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animal abuse
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cj1976



Joined: 26 Oct 2005

PostPosted: Wed May 08, 2013 9:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Show me some links of actual jail-time given to animal abusers in Korea - like the ones I provided from the UK - then we can at least agree to disagree. Also, how is that anecdotal? The law is more than just something I heard. It is clearly written in legally binding statutes - unlike your conjecture about how animal cruelty can be defined.
Just for good measure:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/ethics/animals/overview/latest.shtml
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cj1976



Joined: 26 Oct 2005

PostPosted: Wed May 08, 2013 10:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Out of fairness, I found some info regarding laws here:

http://www.examiner.com/article/animal-right-groups-forcing-change-korean-laws

“According to the revised animal protection law which took effect in February, those abusing animals are subject to up to 10 million won in fines or up to one year in prison. But no one has been jailed yet,” Jo said.

Also, for people who are really interested in this topic:

http://animalrightskorea.org/animal-welfare/korean-animal-protection-law-2008-version.html
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le-paul



Joined: 07 Apr 2009
Location: dans la chambre

PostPosted: Wed May 08, 2013 10:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

cj1976 wrote:
Out of fairness, I found some info regarding laws here:

http://www.examiner.com/article/animal-right-groups-forcing-change-korean-laws

“According to the revised animal protection law which took effect in February, those abusing animals are subject to up to 10 million won in fines or up to one year in prison. But no one has been jailed yet,” Jo said.

Also, for people who are really interested in this topic:

http://animalrightskorea.org/animal-welfare/korean-animal-protection-law-2008-version.html


so, its back to the same old same old - laws being enforced.

Thanks for the link, ill have a read of that this afternoon.
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cj1976



Joined: 26 Oct 2005

PostPosted: Wed May 08, 2013 10:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

le-paul wrote:
cj1976 wrote:
Out of fairness, I found some info regarding laws here:

http://www.examiner.com/article/animal-right-groups-forcing-change-korean-laws

“According to the revised animal protection law which took effect in February, those abusing animals are subject to up to 10 million won in fines or up to one year in prison. But no one has been jailed yet,” Jo said.

Also, for people who are really interested in this topic:

http://animalrightskorea.org/animal-welfare/korean-animal-protection-law-2008-version.html



so, its back to the same old same old - laws being enforced.

.


Indeed. It is about as 'illegal' as the red-light districts, or the drivers who run red lights, or the mopeds on the pavements, etc.
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CentralCali



Joined: 17 May 2007

PostPosted: Thu May 09, 2013 5:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Steelrails wrote:
Basically then, "Back Home" is a bunch of flaming hypocrites. They get up in arms over "abuse" but slaughter animals at a greater rate.


Do you ever know what you're talking about or are you just typing words to see the pretty patterns?

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The UK has actual legislation and legal repercussions, which Korea does not. That is factual evidence to support my claim.


No. You have anecdotal evidence.


Actually, there's court proceedings and news reports of the same. That's not anecdotal.

Quote:
Korea has animal cruelty prevention laws that have recently been strengthened.


And not enforced. Also, the laws relating to food aren't being enforced either. If they were, there wouldn't be those dog meat restaurants all over the place.

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Sorry, but saying that beating a dog to death is abuse, but killing a cow with a .45 to the head isn't seems weak to me. You are killing an animal.


More pretty patterned words to you, huh? Look, beating the daylights out of a dog to ensure it suffers during the slaughtering is not the same thing as killing a cow in a humane manner. Yes, the cow is being killed for food and/or leather, but it's not being forced to suffer in the extreme.

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Whether you murder someone or torture and murder someone, its still murder.


Well, someone in that case is a human being and, whether you like it or not, plenty of humans are carnivores. Very few humans, though, consume other humans.

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By your logic it should be okay for someone to commit cannibalism.

Either its wrong to kill animals period or not.


Okay, now you're just trolling. It's wrong to cause undue suffering to an animal.

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And if you are killing them, you are certainly being cruel and abusive.


That'd be true if the world were the black and white one you pretend it is. It's not, though.

