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Egalitarianism.
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Kuros



Joined: 27 Apr 2004

PostPosted: Tue Jan 14, 2014 6:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Titus wrote:
Kuros wrote:
Titus wrote:
Poverty causes crime, American whites secretly conspire to keep all good jobs, FICA scores are racist, whites won't let non-whites into good areas/school districts, colleges don't let enough non-whites in etc. .


When Congress decided to remedy the 100:1 sentencing disparity for crack sentences versus cocaine sentences, they brought the ratio down to 18:1. Blacks tend to consume crack and whites tend to consume cocaine.


No racism here, folks!


I remember when the crack epidemic was raging and melting down entire sections of cities. The government was commanded to Do Something. It did. And it worked.


Ah, Titus. Cheerleading the Drug War now?

Its gotten so much worse than vanilla racism for you, hasn't it?

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-DUO_rfCqKWg/TgJnr4t9UEI/AAAAAAAAAM8/WbIiQFSirxg/s1600/incarceration_wiki_Prisoner_population_rate_UN_HDR_2007_2008.PNG
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Fox



Joined: 04 Mar 2009

PostPosted: Tue Jan 14, 2014 6:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Kuros wrote:

There's a great many CBC members there, particularly at the top of the list. In 1986, CBC members likely thought tough sentences would rid the black community of crack-cocaine, but by 2009 they were disabused of this notion. Nevertheless, Republicans and Blue Dogs could not let a straight 1:1 ratio pass.


But could they not let that 1:1 ratio pass because they despise Blacks (i.e. they are racists), or are they simply still misguidedly operating under the same logic under which the Congressional Black Caucus was operating in the 80s? Or, perhaps even worse, simply because they don't want to appear "soft on drugs" for political reasons? There's a disparate impact, but I'm not convinced that racism is the only possible motivating factor.
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Titus



Joined: 19 May 2012

PostPosted: Tue Jan 14, 2014 6:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Kuros, my statement was true.

1) I remember when the crack epidemic was raging and melting down entire sections of cities. True.

2) The government was commanded to Do Something. True.

3) It did. And it worked. True.

Now, the "racist" thing to do is to say "fk these people they can't be helped" build a wall around them and let them just kill each other off. Not to take billions of dollars from producers and throw it away via incarceration.

The war on drugs is an inefficient way to control crime. Stop and frisk is my preferred method.
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Kuros



Joined: 27 Apr 2004

PostPosted: Tue Jan 14, 2014 7:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Titus wrote:


Now, the "racist" thing to do is to say "fk these people they can't be helped" build a wall around them and let them just kill each other off. Not to take billions of dollars from producers and throw it away via incarceration.


You're right, the first thing you mentioned is more racist than the second. The second is racist, not necessarily in 1986 when good faith can be supposed, but it is by 2009 when we know the drug war does not reduce demand or inhibit the supply of drugs.

Quote:
The war on drugs is an inefficient way to control crime. Stop and frisk is my preferred method.


Stop and frisk is a tactic of the drug war. You stop 'em and frisk 'em and incarcerate them for petty possession. Sometimes you'll get a gun or two.
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Kuros



Joined: 27 Apr 2004

PostPosted: Tue Jan 14, 2014 7:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Fox wrote:
Kuros wrote:

There's a great many CBC members there, particularly at the top of the list. In 1986, CBC members likely thought tough sentences would rid the black community of crack-cocaine, but by 2009 they were disabused of this notion. Nevertheless, Republicans and Blue Dogs could not let a straight 1:1 ratio pass.


But could they not let that 1:1 ratio pass because they despise Blacks (i.e. they are racists), or are they simply still misguidedly operating under the same logic under which the Congressional Black Caucus was operating in the 80s? Or, perhaps even worse, simply because they don't want to appear "soft on drugs" for political reasons? There's a disparate impact, but I'm not convinced that racism is the only possible motivating factor.


Its racist by 2009, yes. I see your argument for 1986.
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Titus



Joined: 19 May 2012

PostPosted: Wed Jan 15, 2014 5:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Kuros, your position is that the only reason for the crack laws is racism?

Do you remember 4 years or so back when California tried to legalize pot? The largest single source of funds to oppose that ballot measure came from the California Prison Guard Union. #2 was GEO Group (the Boca Raton based conglomerate that runs prisons).

