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Egalitarianism.
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Leon



Joined: 31 May 2010

PostPosted: Sun Jun 15, 2014 5:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Titus wrote:
Leon, you've jumped up and down demanding that one must not reference the scorched earth of American war mongering when discussing Russian actions in Crimea. The two are unrelated. Now we're going to make these comparisons?

Anyway, yes, Russia has an enormous underclass of drunken waste. Best to pay these people not to breed. Maybe reparations to the underclass will help?


Well, as long as you are consistent I guess. I was just curious about your response. When we talk about underclasses here, it seems that we are using genetics for the black underclass, but what about the white American underclass? I'm trying to sketch out what it is that you are actually saying here.
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Titus



Joined: 19 May 2012

PostPosted: Sun Jun 15, 2014 6:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Genetics, family breakdown, degenerate culture, alcohol/drugs. The Russian relationship with alcohol is even worse than the Korean. Afgan opium continues to run wild in Eastern Europe as well.

I am not making a fundamentalist argument about genetics. All the big traits are heritable, but the use of social shaming, stigma, punishment can diminish underclass behavior. I'm quite sure that you've also argued with me about my desire to see an aggressively traditionalist culture to help tame the passions of the proles.
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Leon



Joined: 31 May 2010

PostPosted: Sun Jun 15, 2014 6:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Titus wrote:
Genetics, family breakdown, degenerate culture, alcohol/drugs. The Russian relationship with alcohol is even worse than the Korean. Afgan opium continues to run wild in Eastern Europe as well.

I am not making a fundamentalist argument about genetics. All the big traits are heritable, but the use of social shaming, stigma, punishment can diminish underclass behavior. I'm quite sure that you've also argued with me about my desire to see an aggressively traditionalist culture to help tame the passions of the proles.


Yes, this is all part of a long ongoing conversation. All the things you mentioned are important for creating social boundaries of acceptable and non-acceptable behaviors. They don't matter much compared to basic economics, though. In poor urban neighborhoods where there is little opportunity, where prohibition insures a product has an inflated profit margin, and where the second amendment insures guns are cheap and everywhere, what good is social shaming compared to that?

You can see the same thing happening in places like West Virginia.

That stuff you are talking about in Russia is helping, at least specifically for crime probably, but what is that compared to being right next to Afghanistan?
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Titus



Joined: 19 May 2012

PostPosted: Sun Jun 15, 2014 6:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Yes, this is all part of a long ongoing conversation. All the things you mentioned are important for creating social boundaries of acceptable and non-acceptable behaviors. They don't matter much compared to basic economics, though. In poor urban neighborhoods where there is little opportunity, where prohibition insures a product has an inflated profit margin, and where the second amendment insures guns are cheap and everywhere, what good is social shaming compared to that?


I agree with you, though where will will disagree in in the genetic restraints on how high the black community can rise. It surely can't get much worse than it is now.

The American government has been two-faced with black people.

One the one hand we have AA, and the various welfare programs, anti-discrimination legislation, hundreds of billions dumped into schools, etc all to try and uplift them.

On the other hand, the CIA was selling drugs into the black community, there is the mass incarceration, allowing Lil John to dominant the culture, etc which seems like a good way to ruin a people.
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Leon



Joined: 31 May 2010

PostPosted: Sun Jun 15, 2014 6:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Titus wrote:
Quote:
Yes, this is all part of a long ongoing conversation. All the things you mentioned are important for creating social boundaries of acceptable and non-acceptable behaviors. They don't matter much compared to basic economics, though. In poor urban neighborhoods where there is little opportunity, where prohibition insures a product has an inflated profit margin, and where the second amendment insures guns are cheap and everywhere, what good is social shaming compared to that?


I agree with you, though where will will disagree in in the genetic restraints on how high the black community can rise. It surely can't get much worse than it is now.

The American government has been two-faced with black people.

One the one hand we have AA, and the various welfare programs, anti-discrimination legislation, hundreds of billions dumped into schools, etc all to try and uplift them.

On the other hand, the CIA was selling drugs into the black community, there is the mass incarceration, allowing Lil John to dominant the culture, etc which seems like a good way to ruin a people.


Well, I propose an experiment. End the drug war, give amnesty and erase the criminal records of low level drug offenders, and give out reparations to the people who lost years of life for low level drug offenses, push out 15 and 20 years, and see if things have dramatically improved or not. To reach parity would probably take generations, but 15-20 years of what I propose should be enough to establish a strong trend.

The difficult part is would be getting society to agree to give it a shot, but who knows it seems to be slowing moving in that direction.
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Fox



Joined: 04 Mar 2009

PostPosted: Tue Jul 08, 2014 7:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The 'i-word' is un-American.

