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2013 seminar for foreign language institute instructors
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ttompatz



Joined: 05 Sep 2005
Location: Kwangju, South Korea

PostPosted: Wed Jun 19, 2013 11:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

TDC troll wrote:
I think that if your school is a member of that association , your director
will definitely want you to go .

Do what you want it's your job .


No, it is NOT.

Not your job to attend.
Not a legal requirement.
Not your responsibility to pay for it if it is employment related.

Not your job to do it on YOUR free time. Your time is YOURS.

If they want you to attend they can pay the costs of your attendance and they can pay you for your time during your attendance (then it is your job).

.
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TDC troll



Joined: 03 Feb 2009
Location: TDC

PostPosted: Thu Jun 20, 2013 12:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I would assume all owners would be pay for the fee.
As far as the time, every teacher should ask for
reimbursement for travel expenses.
They should also ask for pay equal to the time
they spent at the seminar.

I guess everyone has their own opinions about
different matters.
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CentralCali



Joined: 17 May 2007

PostPosted: Thu Jun 20, 2013 12:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

TDC troll wrote:
I would assume all owners would be pay for the fee.


There's an old saying about the word assume.

Quote:
As far as the time, every teacher should ask for
reimbursement for travel expenses.
They should also ask for pay equal to the time
they spent at the seminar.


That's a laugh riot. Ask for that after the fact and you're likely to get nothing. If you do decide to go, get the particulars of travel expenses, meal costs, and pay sorted out before embarking on this lark, er trip.

Quote:
I guess everyone has their own opinions about
different matters.


Yeah. Some people have opinions that are well-founded and others have opinions that aren't. Just because everyone has a right to an opinion does not mean that everyone's opinion is worth equal respect.
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TDC troll



Joined: 03 Feb 2009
Location: TDC

PostPosted: Thu Jun 20, 2013 1:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Man you guys must have some really bad jobs.
I have NEVER been paid late or under paid.
I have calculated all my travel costs, etc after the
fact several times. Have always been paid the same day.

To tell the truth, sometimes I feel like I am overpaid.
This week I will teach ten classes. Forty classes for the month.

I have been in bad hagwons b4 , don't get me wrong.
I have been in literal fist fights with owners.

Its just that I have been in this job for 5 years I guess I forgot about the bad times.
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wooden nickels



Joined: 23 May 2010

PostPosted: Thu Jun 20, 2013 1:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

FriendlyDaegu wrote:
wooden nickels wrote:
The Hogwon Association is nothing more than a PEE WEE's treehouse club. It basically serves no purpose other than face value. It collects some fees from those who unknowingly believe they are under some obligation to participate.


I'd guess the main purpose is legislative lobbying against fee limits and things like that. There's a proposal now to ban all private kindies, i.e. setting a minimum hagwon student age. So those owners are probably turning to the Hagwon Association to get it stopped.


Yes, this is the idea for the most part, to band together and have some political clout. However, the Association pretty much sits on its hands and accomplishes little for its members. It's nothing like the public school teachers' unions that will actually demonstrate and march to get something done. The public school teachers usually have the same agenda and can push something through. Hogwon owners have many different agendas. Therefore, if something has a negative impact on DING BAT DO hogwon, the neighboring Cambridge GATES Super Genius Kindy Academy figures it can pick up some of the spill-over of students. Thus, another nature of the hogwon industry. Dog eat Dog!
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ontheway



Joined: 24 Aug 2005
Location: Somewhere under the rainbow...

PostPosted: Thu Jun 20, 2013 9:25 am    Post subject: Re: 2013 seminar for foreign language institute instructors Reply with quote

nbbboby wrote:
Has anyone been told about this? It is being held at Anyang City Hall on June 29th.

Paper says "All foreign language instructors who have arrived in Gyeonggi. Korea based April 30, 2013. The following seminar is mandatory for the foreign language instructors in accordance the article 13 subsection 3 of the law governing academy foundation, management and extracurricular work." Participation fee: 10,000won

Is it normal to be charged for a government mandatory seminar?

Is this retroactive for teachers that have arrived before this time? I got here in 2008 and have not left country so considering the distance I would have to travel I would rather not go.

phone +82-31-8045-2114 number yet there was not an English speaking person that could answer questions. This makes me wonder .....


Porksta wrote:
What is article 13 subsection 3 of the law governing academy foundation?


FriendlyDaegu wrote:

ACT ON THE ESTABLISHMENT AND OPERATION OF PRIVATE TEACHING INSTITUTES AND EXTRACURRICULAR LESSONS

Article 13 (Instructors, etc.)

(3) The Superintendent of the Office of Education may, if necessary, establish and implement programs for training founders, operators and instructors of private teaching institutes to improve their quality as persons in charge of social education in accordance with the conditions as prescribed by Presidential Decree.



