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America's Wage Crisis
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KimchiNinja



Joined: 01 May 2012
Location: Gangnam

PostPosted: Sun Nov 10, 2013 8:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Deja wrote:
They can work 1 hour at your place for 100$. They can work 100 hours for 100$. Bottom line is they need $2000 a month net minimum, with 40 hour work weeks so as to be able to afford (money-wise) and have (time wise) some life (and sleep).


But wait a minute, why is it the employer's problem that they "need" $xxxx amount per month?

Did you guys see the people in this video? They made some very poor choices in life.
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Deja



Joined: 18 Mar 2011

PostPosted: Sun Nov 10, 2013 8:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

bucheon bum wrote:
Not to undermine your argument, since I sincerely believe minimum wage has to be raised here, but Germany has no minimum wage. Yep, that's right, it does not exist.

Not directly, however, the social security part pays if you earn below a certain threshold. Thus essentially making that the minimum monthly salary. Not a single citizen of Germany would work for anything less as a result.
It is quite similar in the other mentioned countries.
They seem to have good unions though Smile

Quote:
And $2K for a 3 bedroom place in the DC area sounds crazy cheap, especially if it is within the beltway and not in the hood.

Just adds to my argument - with such prices, what is the point of comparing $20K in the US with $20K in Korea? (that is why I mentioned it)
It sounds expensive to me - but solely because I have cheaper alternatives (of being able to live elsewhere - i.e. Korea).


Last edited by Deja on Sun Nov 10, 2013 8:15 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Deja



Joined: 18 Mar 2011

PostPosted: Sun Nov 10, 2013 8:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

KimchiNinja wrote:
But wait a minute, why is it the employer's problem that they "need" $xxxx amount per month?

It is his problem if he wants good workers, good business, and in the end run, customers who can afford his stuff.

How else would you suggest it be handled?
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KimchiNinja



Joined: 01 May 2012
Location: Gangnam

PostPosted: Sun Nov 10, 2013 8:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Deja wrote:
KimchiNinja wrote:
But wait a minute, why is it the employer's problem that they "need" $xxxx amount per month?

It is his problem if he wants good workers, good business, and in the end run, customers who can afford his stuff.

How else would you suggest it be handled?


Talking about the video (if anyone actually watched it).

Walmart-Man had no education, no profession, yet produced *three* babies!? So now he "needs" $xxxx per month to survive. Mmmk, but that's a hole he dug for himself...

Hedge-Fund Trader-Man. That is a job requiring market intuition, yet he clearly failed to read the market and change jobs before the collapse, or he didn't have the marketable skills to switch to a more reputable firm to surviv the crash. He was in a job he didn't belong in, and when times got tough, the market got rid of him. He says he was "making 10 times what he makes now", but he didn't save any of it?? Now he's got a family and "needs" $xxxx amount per month. He dug his own hole.

How I would have handled it -- not be dumb in the first place. Wink
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Kuros



Joined: 27 Apr 2004

PostPosted: Sun Nov 10, 2013 8:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

KimchiNinja wrote:
Deja wrote:
KimchiNinja wrote:
But wait a minute, why is it the employer's problem that they "need" $xxxx amount per month?

It is his problem if he wants good workers, good business, and in the end run, customers who can afford his stuff.

How else would you suggest it be handled?


Talking about the video (if anyone actually watched it).

Walmart-Man had no education, no profession, yet produced *three* babies!? So now he "needs" $xxxx per month to survive. Mmmk, but that's a hole he dug for himself...

Hedge-Fund Trader-Man. That is a job requiring market intuition, yet he clearly failed to read the market and change jobs before the collapse, or he didn't have the marketable skills to switch to a more reputable firm to surviv the crash. He was in a job he didn't belong in, and when times got tough, the market got rid of him. He says he was "making 10 times what he makes now", but he didn't save any of it?? Now he's got a family and "needs" $xxxx amount per month. He dug his own hole.

How I would have handled it -- not be dumb in the first place. Wink


Hey, what about this guy: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YwpnH_OTZio

Did he exercise good judgment?