Quote:
In the 1980s, during the rise of the gay rights movement, North Carolina Sen. Jesse Helms accused a political opponent for supporting "f*ggots, perverts [and] sexual deviates of this nation."

Today, opponents of immigration reform attack undocumented immigrants as "illegal immigrants." Even worse, like anti-immigration extremists, some prominent elected officials use the term "illegals." Maine Gov. Paul LePage, a Republican, said, "I urge all Mainers to tell your city councilors and selectmen to stop handing out your money to illegals."

Not the same thing? Of course it is.


I'm not entirely unsympathetic to her overall position -- Latin American immigration has been made out to be a bigger problem than it really is, largely for political reasons -- but I dislike the way in which these kinds of political activism often devolve into wars on language. "Illegal immigrants" or "illegal aliens" is a perfectly descriptive, reasonable term.
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Kuros



Joined: 27 Apr 2004

PostPosted: Tue Jul 08, 2014 7:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Fox wrote:
"Illegal immigrants" or "illegal aliens" is a perfectly descriptive, reasonable term.


Its a pejorative, loaded term.

The following acts are all illegal, in the broadest sense of the term:

(1) murder
(2) counterfeiting money
(3) tax evasion
(4) traffic violation
(5) parking without paying the meter

All these things are similar in the sense that they are prohibited by law, i.e. are unlawful, i.e. are illegal.

Now, there are several ways we can group and distinguish these acts. The best way: delineate by the nature of the punishment. (1) and (2) are likely to result in incarceration. (3) may result in incarceration but will probably result in fines. (4) and (5) will never result in incarceration and may result in fines.

Crossing the border without documentation is more like (4) or (5) than (1) or (2) or even (3).
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Fox



Joined: 04 Mar 2009

PostPosted: Tue Jul 08, 2014 7:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Kuros wrote:
Fox wrote:
"Illegal immigrants" or "illegal aliens" is a perfectly descriptive, reasonable term.


Its a pejorative, loaded term.


It's a factual term. The people involved have broken, and continue to break, the law with regards to their immigration.

Kuros wrote:
The following acts are all illegal, in the broadest sense of the term:

(5) parking without paying the meter


And yet even in this least severe case, if one were to say, "Oh, that car is parked illegally," would we hear complaint about the "pejorative" terminology being used? Of course not, because it's simply true. Many illegal immigrants are guilty only of a misdemeanor. They are none the less in violation of the law. You can push for a more reasonable and balanced characterization of their actions without polluting our medium of communication in the process. Can and should.
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Leon



Joined: 31 May 2010

PostPosted: Wed Jul 09, 2014 2:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Fox wrote:
The 'i-word' is un-American.

Quote:
In the 1980s, during the rise of the gay rights movement, North Carolina Sen. Jesse Helms accused a political opponent for supporting "f*ggots, perverts [and] sexual deviates of this nation."

Today, opponents of immigration reform attack undocumented immigrants as "illegal immigrants." Even worse, like anti-immigration extremists, some prominent elected officials use the term "illegals." Maine Gov. Paul LePage, a Republican, said, "I urge all Mainers to tell your city councilors and selectmen to stop handing out your money to illegals."

Not the same thing? Of course it is.


I'm not entirely unsympathetic to her overall position -- Latin American immigration has been made out to be a bigger problem than it really is, largely for political reasons -- but I dislike the way in which these kinds of political activism often devolve into wars on language. "Illegal immigrants" or "illegal aliens" is a perfectly descriptive, reasonable term.


What about just calling them illegals without any second word, that's the one that I've heard actual people use the most? I don't care that much about the semantics as I do that in large part our drug policies and lose gun policies are helping to create the insane levels of violence that are driving the current waves of kids coming to the border. That and if we think back to our recent history of sponsoring coups and death squads in Latin America, we should be a little more slow to condemn the people.
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Fox



Joined: 04 Mar 2009

PostPosted: Wed Jul 09, 2014 2:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Leon wrote:

What about just calling them illegals without any second word, that's the one that I've heard actual people use the most?


Just lazy speech really, everyone knows what it means.

Leon wrote:
in large part our drug policies and lose gun policies are helping to create the insane levels of violence that are driving the current waves of kids coming to the border. That and if we think back to our recent history of sponsoring coups and death squads in Latin America, we should be a little more slow to condemn the people.


I largely agree, but none of that is mutually-exclusive with my desire to see people stop going to war against language in hopes of achieving their political ends. I can agree with Kuros that the legal violation of illegal immigrants is (and should be) relatively mild, and with you that American policy is severely dysfunctional as described above, while still wanting our language to remain free of this kind of perversion.

