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World Traveler
Joined: 29 May 2009
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 Posted: Fri Feb 28, 2014 3:53 pm Post subject: |
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Can you blame them? It says in the Bible (an archaic book of myth, yet still believed by many today) the sun revolves around the earth.
It is interpreted from passages that are impossible in our universe.
The sun moves and not the earth:
Joshua 10:12-13
Then spoke Joshua to the Lord in the day when the Lord gave the Amorites over to the men of Israel; and he said in the sight of Israel, "Sun, stand thou still at Gibeon, and thou Moon in the valley of Aijalon." And the sun stood still, and the moon stayed, until the nation took vengeance on their enemies. Is this not written in the Book of Jashar? The sun stayed in the midst of heaven, and did not hasten to go down for about a whole day.
Ecclesiastes 1:5
The sun rises and the sun goes down, and hastens to the place where it rises.
The earth is stationary:
1 Chronicles 16:30
tremble before him, all earth; yea, the world stands firm, never to be moved.
Psalms 93:1
The Lord reigns; he is robbed in majesty; the lord is robbed, he is girded with strength. Yea, the world is established; it shall never be moved.
Psalms 96:10
Say among the nations, "The Lord reigns! Yea, the world is established, it shall never be moved; he will judge the peoples with equity."
It is planted in a foundation:
2 Samuel 22:16
Then the channels of the sea were seen, the foundations of the world were laid bare, at the rebuke of the Lord at the blast of the breath of his nostrils.
Psalms 18:15
Then the channels of the sea were seen, and the foundations of the world were laid bare, at thy rebuke, O Lord, at the blast of the breath of thy nostrils.
Psalms 102:25
Of old thou didst lay the foundation of the earth, and the heavens are the work of thy hands.
Proverbs 8:27-29
When he established the heavens, I was there, when he drew a circle on the face of the deep, when he made firm the skies above, when he established the fountains of the deep, when he assigned to the sea its limit, so that the waters might not transgress his command, when he marked out the foundations of the earth,
Isaiah 48:13
My hand laid out the foundation of the earth, and my right hand spread out the heavens; when I call to them, they stand forth together.
John 17:24
Father, I desire that they also, whom thou hast given me, may be with me where I am, to behold my glory which thou hast given me in thy love for me before the foundation of the world.
The Earth is flat (you cannot see the entire Earth because it is round):
Job 28:24
For he looks to the ends of the earth, and sees everything under the heavens.
Psalms 19:4-6
yet their voice goes out through all the earth, and their words to the end of the world. In them he has set a tent for the sun, which comes forth like a bridegroom leaving his chamber, and like a strong man runs his course with joy. Its rising is from the end of the heavens, and its circuit to the end of them; and there is nothing hid from its heat.
Daniel 4:10-11
The visions of my head as I lay in bed were these: I saw, and behold, a tree in the midst of the earth; and its height was great. The tree grew and became strong, and its top reached to heaven, and it was visible to the end of the whole earth.
Matthew 4:8
Again, the devil took him to a very high mountain, and showed him all the kingdoms of the world and the glory of them;
Isaiah 40:22
It is he who sits above the circle of the earth, and its inhabitants are like grasshoppers; who stretches out the heavens like a curtain, and spreads them like a tent to dwell in;
There are about another fifty passages relating to either the flat Earth, the water around the Earth (blue sky was mistaken for waters in the Hebrew), the stars are fixed lights, the Earth sits on pillars (which is why it shakes during earthquakes), there is an ocean under the Earth (there are archaeological finds of Jewish worship of the creatures of this underground sea), God keeps the upper water back by using windows, the Earth has ends and isn't round.
Gallileo was tried for proving about 50 bible verses false and being too noisy about it. |
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yodanole
Joined: 02 Mar 2003
Location: La Florida
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| Posted: Sun Mar 02, 2014 12:13 pm Post subject: |
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| We are not being given our just due. We don't know a heck of a lot more stuff than just that. |
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Smithington
Joined: 14 Dec 2011
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| Posted: Sun Mar 02, 2014 3:40 pm Post subject: |
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| yodanole wrote: |
| We are not being given our just due. We don't know a heck of a lot more stuff than just that. |
Are you insane? Really, we don't know much more than just that? Maybe you don't know much more than just that, but science has made astonishing discoveries about the world in the last few hundred years. Don't project your ignorance onto the rest of us thank you very much.
Oh, and work on your English writing skills. |
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Smithington
Joined: 14 Dec 2011
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| Posted: Sun Mar 02, 2014 3:50 pm Post subject: |
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| young_clinton wrote: |
| Scorpion wrote: |
More proof that democracy is a farce. If 25% of Americans (75 million people) don't know that the earth revolves around the sun then they shouldn't get the vote. Period. A certain degree of common knowledge, education and inquisitiveness about the world should be a prerequisite for having a say in the fate of nations.
