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edwardcatflap
Joined: 22 Mar 2009
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 Posted: Thu May 22, 2014 5:32 pm Post subject: |
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Yes, because as any TV exec, advertising agent, or anyone else involved in broadcasting, will tell you that regardless of demographics, TV viewers all have the same preferences for programming, especially in the day of 100 channels on cable. 50 year old married female? Obviously has the same interests as a 22 year old single male. |
Korean TV viewing habits do seem a lot more parochial to me. Of course I don't watch it regularly but when I visit my parents in law for the holidays it's on all the time. Always something in Korean and nearly always some kind of variety or chat show. Inevitably some pop star will appear on one of them before very long. And if they don't appear on a program, they'll be selling something in an advert. And if they're not in an advert they'll be in another news story about K Pop taking over the world. I do think the people who don't like it will be more likely to have heard of the stars than those who don't like pop music in the West. |
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atwood
Joined: 26 Dec 2009
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| Posted: Thu May 22, 2014 5:48 pm Post subject: |
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| Steelrails wrote: |
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| Anyone who watches Korean TV knows who Big Bang is and most people in Korea, especially once they retire, spend a lot of time watching TV. |
Yes, because as any TV exec, advertising agent, or anyone else involved in broadcasting, will tell you that regardless of demographics, TV viewers all have the same preferences for programming, especially in the day of 100 channels on cable. 50 year old married female? Obviously has the same interests as a 22 year old single male.  |
Retired Koreans aren't doing all that much channel surfing. And they are for sure as shit watching the news, which covers celebrities like a baseball stadium tarp.
So are we to now add to your list of accomplishments--fashion maven, soda sommelier, pilot's pal, nautical novice, pizza tosser, Circle K clerk--broadcasting insider?
Herr g, you never cease to amaze. |
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Steelrails
Joined: 12 Mar 2009
Location: Earth, Solar System
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| Posted: Thu May 22, 2014 7:36 pm Post subject: |
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Here's a question- what degree of confidence do you have that if you were to have a conversation with 20 random Koreans over the age of 50, that they would have much success in identifying and conversing about K-Pop idols?
I think the answers would be pretty basic- "I've heard OF them" or "That's the group my granddaughter likes". Pretty much what you'd get from a 50 year old back home- "Oh yeah, Bruno Mars, he's that guy that did the Super Bowl halftime show" or "Oh yeah, I saw Robin Thicke on Ellen". Most Americans can identify Snoop Dogg, but that doesn't make them fans. That just means his name has been in the news and movies ad nausem. And most would probably call him "Snoopy Dogg" just like most 50 year olds here would call Big Bang, Bang Bang after the clothing company.
Do you actually talk to 50 year old Koreans? As a church attendee, I did sometimes. They barely have a clue about today's pop stars much less those from 1994 when everything started. They might be able to toss out a couple names, but that's it. Talking about Kpop is an absolute non-starter.
| Quote: |
| So are we to now add to your list of accomplishments--fashion maven, soda sommelier, pilot's pal, nautical novice, pizza tosser, Circle K clerk--broadcasting insider? |
Are you saying you haven't accomplished anything with your life or had some interesting experiences?
===================================================
Anyways, I think if you can compare Kpop as an industry to anything, it would be Motown, certainly not in terms of quality or international fame, but in method, outlook, and context.
Kpop is manufactured and assembled with a centrally controlled group of relatively anonymous musicians generating the music for the acts ala Motown and the Funk Brothers. As poet John Sinclair said, Berry Gordy took the automotive assembly line and applied it to music. Of course, the Funk Brothers made beautiful songs whereas most of Kpop is bleh. Similarly, KPop is a sort of new-rich phenomenon. Going from utter poverty into increasing levels of prosperity mirrors the Northern industrial African-American experience. Likewise the attitude that the music is in some ways, meant as much for cultural export as expressing something "unique". Motown was meant to be sanitized for white people and scaled back some of the rhythm. Kpop is likewise meant for a more "universal" sound rather than a distinctly Korean one. As the Supremes became fashion icons, so too with Kpop stars. The music is focused on being catchy and familiar. Most songs are about love, although K-pop has done the reverse and gone from social issues to genericism whereas Motown went from genericism to social issues. The pressure for the stars to be diplomats and "acceptable" is there as well.