I'm not condemning would-be immigrants. I think their desires are understandable, and I think they're largely compatible with the broader American cultural tapestry. They're still in violation of the law, and no one should take issue with someone verbally acknowledging that fact, much less compare it to racial slurs and insist that the "I word" needs to fall out of usage. You people can quarrel over politics all you like, but don't soil my mother tongue with your damned political infighting.

Also, let's not ban bossy while we're at it.
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Leon



Joined: 31 May 2010

PostPosted: Wed Jul 09, 2014 3:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Fox wrote:
Leon wrote:

What about just calling them illegals without any second word, that's the one that I've heard actual people use the most?


Just lazy speech really, everyone knows what it means.

Leon wrote:
in large part our drug policies and lose gun policies are helping to create the insane levels of violence that are driving the current waves of kids coming to the border. That and if we think back to our recent history of sponsoring coups and death squads in Latin America, we should be a little more slow to condemn the people.


I largely agree, but none of that is mutually-exclusive with my desire to see people stop going to war against language in hopes of achieving their political ends. I can agree with Kuros that the legal violation of illegal immigrants is (and should be) relatively mild, and with you that American policy is severely dysfunctional as described above, while still wanting our language to remain free of this kind of perversion.

I'm not condemning would-be immigrants. I think their desires are understandable, and I think they're largely compatible with the broader American cultural tapestry. They're still in violation of the law, and no one should take issue with someone verbally acknowledging that fact, much less compare it to racial slurs and insist that the "I word" needs to fall out of usage. You people can quarrel over politics all you like, but don't soil my mother tongue with your damned political infighting.

Also, let's not ban bossy while we're at it.


I've been reading about neuroscience and politics lately, and it is interesting how political consultants test response to certain words, and then create images and ideas and use them consistently with those words to create mental frames so that the words become shorthands for complete ideas and almost worldviews that narrow the possible conversation. I agree, I wish language wasn't used like this, but it is a big business for people like Frank Luntz and others to use scientific methods to manipulate words for political ends, so I don't mind people mentioning it as such.

I don't really mind the words as much as the hate that so many people put behind them when they are saying it, or the almost complete lack of interest in why they are leaving their countries, or how our policies have affected their countries.
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Fox



Joined: 04 Mar 2009

PostPosted: Wed Jul 09, 2014 3:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Leon wrote:
people like Frank Luntz


Funny aside, I remember reading an interview sometime back where Frank Luntz was whining about how partisan and polarized our nation's politics have become. It was cute.
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Leon



Joined: 31 May 2010

PostPosted: Wed Jul 09, 2014 3:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Fox wrote:
Leon wrote:
people like Frank Luntz


Funny aside, I remember reading an interview sometime back where Frank Luntz was whining about how partisan and polarized our nation's politics have become. It was cute.


That was probably a calculated whine that was market tested. Earlier this year I tried to take a class about campaigning at Harvard (I was kicked out after the first week because too many students had signed up) and lung a book was the text book. This is how people are trained to be politicians, to manipulate words and hide meanings, kind of like how rhetoric is discussed in the Socratic dialogue you referenced earlier.
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Fox



Joined: 04 Mar 2009

PostPosted: Wed Jul 09, 2014 3:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Leon wrote:
Fox wrote:
Leon wrote:
people like Frank Luntz


Funny aside, I remember reading an interview sometime back where Frank Luntz was whining about how partisan and polarized our nation's politics have become. It was cute.


That was probably a calculated whine that was market tested.


I thought so as well, there was no way a reasonably intelligent man could be that lacking in self-awareness. But it's also so hard for me to really believe that anyone could actually fall for the game he was playing there. The idea that anyone could read such a thing and do anything but chuckle is simply unfathomable to me. I suppose that's why I'm not in politics.
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Leon



Joined: 31 May 2010

PostPosted: Wed Jul 09, 2014 4:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Fox wrote:
Leon wrote:
Fox wrote:
Leon wrote:
people like Frank Luntz


Funny aside, I remember reading an interview sometime back where Frank Luntz was whining about how partisan and polarized our nation's politics have become. It was cute.


That was probably a calculated whine that was market tested.


I thought so as well, there was no way a reasonably intelligent man could be that lacking in self-awareness. But it's also so hard for me to really believe that anyone could actually fall for the game he was playing there. The idea that anyone could read such a thing and do anything but chuckle is simply unfathomable to me. I suppose that's why I'm not in politics.


If you were on his 'side' and wanted to believe it, then you would.
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