As should be clear from the above: These meetings are established by local and provincial Education Offices throughout most of Korea for all hogwan teachers according to the Presidential Decree. Since the local Education Office "may" establish the meetings, some do not. They have not been held everywhere in Korea. These are akin to the required education meetings held by the government schools for teacher training.

It is not just E2 English teachers who must attend these meetings. Educational meetings are also held for E2 Chinese and Japanese teachers. Likewise, Korean hogwan owners, managers and teachers must attend these meetings. E2 visa language teachers attend meetings held in their own language, or in some cases, combined meetings are held UN style, with each speaker being sequentially translated from Korean into English, Japanese and Chinese.

In the areas holding these annual meetings, every registered hogwan teacher, manager and owner must attend - including E2 teachers. It does NOT depend on the hogwan being a member of any hogwan association. The list of attendees is provided by the local Education Office. All legally registered E2 teachers are required to attend.

Yes, the hogwan associations cooperate with the Education Offices in setting up these meetings, including the Korean meetings for Korean teachers, managers and owners. F visa teachers who are legally registered as working either full time or part time at a hogwan are also required to attend - sometimes they attend with the E2 teachers, sometimes they attend with the Korean teachers (silly if they don't understand the language well, but fact).

Many E2 teachers in Korea will reply that they have never been informed about or required to attend such a meeting. In part, this is because the Education Office in Seoul has held very few if any of these events. It is also because public school teachers have their own meetings, and because numerous E2 teachers who think they are legally registered in Korea to teach are not legally registered at their local Education office.

Local education offices require a copy of an E2 teacher's ARC within two weeks of arrival, along with a copy of your background check, diploma and at times, transcripts and passport ID page. Many E2 teachers go far beyond that date before obtaining an ARC. When unable to fake the starting date and faced with a fine for being late, many schools just "forget" to report their E2 teacher to the Education Office, meaning you won't be on the list of required attendees.

Some of the Education Offices have fines and penalties for not attending. The fine for a teacher who does not attend is levied by the Education Office against the school, the school may collect the fine from the teacher or from the teacher's pay - and the Labor Office will not intervene on the teacher's behalf. There are penalties against the school as well, and if the school has other bad marks it could even end up being closed. Of course they can fire the offending teacher and appeal the penalties.

Yes, there are fines, as many, many years ago at one of my first hogwans, the owner received the fine and showed it to me. Since I had not been informed about the meeting, I refused to pay and the owner paid. The fine at the time was 100,000 won.

Yes these meetings are boring, mostly a waste of time, and unpaid since they are set up and required by the government. Yes, it would be nice if your school paid the admission fee - a good school does pay the fee. However, it is possible to meet other E2 teachers at your area, hogwan owners other than your boss, and even do some networking for your next job if your current job sucks, so maybe it isn't all bad.
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axelf



Joined: 18 Jun 2013

PostPosted: Thu Jun 20, 2013 10:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
As should be clear from the above:

Nice attitude. Please read my posts and then this thread will make more sense to you.

As I showed before, the Gyeonggi Metropolitan Office of education is not a real office of education. It's a name made up by the hagwon association. The real office is the Gyeonggi Provincial Office of Education.

The stuff in your lengthy post might (or might not) be true if this were a legitimate meeting by the Gyeonggi Provincial Office of Education, but it's not.

Quote:
I'd guess the main purpose is legislative lobbying against fee limits and things like that. There's a proposal now to ban all private kindies, i.e. setting a minimum hagwon student age. So those owners are probably turning to the Hagwon Association to get it stopped.

What? How would gathering a bunch of foreign teachers on June 29th help those situations? Your post doesn't make sense in relation to this topic...

I suspect one agenda of the meeting on June 29th is to misrepresent the law in order to make foreign teachers feel less capable of defending themselves against dirty hagwon practices. While the industry may be "dog eats dog," marginalizing foreign teachers is one thing most hagwon owners probably wouldn't have a problem with.

I don't think the association is doing this for money, and it wouldn't be that big of a deal to hold such a meeting if it were legit, respectful of foreign teachers (unlike the one in Daegu), and had sincere intentions. But this particular situation wreaks of agenda.

Quote:
Yes these meetings are boring, mostly a waste of time,

That's not why I'm opposed to this meeting, dude. I see much deeper problems with it. I hope other people will read my posts more carefully than you did.
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ontheway



Joined: 24 Aug 2005
Location: Somewhere under the rainbow...

PostPosted: Thu Jun 20, 2013 11:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

axelf wrote:
Quote:
As should be clear from the above:

Nice attitude. Please read my posts and then this thread will make more sense to you.

