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A Doomed Future?
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Unposter



Joined: 04 Jun 2006

PostPosted: Thu Dec 26, 2013 8:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

World Traveler, you know my post history better than I do. Congratulations that makes you pretty sad. Anyway, despite your detective work you are still wrong. I have a lot more education for a heck of a lot longer than your guess. But, more to the point why are you dragging me into this little game of yours? I am not the person your overactive imagination imagines I am. OK? I dont know how many people work at universities with just a BA in Seoul. Personally Ive never met one. But if there are some I bet they are the exception not the rule. And it is irrelevent to whether conditions are worse unless you somehow think that makes things worse. Good luck to you but if you can handle some advice, spend less tme whining on Daves and spend more time enjoying life. If you really want to make the world a better place, an admirable thing, there are better issues.
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World Traveler



Joined: 29 May 2009

PostPosted: Fri Dec 27, 2013 5:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Unposter, you stated numerous times the reason you come to Dave's is to be entertained by people fighting, bickering, and insulting each other (a guilty pleasure like watching Jerry Springer). But I guess it's not too fun when it happens to you, eh?

I'm not even insulting you though, nor was that my intention. I was simply using you as an example of someone who got a job in a Seoul uni with just a BA. (OK, so you live in Seoul, but the uni is in the Seoul suburbs. That's a pretty inconsequential detail- definitely not "wash out your mouth with soap" worthy.)

When you got your first uni job, did you have just a BA? I think the answer to that is yes, and I also think you don't want to answer that question for some reason.

Unposter wrote:
I dont know how many people work at universities with just a BA in Seoul. Personally Ive never met one. But if there are some I bet they are the exception not the rule.

If there are some? Good God! You've never met a "professor" at a university in Seoul who had just a BA? There are ton. At the best places to work too like Hongik and Chung-Ang University. Do new hires have to have a masters? Absolutely. Are those already there pressured to get a masters (from an online program that will accept and pass pretty much anyone as long as they pay the tuition money)? Maybe. Nevertheless, there are boatloads of BAs working in unis all across Korea. What those people have in common is they got in years ago back when hiring standards where much, much lower. The majority of MAs held by the "profs" are of the online variety, too, meaning they got the uni job with just a BA, and then used their free time to get an MA for the pay raise. That or they worked in a public school back when public schools were plum jobs for waegs. Based on this...
Unposter wrote:
For what it is worth, when I first arrived in Korea, the exchange rate was in the low 900s for a U.S. dollar. I saw it climb to near 2000 and then settle in the 1600 range. Then 1400...1200 and it actually made it all the way to the upper 900s again!!!

…you've been in Korea since 1996. In that time you've never met a BA holder working in a Seoul uni? (Or did you mean in 2013 they've all been cleared out or have finished their online MAs?) Almost every lifer I know did not have an MA when they were hired at a uni. Some got an MA since then. A LOT still have just an unrelated BA. It is a huge percentage.

Unposter wrote:
you are still wrong. I have a lot more education for a heck of a lot longer than your guess.

Me: "I could have sworn you said you had a BA in history. Oh, I guess you must have done an online MA recently."
Unposter: "You are still wrong. I have a lot more education for a heck of a lot longer than your guess."

So you have a lot more education than an MA (a PhD?) for a heck of a lot longer than recently?

Tell me what it is and when you got it and I will drop this discussion. (I am curious to find out now. If I was wrong I will admit that and accept it. And by the way, there is no need to get angry. We are just pixels on a screen. I wasn't imagining anything about you personally or attacking you, just making an overall point.)

I'm With You wrote:
Highwayman wrote:
I'm With You wrote:
whiteshoes wrote:
For whatever it's worth to you, I was rejected by Ewha, Hanyang, and Kookmin. I've got an MATESOL 2 years at a uni and a few conference presentations.

I recall a time, not all that long ago, either, where you would be in the top five to ten percent of teachers with those kinds of qualifications - master's, conference presentations.

Now those even with master's degrees aren't even guaranteed an interview, never mind a job, at universities.

