't you stick to the facts?
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John Stamos jr.



Joined: 07 Oct 2012
Location: Namsan

PostPosted: Sat Feb 23, 2013 11:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

You can "debate the facts" as well as a palm reader can read my feet. You're a joke, the vast majority of people here know it, and that's all there is to say.
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Steelrails



Joined: 12 Mar 2009
Location: Earth, Solar System

PostPosted: Sat Feb 23, 2013 6:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Anyways back to the possible facts. To summarize-

OP, it is possible, may have something strange about them. OP should check to make sure he is hygenial, dresses at least somewhat professionally, isn't doing something like wearing sunglasses while listening to his iPod, doesn't scowl or carry any other anti-social expression, and doesn't talk to breasts.

As for anti-socialization policies at Hagwons, I laid out possible explanations above. One could always ask their boss why such a policy exists instead of just assuming that they already know the motivations behind it. Surprise Surprise, they just may find out it has something to do with fair access amongst employees to English conversation time.

Next, as far as Koreans and saying 'hi' at the market, one should first check whether they live in a big city or small town. In a small town that's rather odd, in a big city it is not so odd. There appears to be a wide variety of opinion and experience on this matter, though it appears that posters who have generally negative attitudes towards Korea tend to experience this far more often. There is some chicken-egg stuff here. Did they perhaps get some rude jerks for coworkers and this put them off to the country and as such, reinforces their coworkers attitudes. Or did they have some sort bitterness early on and their coworkers reacted negatively to them and this reinforced their bitterness.

Lastly, as to whether this is a 'Korean' phenomenon. Taking the US, I have mentioned that there are different standards of friendliness back home. Coldish midwesterners, and suburbanites vs. Southern hospitality. People who don't know the name of their next-door neighbors vs. people who would find such an idea rude and offensive. Certainly there are different standards of friendliness, and this type of behavior would not be out of place in a big city-suburb type environment where everyone is busy. "Yes, we're coworkers, we don't have to make a big deal about things, we'll catch up tomorrow, I'm in the shopping zone and have to deal with my 3 year old"
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John Stamos jr.



Joined: 07 Oct 2012
Location: Namsan

PostPosted: Sat Feb 23, 2013 8:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Steelrails wrote:
back to the possible facts.


Quote:
OP should check to make sure he is hygenial


Quote:
Did they perhaps get some rude jerks for coworkers and this put them off to the country and as such, reinforces their coworkers attitudes. Or did they have some sort bitterness early on and their coworkers reacted negatively to them and this reinforced their bitterness.


Here's a fact: "Hygenial" isn't a word.

And I love that second argument. Did it through circumstance become the foreigner's fault or was it always their fault? Great to see that objectivity (read: delusion) in action.
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Steelrails



Joined: 12 Mar 2009
Location: Earth, Solar System

PostPosted: Sat Feb 23, 2013 9:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Here's a fact: "Hygenial" isn't a word.
]

Fine, hygenic. Do you want a prize?

Quote:
Did it through circumstance become the foreigner's fault or was it always their fault? Great to see that objectivity (read: delusion) in action.


I do believe the part where I called his coworkers "rude jerks" made it clear that it was not his fault. That should be clear from, well, me calling his coworkers "rude jerks".

The first sentence is how it might not be his fault, the second is how it might be.

I think you're deluded that you are projecting way too much on what I'm writing.
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John Stamos jr.



Joined: 07 Oct 2012
Location: Namsan

PostPosted: Sun Feb 24, 2013 4:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Do you want a prize?


Um... eh, sure, why the hell not.

This is the kind of stuff I'm talking about, though. In your address to the OP above, you start off by immediately suggesting that they may have a hygiene problem (or hygenial, whatever you want to call it) or, may walk around "scowling". That in turn assumes that it may not be the Korean persons' fault; or, to put it simply, you shifting blame and not accepting the foreigner's premise.

You then say what I quoted you saying in my previous post. Even though the OP didn't come off as bitter at all, both of your "scenarios" result in him coming off as a bitter person (though he didn't), again shifting blame, not to mention making a completely unrelated negative assumption about the foreigner OP.

