Korean Job Discussion Forums

[Kuros]

[GF]

[Kuros]

[akcrono]

[akcrono]

[Mr. BlackCat]

One thing people always neglect to understand is that whether or not abortion is legal, it will still be performed. It's not like there were no abortions in the US before Roe vs Wade. The step of making it legal is to ensure that it is as safe as possible. Obviously, like any other medical procedure, there are risks and the threat of complications and malpractice still exist.

"Prior to Roe v. Wade, as many as 5,000 American women died annually as a direct result of unsafe abortions.(4) Today, abortion is one of the most commonly performed clinical procedures in the United States, and the current death rate from abortion at all stages of gestations is 0.6 per 100,000 procedures."

http://www.ourbodiesourselves.org/book/companion.asp?compID=100&id=20

Now, you can still disagree with abortion on a moral level. I think it's one of those issues that if you're so sure, SO SURE, on either side than you either haven't thought enough about it or you have another agenda. That's not to say you can't have an opinion, even a strongly held one, but to be SO SURE as to start accusing anyone who disagrees of being evil or deserving of harm then there's probably something else at play.

The point is, making it illegal does not take away the problem. It simply minimizes the risks. Humans have been terminating pregnancies since they got it on in caves after out running an angry woolly mammoth. The hope is to minimize it. We can do this best through sex education, access to contraceptives, ensuring medical care to all citizens and raising the opportunities and income of the lower classes. It is hard to ignore the fact that all of these things are usually just as strongly resisted by those who oppose abortion. And don't try to bring religion into it, that just inflates the hypocrisy (murder is wrong! But helping the poor and the meek inheriting the Earth? meh....)

Now to the two items the OP posted.

1) That doctor is a deranged criminal and he is being prosecuted. He didn't perform this infanticide at the request of the mothers. He would drug them, induce labour and go about his criminal activities. In other cases, he lied to them or provided very misleading information. Yes, the mothers may still be responsible, but many of them were scared teens, or in other terrible situations that you can never even start to comprehend.

There are, unfortunately, sickos in every field. I read recently about a doctor who would lie to his patients in order to amputate limbs for no reason. A dentist who would routinely drug his patients and pull out all their teeth for fun. The case that was sited here, while consisting of unimaginable horror, is isolated and does not represent abortionists any more than the other two cases I mentioned represent surgeons or dentists.

What I do find interesting in the OP, and even others here and in the media, is the fact that no mention is made that this madman also tortured the mothers and did everything possible to maximize their pain and suffering (physically) not to mention that he played a sick trick on many of them by lying to them about the situation. What that tells me is the OP, and others, are more interested in the life of the fetus (and in this case, the babies) than the mothers. In this case, and this case alone, I also mourn the babies of course, and consider them fully human. But it does speak volumes to these people's view of women, and their place in society in my opinion.

http://www.snopes.com/politics/crime/gosnell.asp


2) I hadn't heard of this second story, and when I google her name the only links I get are from right wing media and blogs. I don't really doubt that this lady said this stupid thing, I just doubt that it's really all that important. It just seems like a stupid person who is really low on the ladder saying something stupid. Maybe it was taken out of context, or maybe it wasn't. It's like MSNBC screaming about some Congressional aide who said something dumb. These people have no power, and every person in the history of the world has said something dumb. If they really don't have any power to push their idiotic thoughts then let's move on. If they do have some power or influence, like say a Senator who says a woman can't get pregnant from being raped while sitting on a Committee on Science, then sure let's tar and feather them. But just like I didn't believe that jerk's comments represented everyone who happens to have an R next to their title, I don't believe some lady talking out of her ass represents everyone who does work at Planned Parenthood.

While we're on the subject, people need to stop trying so hard to make PP such a boogieman and educate themselves on the work the organization actually does. Actually, go ahead and educate yourselves on everything you hate. You'll likely find that you didn't really know that much about what you were so enraged about to start with.

And another point that is often raised: If men could get pregnant, there'd be a clinic on every corner and it would be less than $100. If you doubt that, remember Viagra was the fastest drug to be okayed by the FDA which is shocking considering all the HIV/AIDS and cancer treatments that are still in limbo.

[akcrono]

Well said blackcat.

[TheUrbanMyth]

[Kuros]

[augustine]

I personally can't stand "pro-life" people. Anti-abortionists better be the ones raising those unwanted babies. You said I have to have it... so you f*cking raise it.

[Steelrails]

Some points.....

1)I'm find myself confused at how women can say things like "hands off my body" and "its my choice, none of your business" and then 10 seconds after the thing has popped, turn around and demand child support. If it's none of men's business, fine. But then eliminate child support. If we continue to have child support, then yeah, it is men's business.

2)As someone who is adopted, and having talked to other adopted/orphan/"disadvantaged birth" people, I must say that many of us get a little...perturbed when hearing stuff like "Hands off my body" and "It's my choice". Uhm, I do believe that it is our body in question and I think we should have the choice whether or not our lives have value.

3)Roe v. Wade is in many senses a "Pro-Life" decision. Odd, one might say. Well, the thing Roe v. Wade did was it made the individual woman the arbiter, not the state. Roe v. Wade, while legalizing abortion, also sets up strong Constitutional barriers against things like forced abortion, such as what occurs in China.

4)The American tradition of individual conscience and liberty strongly supports the right of someone to refuse to carry out practices which they find extremely morally objectionable. We make allowances for those who do not want to serve in the military. Heck, we make allowances for people who don't want to eat pork. I think that tradition supports the right of a doctor to not be compelled to engage in the procedure.

[akcrono]

[akcrono]

[Kuros]

[augustine]