(Kudos to Greenspan for the admission, though)

Why do you criticize the poor and not the leadership who destroyed this economy and failed to take the necessary remedial political and financial steps to make a responsible and sustainable recovery?
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KimchiNinja



Joined: 01 May 2012
Location: Gangnam

PostPosted: Sun Nov 10, 2013 9:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Deja wrote:


How else would you suggest it be handled?


I'm going to change my answer to population control.

If a token to have a baby costs $100K USD, then Walmart-Man couldn't have babies, thus would be able to support himself on minimum wage.
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bucheon bum



Joined: 16 Jan 2003
Location: DC area

PostPosted: Mon Nov 11, 2013 5:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

KimchiNinja wrote:
Deja wrote:


How else would you suggest it be handled?


I'm going to change my answer to population control.

If a token to have a baby costs $100K USD, then Walmart-Man couldn't have babies, thus would be able to support himself on minimum wage.


Supporting oneself on minimum wage in a major us city, especially in the northeast and west coast would be an enormous challenge even as a single person without any children.

It is a lot less costly having a higher minimum wage than providing assistance to people in that position through other means (such as housing subsidies, food stamps, etc). Why should I, Joe Taxpayer, have to pay for a dude's food stamps because his employer is too cheap to give him a respectable wage? Basically the taxpayer is subsidizing cheap labor.

And even if it were not a challenge nor cost to the taxpayer, it is in society's best interest for that man (and others) to be able to more easily raise a family.
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bucheon bum



Joined: 16 Jan 2003
Location: DC area

PostPosted: Mon Nov 11, 2013 5:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Deja wrote:
bucheon bum wrote:
Not to undermine your argument, since I sincerely believe minimum wage has to be raised here, but Germany has no minimum wage. Yep, that's right, it does not exist.

Not directly, however, the social security part pays if you earn below a certain threshold. Thus essentially making that the minimum monthly salary. Not a single citizen of Germany would work for anything less as a result.
It is quite similar in the other mentioned countries.
They seem to have good unions though Smile


Yeah, it appears that you are right. There is a minimum standard of living. Thanks for the info.
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KimchiNinja



Joined: 01 May 2012
Location: Gangnam

PostPosted: Mon Nov 11, 2013 12:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

bucheon bum wrote:

It is a lot less costly having a higher minimum wage than providing assistance to people in that position through other means (such as housing subsidies, food stamps, etc). Why should I, Joe Taxpayer, have to pay for a dude's food stamps because his employer is too cheap to give him a respectable wage? Basically the taxpayer is subsidizing cheap labor.


I'm sticking with population control for the win.

All these costs to society stem from having too many (uneducated) people from poor families, and just too many people in general. This problem is solved under a system like Singapore uses to control the number of automobiles.

Each family gets 1 token, good for one child. Tokens are traded at market price. If you are able to buy a second token at a market price of $100K, clearly you can afford to raise and educate that kid, so that child won't be a minimum wage drain on society in the first place. To the people who are poor, you can sell your token, get money, go to college, make something of yourself, and ONCE you have money; buy a token to have a child.

In other words it makes poor people more wealthy, puts children in the hands of those who can afford to raise them well, applies pressure for smart people to be the ones reproducing (Darwin), and brings down the total population making for a higher quality of life for everyone.

Light bulb. Idea
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Deja



Joined: 18 Mar 2011

PostPosted: Mon Nov 11, 2013 12:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

[quote="KimchiNinja"]
Deja wrote:
Walmart-Man had no education, no profession, yet produced *three* babies!? So now he "needs" $xxxx per month to survive. Mmmk, but that's a hole he dug for himself...

You see, in the countries I keep mentioning, he would get free condoms, and would not produce babies.

Quote:
Hedge-Fund Trader-Man. That is a job requiring market intuition, yet he clearly failed to read the market and change jobs before the collapse, or he didn't have the marketable skills to switch to a more reputable firm to surviv the crash. He was in a job he didn't belong in, and when times got tough, the market got rid of him. He says he was "making 10 times what he makes now", but he didn't save any of it?? Now he's got a family and "needs" $xxxx amount per month. He dug his own hole.