You then play that off by saying that you calling the Korean co-workers "rude jerks" absolves you of any, shall we say, nonobjective thinking. However, The Koreans are simply "rude jerks" but the OP is automatically bitter and may have a BO problem, though you merely invented those possibilities out of no where (who's projecting again?).

Oh, the tricks of the human mind. I'm not projecting anything SR. Other than the, I'll say widely understood concept around here, that you are a biased hack. Whether it's out of delusion or intention, and I'd say delusion, I obviously have no way of knowing. But, you should listen to yourself from time to time, instead of machine gunning out posts then redirecting everything into a conundrum that, frankly, makes you look pretty foolish.
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Steelrails



Joined: 12 Mar 2009
Location: Earth, Solar System

PostPosted: Sun Feb 24, 2013 4:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
ay walk around "scowling". That in turn assumes that it may not be the Korean persons' fault; or, to put it simply, you shifting blame and not accepting the foreigner's premise.


So, if the situation were reversed and a Korean person was complaining about their foreign coworker not saying "hi" at the grocery store, should we automatically accept the Korean's assertion that "something is wrong with foreigner culture"? OR should we suggest possible alternative explanations. Maybe the Korean co-teacher has bad breath and is a close talker and the NET just doesn't want to deal with that as he's buying produce.

It's called raising all possibilities. In order to arrive at the truth, you have to raise the possibilities and then decide if they have any basis.

Quote:
You then play that off by saying that you calling the Korean co-workers "rude jerks" absolves you of any, shall we say, nonobjective thinking. However, The Koreans are simply "rude jerks" but the OP is automatically bitter and may have a BO problem


First, the bitter comment was directed in general to people who have a tendency to complain about one things Koreans do, and then when Koreans do the opposite, they'll complain about it in a post 3 months later. That is called arbitrary. That means the person isn't grounded in a set definition of proper behavior, but is rather guided by their varying moods.

There have been threads where people complain about clingy co-teachers and people who won't leave them alone at bars or too many "hellos" and attention on the street. Then you get a thread like this.

Yes, "rude jerks" is worse. It is from a deliberate bad attitude. BO problems are often unknown to the person and unintentional and the OP would likely do everything they could to prevent such a thing.


Quote:
though you merely invented those possibilities out of no where (who's projecting again?).


May I ask why you believe the OP can't possibly be at fault? How is that not a biased assumption?

If this same scenario were presented regarding someone back home, dealing with co-workers from back, in our hometowns, would we automatically agree with the assertion that it must be the co-workers fault and that culture was to blame? No, we'd say that maybe the person who is complaining might be doing something that is causing other people not to speak to them. Of course it could be that their coworkers are jerks and we sympathize with them, but we would be doing them disservice not to at least inquire as to whether or not they are engaged in any anti-social behavior.

Quote:
I'm not projecting anything SR. Other than the, I'll say widely understood concept around here, that you are a biased hack. Whether it's out of delusion or intention, and I'd say delusion, I obviously have no way of knowing. But, you should listen to yourself from time to time, instead of machine gunning out posts then redirecting everything into a conundrum that, frankly, makes you look pretty foolish.


Can you at least make one post responding to the possibilities and scenarios and not about how I'm a hack. If my ideas are so "hacky" why can't you debate them and not conjuring up whatever imaginary issues you think I have?

Lastly, you do realize that the OP has recently been involved with the police, right? Now, there was a thread where I didn't "blame the NET", where I actually stuck up and stayed out because it was a criminal matter and a specific incident where I wasn't present. Some other posters blamed the OP for the whole thing, I did not. I said wait for the facts.

This is a little different. This isn't a crime or specific incident, but a general occurrence. I feel it is appropriate here to at least question if the OP bears any responsibility, rather than their other post, where we should at least give them the benefit of the doubt.
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John Stamos jr.



Joined: 07 Oct 2012
Location: Namsan

PostPosted: Sun Feb 24, 2013 5:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
So, if the situation were reversed...


The situation is the situation, and it is not reversed. Stop changing things around to suit your objectives.

Quote:
It's called raising all possibilities...