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At least they're consistent. Sorry, I can't take anyone who claims that animal abuse is wrong but is responsible for the death of dozens of animals a year through their eating habits. When that chicken is getting its neck broken, that's cruelty and abuse.


More pretty patterns. There's intentional suffering and then there's humane slaughter of animals. Torching a live dog's fur and then beating the dog with a club so it suffers is nothing at all like the humane slaugher mandated by law in most developed countries.

But, then, you really don't care about any of this. After all, you're just tossing out "pretty patterns" to troll. What's it tell you when a vegetarian (me) is completely against the malarkey you've posted here?
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NYC_Gal 2.0



Joined: 10 Dec 2010

PostPosted: Thu May 09, 2013 9:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Would you rather be shot in the head or have your skin stripped off, inch by inch, slowly? There's a humane death and there's torture. Even the Jewish and Muslim religions have rules about how animals are to be killed, ensuring as little suffering as possible.
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Fox



Joined: 04 Mar 2009

PostPosted: Thu May 09, 2013 9:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

NYC_Gal 2.0 wrote:
Would you rather be shot in the head or have your skin stripped off, inch by inch, slowly?


Would you rather be beaten with a stick for a few minutes, or shot in the head and eaten? Because in western countries, while the former is animal abuse, the latter is perfectly legal to do to an animal. Let's get real, western animal abuse laws have nothing to do with animal welfare, and everything to do with crafting a particular, unreal self-image. Feel bad about raising and slaughtering countless animals under factory farm conditions? Hey, at least we don't hit dogs, right?

There are some people out there who genuinely care about the well being of animals, but those people have no real influence on national policy.
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Steelrails



Joined: 12 Mar 2009
Location: Earth, Solar System

PostPosted: Thu May 09, 2013 9:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Actually, there's court proceedings and news reports of the same. That's not anecdotal.


You made an absolute claim and brought anecdotal evidence to support it.

If you made a non-absolute claim, your anecdotes might have substance. If I made an absolute claim like "They are always prosecuted", your anecdotes would have merit.

But you made the absolute claim. You need something beyond anecdotes to prove it.

Quote:
More pretty patterned words to you, huh? Look, beating the daylights out of a dog to ensure it suffers during the slaughtering is not the same thing as killing a cow in a humane manner. Yes, the cow is being killed for food and/or leather, but it's not being forced to suffer in the extreme.


Go ahead and tell yourself you're being nicer to the cow by killing it with a bullet to the head and not beating it.

If you were starving in the jungle you'd beat an animal to death to eat it.

And in the Koreans' defense, they at least have the guts to kill their food in person, clean it, gut it, and chop it. Something I think a significant number of the self-righteous types here would have a problem with, even though they enjoy meat.

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It's wrong to cause undue suffering to an animal.


Killing it isn't undue suffering?

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That'd be true if the world were the black and white one you pretend it is


Actually, you are the one claiming it is black and white. I am the one pointing out how both Koreans and "Back home" are in a world of grey. Both kill animals for meat. One group does it more than another.

Killing is abusive and cruel. I see nothing humane about the farm factory conditions with a .45 to the head. That seems cruel and abusive.

I think anyone who eats meat from such a source, heck anyone who kills animals for food period has no business lecturing. Sorry, killing is cruel.

At least you're a vegetarian.

As someone who eats meat and goes to fast food restaurants on occasion, I certainly aren't going to think I'm somehow nice to animals. If I have to choose between the disgusting reality that those animals are treated cruely and killing is cruel, then I'll take the honesty of saying by extension I am cruel to animals rather than the sanctimonious hypocritical lie that somehow I'm not cruel simply because I don't beat them to death.

Quote:
After all, you're just tossing out "pretty patterns" to troll.


No, this is about the fact that killing is cruel. And anyone who is trying to claim a moral high ground simply because they kill in a humane manner is full of crap. Either be a vegetarian (or scavenger) or pipe down.

Quote:
Would you rather be shot in the head or have your skin stripped off, inch by inch, slowly?


Flayed, because I might have a chance to break free and kill the person doing it to me. Unless there is zero chance of escape or rescue, then yeah, get it down and over with.