Times have certainly changed.

Indeed. And not for the better, anywhere for people in the EFL industry it seems.

Yeah, I agree. I'm hearing similar stories in other places, also.

I've had a couple of friends in Korea with several years university teaching experience each look into teaching at the university level in Taiwan. Both have said that there's no opportunity there at the moment and schools either aren't hiring or it's all done by word of mouth.

Japanese universities? Forget about it. 98% of the university TEFL teachers in Korea wouldn't even make it to an interview in Japan. Japanese universities are notoriously demanding of gaijin applicants. Many Japanese universities now want gaijin applicants to have at least 2-kyu or 1-kyu Japanese language proficiency, 3 refereed publications minimum, and a Ph.D degree in a relevant field.
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Unposter



Joined: 04 Jun 2006

PostPosted: Sat Dec 28, 2013 1:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Man, world traveler, you really are something, arent you? Anyway, you enjoy the "detective" work so much, why dont you figure it from my post history. Though, you have been wrong so much so far that I dont blame you for just asking me.

And, seriously, I have never met anyone working at a uni in Seoul with just a BA since Ive arrived.

I am surprised you didnt know that since you assume far too much about me.

Enjoy the detective work. Maybe you will finally learn someyhing valuable.
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Unposter



Joined: 04 Jun 2006

PostPosted: Sat Dec 28, 2013 1:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Oh and since you cannot find anything on my educational attainment other than what ive said in this thread, you might want to believe what im telling you.
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World Traveler



Joined: 29 May 2009

PostPosted: Sat Dec 28, 2013 2:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I asked because I was curious. You don't want to answer/won't give a straight answer (much like 12ax7/PatrickGHBusan). But whatever. My care-o-meter is at about zero. I didn't do detective work. I just happened to remember. You went to Kent State (which is good university) so you're a smart person I would assume. If I were to guess now, I'd say maybe you came to Korea with a masters (unrelated to education, but still a masters). A masters in any subject area was enough to get into a uni for sure in the past, even from overseas. Why? Because unis got extra funding for teachers with a masters (and there weren't many people in Korea with masters degrees). I'm not even commenting on you right now, just the general state of the market. Many posters on this board working in a university in Seoul for the majority of their time working in a Seoul university had only a BA. Swampfox for example. He has an MA now, but for most of his time in Korea (and most of his time working in a university in Seoul) he did not.
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Thomas G



Joined: 10 Dec 2013
Location: Incheon

PostPosted: Sat Dec 28, 2013 2:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

earthquakez wrote:
Let's face it, Korea is now only a half decent gig for entry level younger people who don't have teaching qualifications from home or for those who did manage to get a foothold in universities and colleges when the supply of waygugs was much lower - before 2005 I'd say.


The delusions of those who hang around in Korea because they are too insecure to move on are sad.



I agree. Unless you started a family here or have a stable career at a company or university, there is no point of sticking around forever.

Most are here because they couldn't find anything better back home and or are burdened with crippling student loan debt. Sure it is a decent gig for fresh graduates but there is no incentive of doing it long term.

No real career progression, both here and back home.
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World Traveler



Joined: 29 May 2009

PostPosted: Sat Dec 28, 2013 3:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Global Economic Outlook Is Stronger in 2014
Quote:
As the year ends, more people are finding work in the United States, the economy is growing at the fastest pace in two years and Congress has a new budget that effectively removes the threat of another costly government shutdown.
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World Traveler



Joined: 29 May 2009

PostPosted: Sat Dec 28, 2013 4:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Unposter wrote:
Oh and since you cannot find anything on my educational attainment other than what ive said in this thread, you might want to believe what im telling you.

Believe what? You didn't tell me anything besides that I'm wrong.

You said you work in a university and you said you live in Seoul. I assumed you work in a uni in Seoul. (A reasonable assumption and one that most people would make.)