No, it's called being a biased, deluded Korean guy, in this case.

Quote:
Yes, "rude jerks" is worse.


It's worse than inventing foundation-less attacks on random foreigners, as you did? Don't think so.

Quote:
BO problems are often unknown to the person and unintentional and the OP would likely do everything they could to prevent such a thing.


Just stop. Do you still not realize that you created this OP BO hypothesis from your imagination?

Quote:
May I ask why you believe the OP can't possibly be at fault? How is that not a biased assumption?


Of course he could be at fault, but you automatically created some sort of inquisitional checklist to check off factors that you alone deem relevant. Red flag, Kim.

Quote:
If my ideas are so "hacky" why can't you debate them and not conjuring up whatever imaginary issues you think I have?


I debated what you said. Very clearly, I explained why your post was biased and nonobjective. But you "hacked" out a super long, dodging response in likely about 3 minutes.

Quote:
Lastly, you do realize that the OP has recently been involved with the police, right?


I remember reading about it, but he seemed to be handling it pretty well, pretty objectively, considering what I recall him having to go though, from what I remember.

Quote:
I feel it is appropriate here to at least question if the OP bears any responsibility...


... Because you automatically assume him to be bitter and possibly have BO, though you have absolutely zero information to suggest such things. Yeah, we get it. I feel sad for you, honestly. I wonder if you read the multiple responses I've read in various threads, including this one, where posters say they simply skip your posts when they see your avatar. I think you're on the verge of a wake up call.
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Enrico Palazzo
Mod Team
Mod Team


Joined: 11 Mar 2008

PostPosted: Sun Feb 24, 2013 8:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

John Stamos jr. wrote:
You can "debate the facts" as well as a palm reader can read my feet. You're a joke, the vast majority of people here know it, and that's all there is to say.


Did you read the TOS? Such posts entail ad-hominem attacks on another poster. Please see that this doesn't continue. We don't want people engaging in personal attacks. I'm sure you understand and can keep it clean.

Thank you....
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Enrico Palazzo
Mod Team
Mod Team


Joined: 11 Mar 2008

PostPosted: Sun Feb 24, 2013 8:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

John Stamos jr. wrote:
Smithington wrote:
Why does anyone bother to read Steelrails posts? Not only are his posts far too long, but we know exactly what he's going to say before we read what he's written. He's a one pony show. Ignore him and hopefully he'll move on.


Ain't that the truth.

Quote:
For you to call him out alone in this, and to toss the race/gyopo bit in as well... that's pretty low.


Haha, really? Where are we? Who is he? I understand that you're a somewhat dim-witted Canadian fellow, but let's not be too naive here. Maybe he has issues, maybe he doesn't, I don't really care either way. At the end of the day, he's a Korean guy living in Korea and posting on a Korean forum at maximum capacity. I say it plays a part... whoa, really?! What a "low" and crazy assumption... He's a self-claimed "apologist" and I don't believe him to be as nearly as objective as he claims himself to be when it comes to Korea. I think he's a delusional fraud. And this is not a far out concept, I think a lot of people agree with me. Someone like fermentation is much more impartial and respectable in opinion.


A dim-witted Canadian fellow? That's kind of a major violation of the TOS. Canadian bashing, Korean, or American bashing etc..., especially in such an overt manner, is verboten. I suppose the poster will have to go on a mini-vacation. Check the bans to know when the vacation will be over. It's not personal. We need people to follow the TOS. We don't want others abusing each other on here or engaging in prejudicial comments.
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lemak



Joined: 02 Jan 2011

PostPosted: Sun Feb 24, 2013 9:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Enrico Palazzo wrote:
Canadian bashing, Korean, or American bashing etc..., especially in such an overt manner, is verboten.


Hear hear! As long as it remains open season on those dastardly kiwis, it's all good! You'll be missed, Uncle Jesse!!!
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hiamnotcool



Joined: 06 Feb 2012

PostPosted: Sun Feb 24, 2013 5:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Steelrails wrote:
Quote:
I wasn't talking about specific gatherings. I'm talking about a hakwon owner specifically saying that his Korean workers are not to hang out with his non-Korean workers outside of work...period. That is segregation. It says a lot about you that you support racial segregation. Separating people on race is not the same as separating people based on their drinking habits or religion. You seem to be a racist so I don't expect you to grasp this though.


