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Dennis Rodman is back in North Korea
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Fox



Joined: 04 Mar 2009

PostPosted: Thu Jan 09, 2014 8:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

jvalmer wrote:
I believe the two are genuinely friends, and friends generally don't go dictating how you run your own home.


When your friend doesn't vacuum quite as much as he perhaps should, then you don't tell your friend how to run his home. When your friend is locking people up and torturing them because he doesn't like things they said and developing nuclear weapons while threatening to launch them at his next-door neighbor, perhaps the same common sense logic doesn't apply?
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Smithington



Joined: 14 Dec 2011

PostPosted: Thu Jan 09, 2014 10:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Fox wrote:
jvalmer wrote:
I believe the two are genuinely friends, and friends generally don't go dictating how you run your own home.


When your friend doesn't vacuum quite as much as he perhaps should, then you don't tell your friend how to run his home. When your friend is locking people up and torturing them because he doesn't like things they said and developing nuclear weapons while threatening to launch them at his next-door neighbor, perhaps the same common sense logic doesn't apply?


Exactly.
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Leon



Joined: 31 May 2010

PostPosted: Fri Jan 10, 2014 5:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

For me his comments on Kenneth Bae was the biggest line crossing moment, but at least he apologized.

There is now this, I would very much like to see legal repercussions over this.

"Rodman is, according to diplomatic sources, bringing several hundred dollars’ worth of Irish Jameson whiskey. This should come as no great surprise since the former backer of Rodman’s Pyongyang adventure, Irish bookmaker Paddy Power, had, according to Rodman, pledged $3.5 million to the project before recently removing its name as an event sponsor due to mounting international criticism. Paddy Power is, however, still reportedly financing the luxury trip to famished North Korea. The involvement of this Irish firm has a special irony, given the occurrence of one of the greatest famines in world history in Ireland in the 19th century.

Other alleged birthday presents for the Young General include European crystal, an Italian suit for him, and Italian clothing, a fur coat, and an English Mulberry handbag for her (Kim’s wife, Ri Sol-ju). The total cost of these birthday gifts is reportedly well over $10,000. Perhaps an official investigation should follow of those who may have violated United Nations sanctions by organizing or funding this event?"

http://www.weeklystandard.com/blogs/rodman-brings-bread-and-circuses-pyongyang_773938.html

As someone who believes that cutting off access to the North's luxury goods is key to bringing the regime down, (no seriously it is how they buy support with the top classes) I believe this would be an appropriate case with which to make a strong example of.
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Steelrails



Joined: 12 Mar 2009
Location: Earth, Solar System

PostPosted: Fri Jan 10, 2014 4:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
You know who else spent a lot of time in Europe before coming to power, Assad, just saying. His dad loved sports and western movies, the kid loves sports and Disney, so what.


Well Assad was 2nd in line and was expected to probably be Health Minister, run some sports teams, and otherwise be "the face". When he was thrust into the chair, he was thrown into a role he hadn't been groomed for. Did he want things to go the way they have? I don't think so. But he also had to constantly worry that he might get bumped off in a coup and that if anyone other than an Alawite, Druze or Christian took over, his people would probably be massacred ala Rwanda.

Quote:
and building massive tourism infrastructure like ski resorts while your people starve is hard to spin into positive plans


Actually it makes sense. Throwing bags of rice at starving people does little to solve the structural problems which are causing their starvation in the first place, such as lack of foreign revenue, negative international perception resulting in sanctions, and lack of employment. Tourism can work on all of those.

==========================================

Quote:
Korea gave us Psy, we reciprocated with Rodman.


Geography fail.

Quote:
Yet he talks like he's a great statesman who will eventually "open the country up to the world." Yeah, that's it. Mandela, Gorbachev and Rodman. Very Happy

I pity the poor Korean translator who has to grasp what Rodman is saying. Christ, I can barely understand his English. Good luck to Mr. Choi from East Pyeongyang.

The man be a fool.


Keenest of assessments.

==========================================

Quote:
and developing nuclear weapons while threatening to launch them at his next-door neighbor, perhaps the same common sense logic doesn't apply?


Neighbor owns a gun? I'll keep my opinions to myself and leave him be. Neighbor owns an arsenal, a bunker, and has firing ports all along his house, while he brandishes weapons on his porch and occasionally fires shotgun blasts into the air or over people's houses? Yeah, kind of the neighborhood's business.
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Leon



Joined: 31 May 2010

PostPosted: Fri Jan 10, 2014 6:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Steelrails wrote:
Quote:
You know who else spent a lot of time in Europe before coming to power, Assad, just saying. His dad loved sports and western movies, the kid loves sports and Disney, so what.


Well Assad was 2nd in line and was expected to probably be Health Minister, run some sports teams, and otherwise be "the face". When he was thrust into the chair, he was thrown into a role he hadn't been groomed for. Did he want things to go the way they have? I don't think so. But he also had to constantly worry that he might get bumped off in a coup and that if anyone other than an Alawite, Druze or Christian took over, his people would probably be massacred ala Rwanda.