Quote:
Stop and frisk is a tactic of the drug war.


It brings order and does not require the drug war. The NYPD has done an excellent job using S&F and crime data.
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Kuros



Joined: 27 Apr 2004

PostPosted: Wed Jan 15, 2014 4:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Titus wrote:
Kuros, your position is that the only reason for the crack laws is racism?


By 2009 and 2010, it was racist for Congress to adopt a law that limited the crack to cocaine sentencing to 18:1 instead of eliminating it altogether. This does not mean that racism was the only factor. Also present were cruelty, avarice, stupidity, ignorance, etc.

I also despise minimum sentencing guidelines generally. It shifts the power from the judges to the prosecutors.
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Titus



Joined: 19 May 2012

PostPosted: Wed Jan 15, 2014 5:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The war on drugs is a pointless adventure. In truth, I don't entirely disagree with your premise. Nixon was clear that the war on drugs was a means to deal with black crime. Not black people. Black crime. I'm not going to search for the quote but it is from his recently released private conversations. The point is that the black crime was the preexisting condition. When the war on drugs ends the crime will still exist and the producers will find another way to clean up cities.

Where I part from you is in the allegation of racism. Nixon didn't hate blacks. He was responding to black criminality. A white who avoids a black area and groups of black people isn't racist. He is sensible (I believe you in part agreed with that when we discussed Derb's article). A government that passes laws based on crime data isn't racist, it is sensible. These laws can have all kinds of deleterious consequences but the intention isn't to punish blacks for existing but rather to bring order to the cities. Cities are an accomplishment and ought not be left to the destructive forces of the underclass. Order!

So, we do away with the crack laws and the other drug laws. How will America bring order to the North Eastern cities? What does Miami do with Overtown being walking distance from corporate head offices and expensive towers that house producing workers? If Miami can't bring order to downtown and Brickell and the other areas the workers will move out of the metro and the city will lose tax revenue and not be able to meet obligations and maintain services (Detroitification). I'm curious. I say do away with the war on drugs and use S&F + vagrancy laws. You?
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Kuros



Joined: 27 Apr 2004

PostPosted: Thu Jan 16, 2014 6:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I am not so concerned with which politician hates blacks at which time. The system works against blacks, they have the least power and representation of any American group.

There may not have been anything significantly racist about the drug war even as late as the 1980s. Even Nixon, architect of the Southern strategy, could have pursued the drug war first out of reasons of power and second because he was a law and order proponent.

It is remarkable that you would in this thread call racism a ghost from the past and a false explanation for just about anything, however, when we see that Congress, as late as 2010, could not bring itself to bring crack cocaine and cocaine sentencing in line with one another.

The white person who avoids a predominantly black neighborhood is probably acting out of prudence. Blacks are not saints, and they exhibit racism and sometimes violence against white people. Racial segregation may be a natural condition, anyway.

To what extent is the poverty of blacks due to racism? To some significant extent. I will not sit here and call it racism when police arrest blacks for violent crimes, even if they focus more on blacks who commit violent crimes.

Nevertheless, it is unacceptable to target all blacks out of suspicion that any single black is more likely to commit a crime. Such group profiling has more in common with occupation and militarization than it does with police work and the effective maintenance of order. It falsely supposes that blacks as a group support crime, even though black people are most often also the victims of criminal behavior.

Stop and frisk is militarization. Its roaming checkpoints. Its great interference because of baseless suspicion. Its the police as an occupying force, turning an entire race into hostiles.

We would be better off, I am not advocating this mind you, turning already segregated areas into virtual ghettos and allowing black police officers to patrol those areas.

At some point you have to accept that diversity happened. The various States made it happen because blacks could toil long and hard near swamps and under the sun. Now that diversity has happened it is time to make the best of it, even if it is inefficient.

I am so tired of efficiency, anyway. Whose efficiency is it, after all?
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bigverne



Joined: 12 May 2004

PostPosted: Thu Jan 16, 2014 8:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Nevertheless, it is unacceptable to target all blacks out of suspicion that any single black is more likely to commit a crime.