ARGH, You aren't listening. WHY did your boss enact this policy?

If he enacted it because he dislikes foreigners, then the policy is racist. If he enacted it because some employees were getting free extra conversation practice and some are not, then it is not racism. Can you get that through your head? What was the reason for his policy?


What was the reason for his policy? He doesn't believe races should mix unless it's going to turn him a profit. Racist people always have random excuse like the ones your are providing to hide their true intentions. You realize the foundation for most racist groups is the idea that if races mix there will be problems right? In this case the hakwon owner just sees problems resulting from the races mixing after work hours....the problem just happens to be "free english lessons". If it isn't free english lessons it is going to be something else.
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Steelrails



Joined: 12 Mar 2009
Location: Earth, Solar System

PostPosted: Sun Feb 24, 2013 5:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I guess I get the last word...

Quote:
The situation is the situation, and it is not reversed. Stop changing things around to suit your objectives.


When deciding what the proper moral conduct is, it is quite useful to 'reverse the situation'. Therefore once you have looked at it from both angles you can begin to decide what the proper course of action should be.

Bottom line- If the situation were reversed and a Korean person said the same things as the OP, about the OP, we would be right to question their assumptions. Therefore, it seems that questioning their assumptions is fine, unless one believes that its wrong to question NETs versions of events, but okay to question Korean versions, which I believe is the definition of changing things around to suit your objectives.

Quote:
No, it's called being a biased, deluded Korean guy, in this case.


Even a broken clock is right twice a day. If something is possible, and I think social awkwardness is certainly a reasonably possible explanation, then it behooves us to investigate that possibility. Logic would dictate so.

Quote:
It's worse than inventing foundation-less attacks on random foreigners, as you did? Don't think so.


I didn't attack the guy. I raised the possibility. It's no more foundation-less than the foundation-less attack that the Koreans are doing it to him because they are racist.

Quote:
Just stop. Do you still not realize that you created this OP BO hypothesis from your imagination?


If you read advice columns, you will find that this possibility is one of the first that tend to get raised when people talk about having trouble meeting people or weird conversations. They always recommend ensuring one has good hygeine. Why? Smell, especially to women, is one of the most powerful cues in people's moods towards each other.

Quote:
Of course he could be at fault, but you automatically created some sort of inquisitional checklist to check off factors that you alone deem relevant.


It's called investigation. You raise likely possibilities. Then you eliminate those possibilities in order to arrive at the truth. This is called logic.

Quote:
I debated what you said. Very clearly, I explained why your post was biased and nonobjective.


No, you personally attacked me. You didn't address what I was writing in a logical fashion. You just said that my points were baseless not on the merits of the points, but because of my personal merits.

Quote:
I remember reading about it, but he seemed to be handling it pretty well, pretty objectively, considering what I recall him having to go though, from what I remember.


I agree he handled it pretty well, but in looking for explanations as to awkward relations with his co-workers, this is a key piece of evidence and should not be overlooked.

Quote:
I think you're on the verge of a wake up call.


Mmm hmm.


=================================

Quote:
What was the reason for his policy? He doesn't believe races should mix unless it's going to turn him a profit. Racist people always have random excuse like the ones your are providing to hide their true intentions. You realize the foundation for most racist groups is the idea that if races mix there will be problems right? In this case the hakwon owner just sees problems resulting from the races mixing after work hours....the problem just happens to be "free english lessons". If it isn't free english lessons it is going to be something else.


Maybe the boss doesn't care. But if he gets 2 of his best employees coming into his office and complaining and threatening to quit, then he has to act.

Yes or no, Native English Conversation is a commodity that people pay for, therefore it is scarce?

Yes or no, English skill can be essential to promotion and advancement in the Korean workplace? Is this not doubly or triply so in the case of the ESL industry?

Yes or no, if one group of Korean employees were invited/welcomed to English conversation time but not another, would this raise issues of workplace fairness and equal access?