Quote:
and building massive tourism infrastructure like ski resorts while your people starve is hard to spin into positive plans


Actually it makes sense. Throwing bags of rice at starving people does little to solve the structural problems which are causing their starvation in the first place, such as lack of foreign revenue, negative international perception resulting in sanctions, and lack of employment. Tourism can work on all of those.


No it makes absolutely zero sense from the viewpoint of someone who is actually interested in development, it only makes sense if you are an immature, impulsive boy king. Also, to assume that starving people is a structural problem misunderstands the structure of North Korea, it is a function of control.

"The higher the standard of living climbs, the more ideologically lazy and the more careless the activity of the people is"

-Grandpa Kim Il Sung

Also, North Korea has a pretty poor record of tourism, our did you forget how poorly Mount Kumgang turned out, not to mention that 80 something year old American tourist. Likely the fat boy saw some ski resorts when he was in Europe and wanted some at home.
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Chaparrastique



Joined: 01 Jan 2014

PostPosted: Fri Jan 10, 2014 7:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Leon wrote:
This is also forgetting his not long ago provocations.


At that time he was really a hapless boy being taught the ropes. He didn't even appear to have any grip on power at all.

I have little doubt those provocations were engineered by the dinosaurs surrounding him.
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Leon



Joined: 31 May 2010

PostPosted: Fri Jan 10, 2014 7:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Chaparrastique wrote:
Leon wrote:
This is also forgetting his not long ago provocations.


At that time he was really a hapless boy being taught the ropes. He didn't even appear to have any grip on power at all.

I have little doubt those provocations were engineered by the dinosaurs surrounding him.


Again why? People also thought the Uncle was in power until right before he was killed. Kim Jong Il knew he was dying and prepared for Kim Jong UN to replace him. This is just wishful thinking on your part.
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jvalmer



Joined: 06 Jun 2003

PostPosted: Sun Jan 12, 2014 3:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Leon wrote:
As someone who believes that cutting off access to the North's luxury goods is key to bringing the regime down, (no seriously it is how they buy support with the top classes) I believe this would be an appropriate case with which to make a strong example of.

And isolating the regime as worked all so well... Isolating it would just create more usless bombings of remote islands. It's understandable that SK does, but don't go pressure the Chinese to.

Isolating regimes don't work well, unless you're willing to attack it, and even that hasn't worked out too well with western leaders who don't understand the historic political intricacies of the world outside of the west.
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Leon



Joined: 31 May 2010

PostPosted: Sun Jan 12, 2014 6:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

jvalmer wrote:
Leon wrote:
As someone who believes that cutting off access to the North's luxury goods is key to bringing the regime down, (no seriously it is how they buy support with the top classes) I believe this would be an appropriate case with which to make a strong example of.

And isolating the regime as worked all so well... Isolating it would just create more usless bombings of remote islands. It's understandable that SK does, but don't go pressure the Chinese to.

Isolating regimes don't work well, unless you're willing to attack it, and even that hasn't worked out too well with western leaders who don't understand the historic political intricacies of the world outside of the west.


This is another instance you just guessing what is the right thing to say. Isolating the regime was working well when we had the illicit activities initiative up and running. During that sanction regime, in 2006, Kim Jong Il even told Hu Jintao if it continued he feared his country would collapse. The sanctions didn't continue.

North Korea has chosen to isolate itself, it is not the other way around. It wants access to luxury goods, weapons, markets for weapons, markets for its illicit goods, and banks to use for money laundering. I fail to see what we would benefit from by giving it to them. I don't think you understand the political intricacies here, and in terms of intricacies the sanctions are not that complex to understand.

Read this to try and get a little caught up.

http://freekorea.us/plan/
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jvalmer



Joined: 06 Jun 2003

PostPosted: Sun Jan 12, 2014 7:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Leon wrote:
jvalmer wrote:
Leon wrote:
As someone who believes that cutting off access to the North's luxury goods is key to bringing the regime down, (no seriously it is how they buy support with the top classes) I believe this would be an appropriate case with which to make a strong example of.

And isolating the regime as worked all so well... Isolating it would just create more usless bombings of remote islands. It's understandable that SK does, but don't go pressure the Chinese to.

Isolating regimes don't work well, unless you're willing to attack it, and even that hasn't worked out too well with western leaders who don't understand the historic political intricacies of the world outside of the west.

This is another instance you just guessing what is the right thing to say. Isolating the regime was working well when we had the illicit activities initiative up and running. During that sanction regime, in 2006, Kim Jong Il even told Hu Jintao if it continued he feared his country would collapse. The sanctions didn't continue.