As I showed before, the Gyeonggi Metropolitan Office of education is not a real office of education. It's a name made up by the hagwon association. The real office is the Gyeonggi Provincial Office of Education.

The stuff in your lengthy post might (or might not) be true if this were a legitimate meeting by the Gyeonggi Provincial Office of Education, but it's not.

Quote:
I'd guess the main purpose is legislative lobbying against fee limits and things like that. There's a proposal now to ban all private kindies, i.e. setting a minimum hagwon student age. So those owners are probably turning to the Hagwon Association to get it stopped.

What? How would gathering a bunch of foreign teachers on June 29th help those situations? Your post doesn't make sense in relation to this topic...

I suspect one agenda of the meeting on June 29th is to misrepresent the law in order to make foreign teachers feel less capable of defending themselves against dirty hagwon practices. While the industry may be "dog eats dog," marginalizing foreign teachers is one thing most hagwon owners probably wouldn't have a problem with.

I don't think the association is doing this for money, and it wouldn't be that big of a deal to hold such a meeting if it were legit, respectful of foreign teachers (unlike the one in Daegu), and had sincere intentions. But this particular situation wreaks of agenda.

Quote:
Yes these meetings are boring, mostly a waste of time,

That's not why I'm opposed to this meeting, dude. I see much deeper problems with it. I hope other people will read my posts more carefully than you did.


axelf wrote:

"Metropolitan"
- irrelevant translation error. Local government officials do this all the time.
FriendlyDaegu wrote:

"I'd guess the main purpose is legislative lobbying against fee limits and things like that."
- You'd be wrong. Go to the meeting and find out.

axelf wrote:
I suspect one agenda of the meeting on June 29th is to misrepresent the law in order to make foreign teachers feel less capable of defending themselves against dirty hagwon practices.
- Every meeting I've been to had representatives from the Immigration Office and Education Office to present the law and answer questions from the teachers, how to teach presentations and a general bitch session at the end. No BS, just factual. Nothing I didn't know, but new to some of the attendees. But, what you "suspect" is obviously superior to actual knowledge.

axelf wrote:
"I'm opposed to this meeting, dude. I see much deeper problems with it. I hope other people will read my posts more carefully than you did."
- You "suspect" and others "guess" with great paranoia, but you "know" nothing, which is why I read and ignored your post in my original reply.

Last edited by ontheway on Thu Jun 20, 2013 11:28 am; edited 1 time in total
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maximmm



Joined: 01 Feb 2008

PostPosted: Thu Jun 20, 2013 11:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have a question to the poster that seems to know it all with his lengthy post - if this is a mandatory annual seminar that all E2 teachers have to attend, and given that this seminar has been held for many years, why do many, if not most hagwon teachers get this memo only this year for the first time, despite their hagwons having been opened for 5 years or longer?

Furthermore, if this relates to all E2 visa holders and not just hagwon teachers, why have I not heard of this event before?

By the way, public school seminars have always been free for teachers - in fact, we are often paid for attending these (admittedly, not always). In no way is this seminar comparable to the ones that public school teachers have had to attend (at times).
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ontheway



Joined: 24 Aug 2005
Location: Somewhere under the rainbow...

PostPosted: Thu Jun 20, 2013 11:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

maximmm wrote:
I have a question to the poster that seems to know it all with his lengthy post - if this is a mandatory annual seminar that all E2 teachers have to attend, and given that this seminar has been held for many years, why do many, if not most hagwon teachers get this memo only this year for the first time, despite their hagwons having been opened for 5 years or longer?

Furthermore, if this relates to all E2 visa holders and not just hagwon teachers, why have I not heard of this event before?



Read what I wrote above.
These meetings are for all legally registered hogwan teachers in those areas that hold the meetings.
Seoul and many nearby areas do not.

Quote:
Many E2 teachers in Korea will reply that they have never been informed about or required to attend such a meeting. In part, this is because the Education Office in Seoul has held very few if any of these events. It is also because public school teachers have their own meetings, and because numerous E2 teachers who think they are legally registered in Korea to teach are not legally registered at their local Education office.


This is for hogwan teachers. When you take out Government school teachers, University teachers if on an E2, regular private school teachers on an E2, Seoul and other areas where the education office does not hold the seminars, and teachers who are not legally registered with their local Education Office, the majority of E2 teachers in Korea will not be on any list of attendees for these meetings.

The possibility also arises that some local Education Offices are just beginning to implement this rule and will hold these required meetings for the first time this year.
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FriendlyDaegu



Joined: 26 Aug 2012

PostPosted: Thu Jun 20, 2013 3:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

axelf wrote:
FriendlyDaegu wrote:
I'd guess the main purpose is legislative lobbying against fee limits and things like that. There's a proposal now to ban all private kindies, i.e. setting a minimum hagwon student age. So those owners are probably turning to the Hagwon Association to get it stopped.