Of course there are some obvious differences- Motown had a different sound, a greater degree of musicianship, and was a truly massive global phenomenon, but in several aspects there is a comparison and Kpop owes much of its model to that created in Detroit. |
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atwood
Joined: 26 Dec 2009
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| Posted: Thu May 22, 2014 7:47 pm Post subject: |
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| Steelrails wrote: |
Here's a question- what degree of confidence do you have that if you were to have a conversation with 20 random Koreans over the age of 50, that they would have much success in identifying and conversing about K-Pop idols?
I think the answers would be pretty basic- "I've heard OF them" or "That's the group my granddaughter likes". Pretty much what you'd get from a 50 year old back home- "Oh yeah, Bruno Mars, he's that guy that did the Super Bowl halftime show" or "Oh yeah, I saw Robin Thicke on Ellen". Most Americans can identify Snoop Dogg, but that doesn't make them fans. That just means his name has been in the news and movies ad nausem. And most would probably call him "Snoopy Dogg" just like most 50 year olds here would call Big Bang, Bang Bang after the clothing company.
Do you actually talk to 50 year old Koreans? As a church attendee, I did sometimes. They barely have a clue about today's pop stars much less those from 1994 when everything started. They might be able to toss out a couple names, but that's it. Talking about Kpop is an absolute non-starter.
| Quote: |
| So are we to now add to your list of accomplishments--fashion maven, soda sommelier, pilot's pal, nautical novice, pizza tosser, Circle K clerk--broadcasting insider? |
Are you saying you haven't accomplished anything with your life or had some interesting experiences?
===================================================
Anyways, I think if you can compare Kpop as an industry to anything, it would be Motown, certainly not in terms of quality or international fame, but in method, outlook, and context.
Kpop is manufactured and assembled with a centrally controlled group of relatively anonymous musicians generating the music for the acts ala Motown and the Funk Brothers. As poet John Sinclair said, Berry Gordy took the automotive assembly line and applied it to music. Of course, the Funk Brothers made beautiful songs whereas most of Kpop is bleh. Similarly, KPop is a sort of new-rich phenomenon. Going from utter poverty into increasing levels of prosperity mirrors the Northern industrial African-American experience. Likewise the attitude that the music is in some ways, meant as much for cultural export as expressing something "unique". Motown was meant to be sanitized for white people and scaled back some of the rhythm. Kpop is likewise meant for a more "universal" sound rather than a distinctly Korean one. As the Supremes became fashion icons, so too with Kpop stars. The music is focused on being catchy and familiar. Most songs are about love, although K-pop has done the reverse and gone from social issues to genericism whereas Motown went from genericism to social issues. The pressure for the stars to be diplomats and "acceptable" is there as well.
Of course there are some obvious differences- Motown had a different sound, a greater degree of musicianship, and was a truly massive global phenomenon, but in several aspects there is a comparison and Kpop owes much of its model to that created in Detroit. |
So you agree--they've heard of them, they know who they are, they know some of the most popular tunes and may even be able to hum along to them.
Yes, I talk to Koreans who are in their 50s and 60s.
Stop with the Motown comparisons. There are no K-pop Marvin Gayes, Smoky Robinsons, Arethas, Michael Jacksons, Holland-Dozier-Holland, Funk Brothers and on and on.
You obviously couldn't carry a tune in a Panzer tank, herr g. |
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Steelrails
Joined: 12 Mar 2009
Location: Earth, Solar System
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| Posted: Thu May 22, 2014 7:51 pm Post subject: |
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| atwood wrote: |
| Steelrails wrote: |
Here's a question- what degree of confidence do you have that if you were to have a conversation with 20 random Koreans over the age of 50, that they would have much success in identifying and conversing about K-Pop idols?
I think the answers would be pretty basic- "I've heard OF them" or "That's the group my granddaughter likes". Pretty much what you'd get from a 50 year old back home- "Oh yeah, Bruno Mars, he's that guy that did the Super Bowl halftime show" or "Oh yeah, I saw Robin Thicke on Ellen". Most Americans can identify Snoop Dogg, but that doesn't make them fans. That just means his name has been in the news and movies ad nausem. And most would probably call him "Snoopy Dogg" just like most 50 year olds here would call Big Bang, Bang Bang after the clothing company.