You reacted angrily and defensively in a thread where people said a masters in TESOL/linguistics/education should be required to teach in a university. Based on that (and you asserting the importance of past uni teaching experience) I assumed you had just an unrelated BA like so many other lifers working in unis. (A reasonable assumption and one that most people would make.) Wrong assumption, apparently. It appears you have an unrelated masters which got you into teaching conversational English. (That's what you were being defensive about, that your masters is unrelated.)

OK, I assumed incorrectly (about those two things).

Speaking on the general market, it was much easier to get into unis in the past. Much easier. An unrelated MA guaranteed an in. Same deal with Taiwan. That's all I was saying. Things have changed.
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hubbahubba



Joined: 31 May 2008

PostPosted: Mon Dec 30, 2013 6:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

We're dooomed---dooomed i tell you. Now let me see if i can dig up so more old threads to prove my point--lol
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John Stamos jr.



Joined: 07 Oct 2012
Location: Namsan

PostPosted: Mon Dec 30, 2013 7:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

No semi young white male with no arrest record and a college degree is 'doomed'. You're in the 1%. But yeah, there are all of these Chinese and Indian people creeping in. Specialize. Personal drone apps.
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I'm With You



Joined: 01 Sep 2011

PostPosted: Mon Dec 30, 2013 8:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

It's still a good experience for 1 - 3 years for the 20-dumbthings that want to come over for a good time, but not a long time.

However I've seen enough over the years to warn those arriving that's it's easy to wake up 5-10 years later in the same teaching boat as you are in now. Do you really want to find yourself in a similar situation five years down the road?

Because finding a teaching job, losing a teaching job, keeping a teaching job, quitting a teaching job is a never ending grind.

And even with those with master's and doctorate degrees, as has been mentioned already in this thread, you are likely going to be faced with a musical chairs situation of having to change jobs every 2 - 3 years. Non-renewable contracts, even for university TEFL teachers is the norm now.

But let's dispense with all the negativity, the newbies and wannabes back in Canada don't want to hear that!

Chad from Saskatchwan, this is what you have to look forward to during your 1 - 3 years as a TEFL monkey in Korea:

- 10 hour - 20 hour work week

- day drinking

- dating 3rd and 4th year female students (for university Professors)

- High speed Internet, great for downloading porn

- cheap smokes

- r&r in Angeles, Bangkok, Pattaya or Phuket.


But who in their right mind would want to make a career of that?
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earthquakez



Joined: 10 Nov 2010

PostPosted: Tue Dec 31, 2013 2:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm With You wrote:
It's still a good experience for 1 - 3 years for the 20-dumbthings that want to come over for a good time, but not a long time.

However I've seen enough over the years to warn those arriving that's it's easy to wake up 5-10 years later in the same teaching boat as you are in now. Do you really want to find yourself in a similar situation five years down the road?

Because finding a teaching job, losing a teaching job, keeping a teaching job, quitting a teaching job is a never ending grind.

And even with those with master's and doctorate degrees, as has been mentioned already in this thread, you are likely going to be faced with a musical chairs situation of having to change jobs every 2 - 3 years. Non-renewable contracts, even for university TEFL teachers is the norm now.

But let's dispense with all the negativity, the newbies and wannabes back in Canada don't want to hear that!

Chad from Saskatchwan, this is what you have to look forward to during your 1 - 3 years as a TEFL monkey in Korea:

- 10 hour - 20 hour work week

- day drinking

- dating 3rd and 4th year female students (for university Professors)

- High speed Internet, great for downloading porn

- cheap smokes

- r&r in Angeles, Bangkok, Pattaya or Phuket.


But who in their right mind would want to make a career of that?


Apart from the cheap smokes and high speed Internet, the rest is not true for the great majority of native English teachers in Korea. And it hasn't been so for more than 4 yrs now and it wasn't even like that to begin with for many English teachers.

I was a NET in a high school during the better period for those who worked in the school system and the workload was still higher than 20 hrs per week. It was actually around 35 or more when you factor in planning lessons for all the different classes - including the usual ones where all the levels were mixed.

Try planning for 32 to 40 Korean students of mixed levels, 15 to 18 classes of them per week, and you'll find out just how hard the majority of NETs were working since the mid 2000s. And those classes are just the usual ones, not the extra ones. Not to mention other tasks such as making things for classes and not referring to lesson plans here, doing things with the English teacher Koreans etc etc.