This possibility may not be the case, but it is certainly one to consider. There does seem a tendency for younger, single, 'sociable' NETs to hang out with their Korean counterparts and go clubbing and drinking together. An older, married, less attractive Korean teacher may feel excluded from this and might complain.

The point is never conclude that something is racism, when it could be plain old jealousy, rivalry, greed, and envy.

Or maybe the guy working in English really is a bigot. Certainly possible.

Here's a thought- Same scenario, only its male and female employees. And let's say instead of selling English lessons, they are selling advice for women or women's products or workplace gender consulting. Let's say the female employees only invite out certain male employees, say the married ones. During those nights out they talk shop and arrange projects and share industry knowledge. The excluded male employees, possibly some of his best, may feel that this is unfair. One complains to the boss, the boss bans after-hours fraternization amongst staff unless all are invited.

Does this mean the boss hates women? Is he motivated by sexism?


Last edited by Steelrails on Sun Feb 24, 2013 5:35 pm; edited 1 time in total
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hiamnotcool



Joined: 06 Feb 2012

PostPosted: Sun Feb 24, 2013 5:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Captain Corea wrote:
John Stamos jr. wrote:
Because you are Korean. This is the point. You are not an objective observer, you falsify the word 'we' to personify an agenda that, apparently, you yourself aren't even aware of. You are a gyopo with issues. There are plenty of them out there, you are simply one who can't grasp the root of how or why you've come upon the views you take, then you ramble on for ages trying to grapple with them for, what I see, as a form of self-justification. And that's fine. But, you have to mature at some point and stop viewing things from a high school state of mind, or an unbalanced 'find my roots as a Korean' point of view. You're off, but you don't realize it. It might be a difficult path and it might be hard to center yourself "objectively" but I wish you good luck in the pursuit.


Actually, I feel that it is YOU who are "off" here. I don't agree with SR on many points, or particularly like his posting style, but to throw up the "gyopo with issues" bit is really weak. I doubt you know SR personally, yet you're speaking about him as if you do.

The truth is, we ALL bring baggage to this forum, whether we like it or not. For you to call him out alone in this, and to toss the race/gyopo bit in as well... that's pretty low.


I really hate to get into someone's ethnic background here because I would like to consider their argument based on it's merits but I guess ethnicity is relevant to topics like these. I wouldn't try to tell a black person that they are "butthurt" if they start talking to me about some form of discrimination they are facing here. I have been here long enough to see that I often get treated better than black people in South Korea because I'm white, and I'm always surprised at how different their experience may be here. That goes for a lot of other Asians too. I'm definitely not complaining about my experience here as a white person, but I don't think an ethnic Korean can have as much insight about my life here as SR claims to have. I don't think he should be lecturing me about my experience anymore than I should be lecturing a Chinese person about their experience here. Now, if he has some advice or maybe can give another view on why these things are happening that is ok. But so far I just hear the same stuff coming from his mouth that I hear from racists ALL OVER THE WORLD....

they smell bad
they look scary
our cultures are too different

Oh yeah, and he also supports segregation...lol.
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Fox



Joined: 04 Mar 2009

PostPosted: Sun Feb 24, 2013 5:28 pm    Post subject: Re: Koreans Out Of Their Usual Element Ignoring You Reply with quote

metalhead wrote:
I'm curious why some Koreans that you know, that you see on a daily basis, be it in the classroom, the 'bakery', the store -whatevs - totally ignore you when they see you passing by them on the street. Then, for example, the next day, treat you as usual (like, saying hello to you) when they see you back in their little shop.


I have the exact opposite problem: I generally like to be left-alone in public, while the Koreans I know tend to say hi and want to chat a bit if they run into me. Moreover, it's not entirely uncommon for a Korean I don't even remember having met (probably a kids parent, but who knows?) to recognize me and greet me. What's even more of a problem is that I tend to be pretty lost in my own head when I walk, so I have no idea how many times a Korean has recognized me, said hi or something, and it didn't even register. They're probably thinking the exact same thing about me that you're thinking about them!
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