Do you actually talk to 50 year old Koreans? As a church attendee, I did sometimes. They barely have a clue about today's pop stars much less those from 1994 when everything started. They might be able to toss out a couple names, but that's it. Talking about Kpop is an absolute non-starter.
| Quote: |
| So are we to now add to your list of accomplishments--fashion maven, soda sommelier, pilot's pal, nautical novice, pizza tosser, Circle K clerk--broadcasting insider? |
Are you saying you haven't accomplished anything with your life or had some interesting experiences?
===================================================
Anyways, I think if you can compare Kpop as an industry to anything, it would be Motown, certainly not in terms of quality or international fame, but in method, outlook, and context.
Kpop is manufactured and assembled with a centrally controlled group of relatively anonymous musicians generating the music for the acts ala Motown and the Funk Brothers. As poet John Sinclair said, Berry Gordy took the automotive assembly line and applied it to music. Of course, the Funk Brothers made beautiful songs whereas most of Kpop is bleh. Similarly, KPop is a sort of new-rich phenomenon. Going from utter poverty into increasing levels of prosperity mirrors the Northern industrial African-American experience. Likewise the attitude that the music is in some ways, meant as much for cultural export as expressing something "unique". Motown was meant to be sanitized for white people and scaled back some of the rhythm. Kpop is likewise meant for a more "universal" sound rather than a distinctly Korean one. As the Supremes became fashion icons, so too with Kpop stars. The music is focused on being catchy and familiar. Most songs are about love, although K-pop has done the reverse and gone from social issues to genericism whereas Motown went from genericism to social issues. The pressure for the stars to be diplomats and "acceptable" is there as well.
Of course there are some obvious differences- Motown had a different sound, a greater degree of musicianship, and was a truly massive global phenomenon, but in several aspects there is a comparison and Kpop owes much of its model to that created in Detroit. |
So you agree--they've heard of them, they know who they are, they know some of the most popular tunes and may even be able to hum along to them.
Yes, I talk to Koreans who are in their 50s and 60s.
Stop with the Motown comparisons. There are no K-pop Marvin Gayes, Smoky Robinsons, Arethas, Michael Jacksons, Holland-Dozier-Holland, Funk Brothers and on and on.
You obviously couldn't carry a tune in a Panzer tank, herr g. |
Way to completely not comprehend what I said.
They may know OF them. That doesn't mean they know them.
And you completely misunderstood what I was trying to say about Motown-Kpop. It's about understanding the origins of manufactured music and understanding the mindset behind distributing music for "export". |
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atwood
Joined: 26 Dec 2009
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| Posted: Thu May 22, 2014 7:59 pm Post subject: |
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| Steelrails wrote: |
| atwood wrote: |
| Steelrails wrote: |
Here's a question- what degree of confidence do you have that if you were to have a conversation with 20 random Koreans over the age of 50, that they would have much success in identifying and conversing about K-Pop idols?
I think the answers would be pretty basic- "I've heard OF them" or "That's the group my granddaughter likes". Pretty much what you'd get from a 50 year old back home- "Oh yeah, Bruno Mars, he's that guy that did the Super Bowl halftime show" or "Oh yeah, I saw Robin Thicke on Ellen". Most Americans can identify Snoop Dogg, but that doesn't make them fans. That just means his name has been in the news and movies ad nausem. And most would probably call him "Snoopy Dogg" just like most 50 year olds here would call Big Bang, Bang Bang after the clothing company.
Do you actually talk to 50 year old Koreans? As a church attendee, I did sometimes. They barely have a clue about today's pop stars much less those from 1994 when everything started. They might be able to toss out a couple names, but that's it. Talking about Kpop is an absolute non-starter.
| Quote: |
| So are we to now add to your list of accomplishments--fashion maven, soda sommelier, pilot's pal, nautical novice, pizza tosser, Circle K clerk--broadcasting insider? |
Are you saying you haven't accomplished anything with your life or had some interesting experiences?
===================================================
Anyways, I think if you can compare Kpop as an industry to anything, it would be Motown, certainly not in terms of quality or international fame, but in method, outlook, and context.
Kpop is manufactured and assembled with a centrally controlled group of relatively anonymous musicians generating the music for the acts ala Motown and the Funk Brothers. As poet John Sinclair said, Berry Gordy took the automotive assembly line and applied it to music. Of course, the Funk Brothers made beautiful songs whereas most of Kpop is bleh. Similarly, KPop is a sort of new-rich phenomenon. Going from utter poverty into increasing levels of prosperity mirrors the Northern industrial African-American experience. Likewise the attitude that the music is in some ways, meant as much for cultural export as expressing something "unique". Motown was meant to be sanitized for white people and scaled back some of the rhythm. Kpop is likewise meant for a more "universal" sound rather than a distinctly Korean one. As the Supremes became fashion icons, so too with Kpop stars. The music is focused on being catchy and familiar. Most songs are about love, although K-pop has done the reverse and gone from social issues to genericism whereas Motown went from genericism to social issues. The pressure for the stars to be diplomats and "acceptable" is there as well.