North Korea has chosen to isolate itself, it is not the other way around. It wants access to luxury goods, weapons, markets for weapons, markets for its illicit goods, and banks to use for money laundering. I fail to see what we would benefit from by giving it to them. I don't think you understand the political intricacies here, and in terms of intricacies the sanctions are not that complex to understand.

Read this to try and get a little caught up.
http://freekorea.us/plan/

How can you say sanctions were working well prior to 2006? That's almost a full-ten years under of the KDJ and Roh. There have always been border incidents since the Korea was divided. It also doesn't matter if the SK government is left, right-leaning.

People like Rodman going into NK is probably going to speed up a collapse/unification. I'm not advocating starting up full-trading with NK. But having people go in there without being punished is probably a better approach than isloating the country. The more exposure any NK citizen has to the outside, the better. Rodman constantly visiting NK is a good thing.
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Leon



Joined: 31 May 2010

PostPosted: Sun Jan 12, 2014 8:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

jvalmer wrote:
Leon wrote:
jvalmer wrote:
Leon wrote:
As someone who believes that cutting off access to the North's luxury goods is key to bringing the regime down, (no seriously it is how they buy support with the top classes) I believe this would be an appropriate case with which to make a strong example of.

And isolating the regime as worked all so well... Isolating it would just create more usless bombings of remote islands. It's understandable that SK does, but don't go pressure the Chinese to.

Isolating regimes don't work well, unless you're willing to attack it, and even that hasn't worked out too well with western leaders who don't understand the historic political intricacies of the world outside of the west.

This is another instance you just guessing what is the right thing to say. Isolating the regime was working well when we had the illicit activities initiative up and running. During that sanction regime, in 2006, Kim Jong Il even told Hu Jintao if it continued he feared his country would collapse. The sanctions didn't continue.

North Korea has chosen to isolate itself, it is not the other way around. It wants access to luxury goods, weapons, markets for weapons, markets for its illicit goods, and banks to use for money laundering. I fail to see what we would benefit from by giving it to them. I don't think you understand the political intricacies here, and in terms of intricacies the sanctions are not that complex to understand.

Read this to try and get a little caught up.
http://freekorea.us/plan/

How can you say sanctions were working well prior to 2006? That's almost a full-ten years under of the KDJ and Roh. There have always been border incidents since the Korea was divided. It also doesn't matter if the SK government is left, right-leaning.

People like Rodman going into NK is probably going to speed up a collapse/unification. I'm not advocating starting up full-trading with NK. But having people go in there without being punished is probably a better approach than isloating the country. The more exposure any NK citizen has to the outside, the better. Rodman constantly visiting NK is a good thing.


I can say they were working well, because Kim Jong Il said they were working well, because NK lost access to most foreign banks, because they lost access to Macao as a banking center, at least until the sanctions were ended. This wasn't done by the South Korean's it was done by America, and it only lasted for a few years until Kim Jong Il signed an agreement, which was then ignored by NK. Judging success by border incidents is irrelevant, those have happened and will continue to happen, you judge success by NK's ability to use world markets and ability to maintain its palace economy. How can you talk about intricacies when you don't even know about the Illicit activities initiative?

Dennis Rodman would not be punished for going to NK, but for bring in large amounts of banned luxury goods, which is illegal. Dennis Rodman visiting the country is good only because it makes Kim Jong Un look unfit to be a ruler. It isn't about isolating the country anyway, its about isolating the regime.
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TheUrbanMyth



Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Location: It's not a superiority complex when you really are superior

PostPosted: Sun Jan 12, 2014 4:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

jvalmer wrote:
The more exposure any NK citizen has to the outside, the better. Rodman constantly visiting NK is a good thing.



Rodman isn't going anywhere or seeing any NK citizen they don't want him to.
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jvalmer



Joined: 06 Jun 2003

PostPosted: Sun Jan 12, 2014 5:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Leon wrote:
because Kim Jong Il said they were working well

When did he say this? Or is this based on what some Chinese diplomat said?
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Leon



Joined: 31 May 2010

PostPosted: Sun Jan 12, 2014 5:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

You can find it in the link I previously posted, also, as a precondition to rejoining the 6 party talks Kim Jong Il made it a precondition that the money that was seized in the Banco Delta Asia case be returned and that the Illicit Activities Initiative was ended, which was the stupidest thing that could have been done, especially because we know how trustworthy NK is when it comes to honoring nuclear weapons agreements.
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jvalmer



Joined: 06 Jun 2003

PostPosted: Sun Jan 12, 2014 5:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Leon wrote:
You can find it in the link I previously posted, also, as a precondition to rejoining the 6 party talks Kim Jong Il made it a precondition that the money that was seized in the Banco Delta Asia case be returned and that the Illicit Activities Initiative was ended, which was the stupidest thing that could have been done, especially because we know how trustworthy NK is when it comes to honoring nuclear weapons agreements.

Maybe another source that more independent than the link you have, since its objectiveness is questionable.

Just love the double standard saying how NK has all this propaganda, yet you take your link as fact...
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