Then again, I'd rather be shot like a man than strapped down to an operating table and pumped full of poison through an IV. Most people say lethal injection is more humane. Crock of crap if you ask me. At least there is a certain dignity in the firing squad.

Either way if someone was trying to shoot me or flay me, I'd be trying to murder them first. Shows how little moral distance there is between the two. I'm not going to be any nicer to a person who is trying to kill me. "Oh he just killed them with a 9mm execution style? Not such a bad guy."

Or to use the Britain vs. Korea comparison, who is worse? A guy who goes on a gun rampage and kills 30 vs. a serial killer who hacks 20 to death? Answer: They're both pieces of crap who have no leg up on the other.
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tiger fancini



Joined: 21 Mar 2006
Location: Testicles for Eyes

PostPosted: Thu May 09, 2013 9:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

NYC_Gal 2.0 wrote:
Would you rather be shot in the head or have your skin stripped off, inch by inch, slowly?


If animals had the reasoning powers to answer such a question, then of course they would choose the first. However, they wouldn't exactly be happy about it and they would probably despise you for ending their life prematurely and eating them. From the animal's viewpoint, the end result is terrible regardless. They are taken against their will, in some cases separated from their families, killed, butchered, eaten and then shat out. Offering compensation in the form of 'humane slaughter' certainly wouldn't do much for me if I were one of those animals. I'd actually be really annoyed if humans said that, as long as I was killed in a 'nice' way, it's ok to eat me and others of my species.
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CentralCali



Joined: 17 May 2007

PostPosted: Thu May 09, 2013 10:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yep, I was right. Rails is just typing to see the words, to troll. He thinks I've made some claim I've never made and he thinks that if I were starving in the jungle, I'd be as cruel as possible to an animal to survive. That shows he knows nothing about jungles, animals, and of course other humans.
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cj1976



Joined: 26 Oct 2005

PostPosted: Thu May 09, 2013 10:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

"Korea is way closer to England than it is Afghanistan or the Congo". That seems quite absolute to me. Care to show me how you worked that out without using conjecture and subjective ideas?
At least I provided some stats from reputable sources to support my claim - which was England is quite far ahead of Korea in terms of animal welfare.
SR, I think you mean well and are quite well-read, but you talk too much. Being verbose doesn't make you right.
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Steelrails



Joined: 12 Mar 2009
Location: Earth, Solar System

PostPosted: Thu May 09, 2013 10:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

CentralCali wrote:
Yep, I was right. Rails is just typing to see the words, to troll. He thinks I've made some claim I've never made and he thinks that if I were starving in the jungle, I'd be as cruel as possible to an animal to survive. That shows he knows nothing about jungles, animals, and of course other humans.


If all you had was a club and the only food source was some tapir. You'd be beating that thing to death.

But no ones in that situation so I should drop that angle.

Quote:
At least I provided some stats from reputable sources to support my claim - which was England is quite far ahead of Korea in terms of animal welfare.


And I showed stats as well- England eats more meat than Korea.

Killing is a cruel act. Killing for physical pleasure and not necessity is more cruel. Brits kill more animals than Koreans. Their cruelty is on a greater scale though perhaps different in intensity.
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cj1976



Joined: 26 Oct 2005

PostPosted: Thu May 09, 2013 10:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Once again, that is just your opinion and is no better than what you consider anecdotal evidence. I simply refuse to accept that Korea has a higher regard for animal welfare than the UK, because it is clearly not true.
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Steelrails



Joined: 12 Mar 2009
Location: Earth, Solar System

PostPosted: Thu May 09, 2013 11:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

cj1976 wrote:
Once again, that is just your opinion and is no better than what you consider anecdotal evidence. I simply refuse to accept that Korea has a higher regard for animal welfare than the UK, because it is clearly not true.


It may not have a higher regard, but that's not the issue. The issue is whether or not the UK is "Worlds Apart". The high levels of meat consumption, which is cruel to animals, mean that there is not a great gulf between the two.
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CentralCali



Joined: 17 May 2007

PostPosted: Fri May 10, 2013 12:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

You seriously don't see the difference between a quick death, minizing the suffering the animal is subjected to, and torching a dog and beating it senseless while it's alive in an attempt to maximize the suffering?
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