Of course there are some obvious differences- Motown had a different sound, a greater degree of musicianship, and was a truly massive global phenomenon, but in several aspects there is a comparison and Kpop owes much of its model to that created in Detroit. |
So you agree--they've heard of them, they know who they are, they know some of the most popular tunes and may even be able to hum along to them.
Yes, I talk to Koreans who are in their 50s and 60s.
Stop with the Motown comparisons. There are no K-pop Marvin Gayes, Smoky Robinsons, Arethas, Michael Jacksons, Holland-Dozier-Holland, Funk Brothers and on and on.
You obviously couldn't carry a tune in a Panzer tank, herr g. |
Way to completely not comprehend what I said.
They may know OF them. That doesn't mean they know them.
And you completely misunderstood what I was trying to say about Motown-Kpop. It's about understanding the origins of manufactured music and understanding the mindset behind distributing music for "export". |
Sorry for giving you credit for actually making sense regarding the over-50 Korean demographic.
I understood exactly what you were TRYING to do by comparing K-pop to Motown. Your motives are all too clear, herr g.
Block that derail! Block that derail! Block that derail! |
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edwardcatflap
Joined: 22 Mar 2009
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| Posted: Thu May 22, 2014 8:09 pm Post subject: |
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| I can safely say that my parents, who are a little older than my in laws, would not be able to name a single pop star or group from the last ten years from any country. None, not a single one. |
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Mix1
Joined: 08 May 2007
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| Posted: Fri May 23, 2014 8:10 pm Post subject: |
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| Steelrails wrote: |
Do Koreans need permission from Americans or you to make their own pop or rap songs?
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Nice spin.
They can make something, and the results will be judged, which is what is happening now.
But even in cases where they DO need permission to copy, they often don't get the permission anyway. (Samsung, etc.) So permission or not, the copying is the constant pattern here, from blatant illegal copying, to changing it just enough to avoid legal actions.
And the phrase "their own" is an overstatement.
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Funny, when Australia or the UK has rock bands, we don't call it a rip off of American music. We call them rock bands from the UK or Australia. However when it comes to Koreans, there is a double standard and instead of them just being Korean pop groups to some people, they are "rip offs". And a good many of those songs you talk about were more than influence, they WERE straight up rip-offs.
Look, either British rock and rollers are "rip offs" too or people in every country can make pop, rap, and rock music without having it be a rip off.
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Nice attempt at trying to spread the "blame" around equally. It's an extension of the SAME-SAME apologist argument that always comes up and always loses.
I guess that's what you have to do when you can't defend Korean (K-pop). But for the sake of argument, go ahead and name one of these "rip-offs" you mention. And will this one "rip-off" compare to the shameless widespread 1-1 copy culture of K-pop?
Another hole (of many) in your analogy is that the growth and evolution of rock has a shared history between the U.S. and U.K. and to a lesser extent Australia, Ireland, New Zealand, Canada, etc. They fed off each other and even today each tend to have their own signature styles (subtle or not).
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And Kpop isn't marketing itself as the inventor of pop or rap, they are marketing it as "this is our take on pop and rap", the same way America markets its take on the pizza.
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Again, that's not ALL they are saying.
"Cultural export"
How many times will that need to be explained?
Of course they don't directly say they invented anything because they know better, even if the audience here doesn't.
Another bad analogy: America does NOT take pizza and re-promote it as an American "cultural export". Also, American pizza is radically different than Italian pizza, as is Korean pizza from American. If we are talking about copying pizzas, then I applaud Korean's unique take on pizza. Some of the pizzas here with the crazy ingredients on top are pretty decent. Something NEW! No problem there. Now, if they copied all the WORST parts of American style pizza and tried re-market globally as a decent, novel product, yes then that would be less admirable.