Errr, actually I got nothing on these cases Sad He should get $xxx he needs to have a life that wouldn't make him a bigger burden than he is, but I got no idea how to make people save for later.
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Deja



Joined: 18 Mar 2011

PostPosted: Mon Nov 11, 2013 12:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Population control works for future geneartions - we need a solution right now. Your solution will not be there for another 50-100 years, if it works even.

BTW, population control makes another problem in the current society, and will make even more problems in 50-100 years if it happens: a LOT more pensioners than youngsters to support them.
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Jyang486



Joined: 25 Nov 2011

PostPosted: Mon Nov 11, 2013 1:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

i get what you're all saying, but certain individuals should not be living in this area if they can't afford to. it shouldn't come out of the employers pockets to make it so they can. just because you want to live here doesn't mean you should, if you can't afford to. there's plenty of families who make it work, those working for the current minimum wage, and don't live off of food stamps and such. the city that i work in has one of the biggest immigrant populations in the dc metropolitan area. it's not a cheap area, but they make it work.

@ fox: those that have been in the workforce longer, i.e. worked as a cashier for a restaurant for years, would expect to be paid more than a high school student who is working for the first time. a high school student working for the first time would expect to be paid the minimum, and since the job itself doesn't require experience and can be trained easily, i don't believe we should pay more than the minimum wage to them.

we were the ones who put up the huge upfront investment to purchase the place of business, the machines, the equipment, the remodeling job, insurance, etc. and we pay out a large sum every month for the goods we sell, utilities, rent, marketing, etc. all we ask of the employees is to keep the place clean and run the cash register. why do you feel they deserve a bigger piece of the pie?
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No_hite_pls



Joined: 05 Mar 2007
Location: Don't hate me because I'm right

PostPosted: Mon Nov 11, 2013 3:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
why do you feel they deserve a bigger piece of the pie?


When the four family members that own Walmart make more than 150 million Americans combined then they (the employees of walmart) deserve a bigger piece of the pie. Nobody is saying that the owners of walmart should not be millionaires or even billionaires but they should not make more than 150 million Americans combined. If the company has more than 20 employees it should have to complie with the new higher minimum wage. Seriously, it's not that hard to understand.


Last edited by No_hite_pls on Mon Nov 11, 2013 4:33 pm; edited 1 time in total
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No_hite_pls



Joined: 05 Mar 2007
Location: Don't hate me because I'm right

PostPosted: Mon Nov 11, 2013 4:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

KimchiNinja wrote:
bucheon bum wrote:

It is a lot less costly having a higher minimum wage than providing assistance to people in that position through other means (such as housing subsidies, food stamps, etc). Why should I, Joe Taxpayer, have to pay for a dude's food stamps because his employer is too cheap to give him a respectable wage? Basically the taxpayer is subsidizing cheap labor.


I'm sticking with population control for the win.

All these costs to society stem from having too many (uneducated) people from poor families, and just too many people in general. This problem is solved under a system like Singapore uses to control the number of automobiles.

Each family gets 1 token, good for one child. Tokens are traded at market price. If you are able to buy a second token at a market price of $100K, clearly you can afford to raise and educate that kid, so that child won't be a minimum wage drain on society in the first place. To the people who are poor, you can sell your token, get money, go to college, make something of yourself, and ONCE you have money; buy a token to have a child.

In other words it makes poor people more wealthy, puts children in the hands of those who can afford to raise them well, applies pressure for smart people to be the ones reproducing (Darwin), and brings down the total population making for a higher quality of life for everyone.

Light bulb. Idea


Using your math Bill Gates should have 600,000 kids at his net worth of about 60 billion. Very Happy
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edwardcatflap



Joined: 22 Mar 2009

PostPosted: Mon Nov 11, 2013 4:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Each family gets 1 token, good for one child


What's a 'family' these days though? In the UK, a vast number, if not the majority of babies born into poverty are conceived out of wedlock after a relationship lasting a few months or even weeks. Then the father disappears to start the whole process again with someone else. How are you going to stop these women having more than one baby, short of forced abortion or sterilization?
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