Not all blacks. I really doubt the police are going around frisking old black men and women.
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Titus



Joined: 19 May 2012

PostPosted: Thu Jan 16, 2014 8:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
We would be better off, I am not advocating this mind you, turning already segregated areas into virtual ghettos and allowing black police officers to patrol those areas.


You're not advocating it but I agree with it. The Nation of Islam was patrolling black areas of Miami for a time (OVertown, Little Haiti, Miami Gardens). Armed patrols. It was - even according to the Miami Herald - pretty darn successful.

A benefit of strict segregation is that the talented portion of the group is forced to live around (and therefore provide an example to and manage) the lesser capable of the group. With desegregation the talented tenth moved to nice white areas and the ones left behind went feral.
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bigverne



Joined: 12 May 2004

PostPosted: Thu Jan 16, 2014 10:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Boys playing with lego and girls playing with dolls is bad, according to the so-called Conservative education secretary.

Gender specific toys 'put girls off' maths and science, says Education Minister

Manufacturers risk turning girls off careers in science and maths by producing gender-specific toys, the Education Minister has warned.

Elizabeth Truss said that companies marketing chemistry sets exclusively at boys was the “antithesis of what we want to promote” in the state school system.

She called for parents to buy more Lego for their daughters to get them interested in engineering.

Mrs Truss also backed a campaign established to call for the abolition of gender segregation in toy departments, insisting girls should not be pushed into fashion over farming.


http://www.telegraph.co.uk/education/educationnews/10578106/Gender-specific-toys-put-girls-off-maths-and-science.html
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Titus



Joined: 19 May 2012

PostPosted: Tue Jan 28, 2014 5:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

http://www.theatlantic.com/national/archive/2014/01/the-racially-fraught-history-of-the-american-beard/283180/

The Atlantic says beards are racist.

The best paragraph:

Quote:
The most important explanation for whites’ anxiety about the shop, however, involved black barbers’ growing wealth. For many, the success of leading African-American barbers seemed to threaten the social order. As white customers were shaved by men with fortunes worth many thousands of dollars, some must have wondered who was serving whom.


Yes...some must have wondered..

Quote:
Sean Trainor is a doctoral candidate in history and women’s studies at Penn State University.
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Kuros



Joined: 27 Apr 2004

PostPosted: Sat Feb 01, 2014 1:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Women do not [unjustifiably] make less money than men

Quote:
Consider, for example, how men and women differ in their college majors. Here is a list (PDF) of the ten most remunerative majors compiled by the Georgetown University Center on Education and the Workforce. Men overwhelmingly outnumber women in all but one of them:

1. Petroleum Engineering: 87% male
2. Pharmacy Pharmaceutical Sciences and Administration: 48% male
3. Mathematics and Computer Science: 67% male
4. Aerospace Engineering: 88% male
5. Chemical Engineering: 72% male
6. Electrical Engineering: 89% male
7. Naval Architecture and Marine Engineering: 97% male
8. Mechanical Engineering: 90% male
9. Metallurgical Engineering: 83% male
10. Mining and Mineral Engineering: 90% male

And here are the 10 least remunerative majors—where women prevail in nine out of ten:

1. Counseling Psychology: 74% female
2. Early Childhood Education: 97% female
3. Theology and Religious Vocations: 34% female
4. Human Services and Community Organization: 81% female
5. Social Work: 88% female
6. Drama and Theater Arts: 60% female
7. Studio Arts: 66% female
8. Communication Disorders Sciences and Services: 94% female
9. Visual and Performing Arts: 77% female
10. Health and Medical Preparatory Programs: 55% female
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Rteacher



Joined: 23 May 2005
Location: Western MA, USA

PostPosted: Sat Feb 01, 2014 9:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Materialistic assholes are more-or-less equal regardless of race or gender...

I think real education should have a multicultural perspective, which can be expressed through visual/performing arts and music that raises consciousness of our soulful dimension.

While there are racial, gender and cultural differences, the life-force that animates all human (and other) life-forms in the evolutionary cycle s constitutionally equal in relation to the original energetic source of life.

Identifying oneself with the temporary material body or materially conditioned mind more than with the eternal life-force within makes us more aware of differences, whereas spiritual realization sparks consciousness of the essential equality of all living beings
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