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Who had the front row seats? Speak up!
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Leon



Joined: 31 May 2010

PostPosted: Wed Feb 20, 2013 7:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Fox wrote:
The constant linking of my position with Saudi Arabia is especially poor form on Leon's part. I have defended one particular element of Saudi Arabian society in this thread, and given statistics (which were requested) to support that defense. Openly stating that western societies do better in other elements of the Good Life ought to have made it clear that the total Saudi system is not the object of my affections, but that has not stopped our Leon from insinuating just that. If this were a televised debate, it would be a good tactic to get the audience on his side, but what place can such chicanery have in a casual forum discussion?

Quote:
are undeniably good, because I mean how can you argue against healthcare and increased lifespans.


This is how Leon has chosen to frame our broader disagreement: a dispute over healthcare. In reality, here are the things which I have attacked and he has defended in our conversations:

-Mass divorce
-Mass consumption as an end in itself
-Old people living on lonely isolation until they die to avoid irritating their in-laws
-Women being economically and culturally coerced into leaving their children in daycares and working in an office

These are the "undeniable goods" which Leon is actually defending from me, not healthcare. He keeps coming back to healthcare because it is safe ground, but I support universal healthcare (so long as it is not used to funnel public money to drug companies for useless products), so why bring it up? Because knocking down straw men is self-validating? Pretending we need to accept mass divorce to get decent healthcare is fallacious.


You understood even less than I thought. Please point out where I defended mass consumption as an end, old people living in lonely isolation, or mass divorce. I simply said that the things you defended, such as large families, high birthrates, and arranged marriages were largely incompatible with the modern means of production and economy, and that as societies move away from that they are better able to feed, and take care of themselves. Are we arrived at some kind of ideal, no, but is the answer to move backwards to some sort of idealized past that never really existed, not really. You also seem to present all of this as some sort of either:or proposition. Many elderly people are happy not living with their children, and would be unhappy to live in a large family, and there are many people who choose to live in a large family in western societies. There are many women who choose to stay at home in the west, yet you seem to think that women should be required to, or pressured to stay at home by cultural norms. Is it good that many people have to work to survive, no, but like I said I valued economic equality so that's an aspect where America is highly lacking. Is a high rate of divorce a great thing, no if anything people should be encouraged to wait for marriage and get married at later ages, but is it really better where women can not get a divorce even though they are mistreated, truly unhappy, or the man is cheating on them.

All though, one interesting questions is, you know what you think is good, how would you implement it? How would you shape society so that there is less choices, and how would you get people to actually accept that?
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Fox



Joined: 04 Mar 2009

PostPosted: Wed Feb 20, 2013 8:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Leon wrote:
Please point out where I defended mass consumption as an end, old people living in lonely isolation, or mass divorce.


These are the things I have been attacking, so that is what you are defending when you squabble against me (at least until you start straw-manning me with health care or pollution).

Leon wrote:
I simply said that the things you defended, such as large families, high birthrates, and arranged marriages were largely incompatible with the modern means of production and economy...


... which is one of mass production and mass consumption. You are defending a trade: family for consumption. You say you do not defend this, then you yet again defend it.

Leon wrote:
All though, one interesting questions is, you know what you think is good, how would you implement it? How would you shape society so that there is less choices, and how would you get people to actually accept that?


I wouldn't.
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Leon



Joined: 31 May 2010

PostPosted: Wed Feb 20, 2013 8:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Fox wrote:
Leon wrote:
Please point out where I defended mass consumption as an end, old people living in lonely isolation, or mass divorce.


These are the things I have been attacking, so that is what you are defending when you squabble against me (at least until you start straw-manning me with health care or pollution).

Leon wrote:
I simply said that the things you defended, such as large families, high birthrates, and arranged marriages were largely incompatible with the modern means of production and economy...


... which is one of mass production and mass consumption. You are defending a trade: family for consumption. You say you do not defend this, then you yet again defend it.

Leon wrote:
All though, one interesting questions is, you know what you think is good, how would you implement it? How would you shape society so that there is less choices, and how would you get people to actually accept that?