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There are a bunch of people over 50 who have no clue who Big Bang is beyond the fact that their kid is always asking for crap with Big Bang's name on it. That's a serious chunk of the population and to be upset at them for liking Kpop, which is something they don't do, and I'm willing to bet a sizable number despise, is just really unfair and illogical. |
Still clinging to this one? The illogical thing is continually missing the point as you tend to do. Nobody is "upset" at the adults for liking or trumpeting K-pop, just that it outlined a different from most western adults in relation to pop. Also, first you pushed the age to "over 40" to try to prove your point, now it's "over 50" ... will your next post be "over 80"?  |
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World Traveler
Joined: 29 May 2009
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The Cosmic Hum
Joined: 09 May 2003
Location: Sonic Space
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| Posted: Sun May 25, 2014 5:34 pm Post subject: |
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| Though Jung says he’s not so sure American men will feel the same way about the girls as he does. |
No shit Sherlock.
This guy is pathetic. |
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Steelrails
Joined: 12 Mar 2009
Location: Earth, Solar System
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| Posted: Mon May 26, 2014 4:30 am Post subject: |
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Dude, its dance pop. What kind of radically different sound are you expecting?
This argument makes about as much sense as accusing another country of "ripping off" American movies because they work in the genres of "action" or "thriller".
It's pop music. Every country around the world makes it. People listen to it the world over the way they all watch Spider Man movies. If people in Chile or India or even yes, the U.S., make a Kung-Fu movie, we don't scream that they aren't being original. It's a kung-fu movie. Everyone likes it. Go ahead and make it. Same with pop music.
We don't scream at other countries for making movies in the genre of "action" or "romance" or "musical" or "suspense" or "horror" and promoting their country's film industry. Why is it such a big deal for Korea (and incidentally no other country) to work in the genre of "pop" or "dance" or "hip hop" or "R&B"?
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| America does NOT take pizza and re-promote it as an American "cultural export" |
It's corporations sure do. You don't think there isn't elements of American culture being exported in Domino's or Pizza Hut? They aren't going with a bunch of Italian imagery there. Or how about McDonald's?
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| Also, first you pushed the age to "over 40" to try to prove your point, now it's "over 50" ... will your next post be "over 80"? |
Fine, most Korean adults over 40 do not listen to Kpop. And no, that article doesn't prove crap. That's one of those "Japanese kids all lick each other's eyeballs" articles that you get in foreign media that people think is some big trend but actually is just a niche fad. If all 40 and over Korean guys were that into SNSD or whatever, their events would be a LOT bigger.
In the end, I have two points- 1) Pop music is more popular back home, even amongst adults, than you give it credit for. If 20% of Korean adults over 40 are familiar with a few famous groups, I'm willing to bet the same is true for American adults, especially soccer moms, and people who regularly watch late night talk shows and Ellen. Heck, even people who watch the news. I mean, just listen to radio talk shows and people like Bill O'Reilly ranting about Ludacris, or Howard Stern talking about Chris Brown and Rihanna. Celebrities are celebrities. Point 2)It's not as widespread amongst Korean adults as you are making it out to be. Just like America, some are familiar. News cycle, their kids screaming for the music, talk shows, etc. Same as back home. That doesn't mean they like it. That doesn't mean they're going out and getting concert tickets and talking to their friends at church about getting a Big Bang sticker book and which one is cuter. I think its more important to look at their actions rather than what they say. Their words "Oh yes, Kpop good", might make you think they are all big Kpop fans. But anyone who is not a simpleton would look instead at their actions and what they actually listen to. It's not Kpop. It's talk, news, trot, classical, and 'pop songs'.
Unless you really do believe that every generic answer Koreans spew out in your conversation class is truly what they think... |
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atwood
Joined: 26 Dec 2009
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| Posted: Mon May 26, 2014 8:58 am Post subject: |
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The only one screaming is you, herr g.
Your analogies continue to be laughable. And along with being a pilot's best friend, you're now a mind reader.
"Koreans don't really like K-pop. They just join group clubs, buy merchandise, watch the TV programs they star in, wait for them at the airport, scream and cry when they spot them in public and SAY they like it when they really don't."
And dude, everyone knows Koreans listen to classic, not classical, music. You're the one not listening. |
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World Traveler
Joined: 29 May 2009
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| Posted: Thu Jan 01, 2015 12:36 am Post subject: |
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| Stan Rogers wrote: |
| yea yea yea, enough about the past. What's number 1 right now? |
This:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1ZRb1we80kM
Comes with a dance.
(Why are the two rappers wearing 'Seoul 1988 Olympics' hats?) |
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