What? How would gathering a bunch of foreign teachers on June 29th help those situations? Your post doesn't make sense in relation to this topic...


Relax, dude. I was talking about hagwon associations, not the meeting in question. We were discussing what purpose the association serves its members, if any. I have no information or opinion on the teachers meeting. Just some slight interest, given (1) the charges of the organisers lying in order to trick teachers into attending, and (2) the confusion over who the organisers actually are.

Quote:
I hope other people will read my posts more carefully than you did.


ditto.
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M-Tea



Joined: 11 Oct 2008

PostPosted: Fri Jun 21, 2013 2:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Has anyone called the office of education to ask them if they (the office of education) will fine specific academies if their registered teachers don't go?

I am probably going to do that but will save myself the time if someone already has.

In my situation, I know this is all just crap from the idiotic academy association. Any native speaker who looked at that paper could tell from the writing that it was pure bull. The question is, however, what I have asked above. I just need that final assurance so I can negotiate with my boss (who I am on decent terms with) about how we want to go about dealing with these morons.

Also, on an F4, make a difference?
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ttompatz



Joined: 05 Sep 2005
Location: Kwangju, South Korea

PostPosted: Fri Jun 21, 2013 3:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

M-Tea wrote:
Has anyone called the office of education to ask them if they (the office of education) will fine specific academies if their registered teachers don't go?

I am probably going to do that but will save myself the time if someone already has.

In my situation, I know this is all just crap from the idiotic academy association. Any native speaker who looked at that paper could tell from the writing that it was pure bull. The question is, however, what I have asked above. I just need that final assurance so I can negotiate with my boss (who I am on decent terms with) about how we want to go about dealing with these morons.

Also, on an F4, make a difference?


It is NOT required by GPOE (or so says the policy division (2nd floor) of the GPOE in Jowondong, Suwon) or the Seoul Metropolitan Office of Education.
It is NOT required by the national MOE.

There is NO government body who required it.
You CANNOT by law be forced to go.
Immigration will NOT suspend your ARC, visa or note anything in your file.
The MOE doesn't know anything about it.
The Gyeonggi office of education (GPOE) knew nothing about it.

According to the "letter" it is only a requirement for E2 holders who are "new" in Gyeonggi-do.

.
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axelf



Joined: 18 Jun 2013

PostPosted: Fri Jun 21, 2013 9:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

FriendlyDaegu wrote:

axelf wrote:
I hope other people will read my posts more carefully than you did.

ditto.

That comment of mine wasn't written in a response to you, it was written in a response to ontheway. Please retain the context.

I guess I was focused only on the meeting and didn't notice the sub-topics about the purpose of the association. So you're right, your response was on topic.

By the way, I took the time to write back to your PM last night.
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axelf



Joined: 18 Jun 2013

PostPosted: Fri Jun 21, 2013 10:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

ontheway wrote:
axelf wrote:

"Metropolitan"
- irrelevant translation error. Local government officials do this all the time.
I guess this is possible... It seems totally irresponsible to mistype the actual name of your government organization on a document, but maybe it's possible. But ttompatz has apparently done some legwork to show that the GPOE had nothing to do with this meeting. So much for the "irrelevant translation error" theory.

ontheway wrote:
You "suspect" and others "guess" with great paranoia, but you "know" nothing, which is why I read and ignored your post in my original reply.
Well Sherlock, what do you "know" about "this" particular meeting? Should I be an obedient little boy and never question an authority figure, such as a boss or someone who claims to be a government official?

If this meeting is actually being ordered by a genuine government education office, then fine. But if the hagwon association is making this up, then I have no apologies for any of my "paranoia." I don't think we should be a bunch of sheep and let an agenda-laden "big brother" develop any power over us outside of what our employers already have. If the meeting is considered a success by the association, it could be quite the power trip for them and could put into motion some very bad precedents. That's why I've been fuming over this, not because getting up early one Saturday will be "a waste of time" or something.

ttompatz wrote:
It is NOT required by GPOE (or so says the policy division (2nd floor) of the GPOE in Jowondong, Suwon) or the Seoul Metropolitan Office of Education.
It is NOT required by the national MOE.

There is NO government body who required it.
You CANNOT by law be forced to go.
Immigration will NOT suspend your ARC, visa or note anything in your file.
The MOE doesn't know anything about it.
The Gyeonggi office of education (GPOE) knew nothing about it.

According to the "letter" it is only a requirement for E2 holders who are "new" in Gyeonggi-do.

If ttompatz's information is right, then for the protection of all foreign teachers' future treatment and work conditions, please refuse to attend the meeting.
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