I wouldn't.


So you come up with a prescription for what's wrong with society, but then say you wouldn't implement anything to change it, so what's the point? Just to attack it? I think over consumption is bad for society that family and societal cohesion are important, etc. etc., yet it's important to think about solutions rather than to just say these things are bad, or just make some call for a return to traditional life without looking at why lifestyles have changed, or all the consequences of that traditional lifestyle.
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Fox



Joined: 04 Mar 2009

PostPosted: Wed Feb 20, 2013 9:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Leon wrote:

So you come up with a prescription for what's wrong with society, but then say you wouldn't implement anything to change it, so what's the point? Just to attack it?


Yes. Grappling with the external to refine the internal. Is that just a Fox thing? Surely not. Besides, when I spoke of personal freedom as a responsibility instead of a right, I was not condemning the concept, I was supporting it. My only prescription is to live your values and reap their natural consequences.

Frankly, for all your talk of "returning to traditional lifestyles," I do not think my suggestions are especially radical.
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Leon



Joined: 31 May 2010

PostPosted: Wed Feb 20, 2013 10:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Fox wrote:
Leon wrote:

So you come up with a prescription for what's wrong with society, but then say you wouldn't implement anything to change it, so what's the point? Just to attack it?


Yes. Grappling with the external to refine the internal. Is that just a Fox thing? Surely not. Besides, when I spoke of personal freedom as a responsibility instead of a right, I was not condemning the concept, I was supporting it. My only prescription is to live your values and reap their natural consequences.

Frankly, for all your talk of "returning to traditional lifestyles," I do not think my suggestions are especially radical.


I think we agree to an extent on the problems, and just disagree on the solutions. I think people should be free to live a traditional lifestyle, it seemed as if you were calling to build a society based off of it. Also all your talk of a visionary concept, etc presents your ideas as being more radical then you would think.
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Died By Bear



Joined: 13 Jul 2010
Location: On the big lake they call Gitche Gumee

PostPosted: Sat Feb 23, 2013 6:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I met a couple of English teachers in Korea that were moonies. They seemed pretty normal, never got to know them beyond chatting up a bit before classes - one of them hooked me up with some private lessons.

I bet some of them aren't really that into it, but use it to their advantage to network and get ahead.
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GF



Joined: 26 Sep 2012

PostPosted: Sat Feb 23, 2013 8:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Fox wrote:
Leon wrote:
All though, one interesting questions is, you know what you think is good, how would you implement it? How would you shape society so that there is less choices, and how would you get people to actually accept that?


I wouldn't.


This is taking the narrow view of it. You propogate ideas and values - with considerable skill and force, I would add. These shape consciousness, and thus have the potential to shape society at a more profound level than mere "implementation".
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Fox



Joined: 04 Mar 2009

PostPosted: Sat Feb 23, 2013 10:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

GF wrote:
Fox wrote:
Leon wrote:
All though, one interesting questions is, you know what you think is good, how would you implement it? How would you shape society so that there is less choices, and how would you get people to actually accept that?


I wouldn't.


This is taking the narrow view of it. You propogate ideas and values - with considerable skill and force, I would add. These shape consciousness, and thus have the potential to shape society at a more profound level than mere "implementation".


I suspect my style of speech does nothing but alienate. I am not a persuasive man.
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Steelrails



Joined: 12 Mar 2009
Location: Earth, Solar System

PostPosted: Sun Feb 24, 2013 4:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I find Fox's style of posting perfectly fine for anyone who doesn't take arguments personally, has an attention span beyond 30 seconds, and a true college education and academic mindset, not someone who passed thanks to the massive decline in higher education standards.

Leon too has been game in this, no one is saying anything stupid. The discussion here puts the arguments in the General Discussion forum to shame where people seem to see posting anything longer than 2 sentences as a bad thing.
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young_clinton



Joined: 09 Sep 2009

PostPosted: Sun Feb 24, 2013 7:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I wouldn't mind being a Moonie and marrying some of those Korean babes. Some of the ones I saw were beautiful. Rev. Moon may have been on to something.
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