In 2009 the conditions were downgraded by enforcing desk warming during vacation. I left my school before all that rubbish but many friends and acquaintances could not plan any of their vacations re travelling outside of Korea as they had to (as I did before then) formally ask permission of the Principal and Vice Principal to take their vacation. Usually teachers could not plan their travel as the school usually did not commit to telling them when they were free until quite late.

Then of course around 2009 came the petty nonsense about coming into school during vacation when the Korean staff were absent. In many cases teachers were told they could not travel although they had already planned their vacations and in some cases bought their tickets. This affected middle school and high school NETs everywhere. I knew a woman down in Jeollanam Do who had been given permission to go back to her home country for winter vacation and she had informed the school in writing, done all the right things etc.

She was then told that she had to attend a seminar put on by Jeollanam Education Office in January - when she had been given permission by her school to go home. She could not get a refund for her economy ticket so she would have lost an airfare and she could not change her vacation to later as her school said she would have to deskwarm after the seminar.

Power to her, she very nicely said she was taking the vacation she had been promised and which was actually written in her contract as all of the designated winter vacation for about a month or so. Her English subject co ordinator became very ugly but she stood her ground and she went back home as had been agreed before and which was clearly written in her contract.

She did not get renewed but she did not want to be renewed. The karma was complete when the school employed a female clown as the next 'teacher' who knew zero about anything to do with teaching.

As for hagwon teachers, again for quite some time they have worked at least more than 30 hours owing to office hours, lesson planning etc as well as usual teaching.

Hagwons have never been known for real vacations and those in adult hagwons especially have always had a raw deal - 10 days vacation 'including national holidays' has always been standard for adult teaching in private language institutes. Try planning for Lose Angeles or anywhere else with that kind of schedule.

I was lucky in my hagwon jobs, a bit more vacation, but my jobs were the exception rather than the rule.
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TheMeerkatLover



Joined: 26 Mar 2009

PostPosted: Tue Dec 31, 2013 10:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'd suspect the few posters who opted to attack each other instead of actually looking at their circumstances are doomed.

If you are unable to keep a thread on track, how do you expect to navigate reality effectively?
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I'm With You



Joined: 01 Sep 2011

PostPosted: Tue Dec 31, 2013 1:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Okay, but I'm among dozens of tenured or permanent hires at universities that can do this. I agree, it's not the norm.

However, if you jumped in to the TEFL game at the right time, the world really is your oyster. I work with millionaires. People who have been here for 20 years, invested and still have lead a decadent lifestyle.

Is it still possible?
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misher



Joined: 14 Oct 2008

PostPosted: Tue Dec 31, 2013 3:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Okay, but I'm among dozens of tenured or permanent hires at universities that can do this. I agree, it's not the norm.

However, if you jumped in to the TEFL game at the right time, the world really is your oyster. I work with millionaires. People who have been here for 20 years, invested and still have lead a decadent lifestyle.

Is it still possible?


When I started out in Canada I met plenty like this. Many made a killing in the middle east and Japan in the 1980s, bought condos while real estate was cheap and also got into uni EAP programs and hagwons in downtown vancouver while they offered stable permanent positions. Now these types are in their late forties and 50s, making 65k a year with 6-8 weeks paid vacation all for 20 contact hours a week. They also can't be fired because their jobs are unionized. Does this exist for a 26 year old with a freshly minted MA TESOL? Nope. Contracts with limited benefits and much lower pay. The offers I got from a few Canadian colleges and 2 unis in Vancouver so much of a joke tat I would have to get a second teaching job. In the states it's even worse. You can argue that every industry is like this but that's absolute BS. I have plenty of friends in their early 30s in the extractive industries, healthcare, PS education, trades, financial services, government etc that are doing just fine making 75k (lower mid of their salary grids) a year and up working reasonable hours. Some of them did the EFL thing too but were wise enough to get the hell out of it after a few years.
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