Seventy five million people. Mind boggling. |
The Sun does rotate around the Earth. Although this has nothing to do with the perception of the sun rotating around the earth because of the Earths rotation. However if you look at the motion from the perspective of the Earth moving around the Sun it provides more clarity and is more organized. |
Say what, now? |
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yodanole
Joined: 02 Mar 2003
Location: La Florida
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| Posted: Thu Mar 06, 2014 10:24 am Post subject: |
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Do you ever read any surveys about the abilities of students in the US? Like the ability to find a particular place on a map? It would seem that projecting ignorance onto you is entirely unnecessary and would in fact be a redundancy.
| Smithington wrote: |
| yodanole wrote: |
| We are not being given our just due. We don't know a heck of a lot more stuff than just that. |
Are you insane? Really, we don't know much more than just that? Maybe you don't know much more than just that, but science has made astonishing discoveries about the world in the last few hundred years. Don't project your ignorance onto the rest of us thank you very much.
Oh, and work on your English writing skills. |
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shapeshifter
Joined: 29 Nov 2005
Location: Paris
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| Posted: Thu Mar 06, 2014 8:54 pm Post subject: |
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| nate1983 wrote: |
| geldedgoat wrote: |
| Scorpion wrote: |
| More proof that democracy is a farce. If 25% of Americans (75 million people) don't know that the earth revolves around the sun then they shouldn't get the vote. Period. |
I recently suggested here that voting rights should in part be based on IQ, and I was dismissed as a bigot and proponent of Jim Crow for it. I don't think specific knowledge of this nature should factor in, though, especially since the Earth doesn't technically revolve around the Sun. |
I think we all technically get what is meant by "the Earth revolving around the sun." But anyone with a rudimentary background in modern physics and understanding of celestial mechanics knows it's not so simple as this. Look for example at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michelson%E2%80%93Morley_experiment
Maybe some people didn't know the "correct" answer, but I bet a fair bit just felt like being "clever" or messing with the questionnaire. If someone deigned to ask me that question, no way would I proffer the "intended" response. |
You don't know what 'deigned' means, do you? |
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I'm With You
Joined: 01 Sep 2011
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| Posted: Sun Mar 09, 2014 6:56 am Post subject: |
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| The sun, moon and stars orbit the earth - I thought everyone knew that! |
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Julius
Joined: 27 Jul 2006
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| Posted: Sun Mar 09, 2014 8:25 am Post subject: |
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| World Traveler wrote: |
Joshua 10:12-13
Then spoke Joshua to the Lord in the day when the Lord gave the Amorites over to the men of Israel; and he said in the sight of Israel, "Sun, stand thou still at Gibeon, and thou Moon in the valley of Aijalon." And the sun stood still, and the moon stayed, until the nation took vengeance on their enemies. Is this not written in the Book of Jashar? The sun stayed in the midst of heaven, and did not hasten to go down for about a whole day. |
This verse refers to a single incident, not to how things usually are.
| Quote: |
Ecclesiastes 1:5
The sun rises and the sun goes down, and hastens to the place where it rises. |
This verse is told from the reality of how natural phenomena are perceived on earth.
People still refer to sundown and sunup, as if the sun were actually moving up and down. Does that mean everyone nowadays believes the sun is moving up and down?
| Quote: |
1 Chronicles 16:30
tremble before him, all earth; yea, the world stands firm, never to be moved. |
Like all the verses you quote, a person needs to read them in context. The passage in which the above verse occurs is clearly introduced as a psalm- that is to say it may use poetic language to convey spiritual truth, not necessarily literal truth. The same passage also mentions "the sea roars", the trees sing", "the fields rejoice".
Why don't people who claim the above verse endorses geocentrism also then claim the bible teaches that trees sing? Because everyone realizes it is obvious use of metaphor.
However when you quote mine and quote one verse in isolation, it is easy to make it appear to be saying something it does not intend to.
Also, one must be careful when interpreting words like "earth" and "world", as they are used to signify multiple things in the bible. Often it refers toto the people of the earth, not the physical planet itself. If I quote for you another part of the same verse you quoted: "tremble before him, all the earth"- do you still claim this refers to the physical planet, earth, or is it the people?
Anyway to tackle the question of this thread. Does the bible support geocentrism? No.
The history of this is that Ptolomaeus took a few verses out of context and used them to support his own theory of geocentrism. Because most people didn't have access to the bible, they took his word for it. When galileo came along it caused some people to think the bible is wrong...because they had a pre-existing false impression of what it actually says.
The bible is ambiguous on the matter. It does not say either way. It is neither heliocentric nor geocentric.
All movement is relative. Scientifically speaking I am entirely within my rights to claim that the entire universe orbits my little finger.
Mathematically speaking, the finite universe must have a centre of mass somewhere. A balancing point around which all else moves. That centre could quite possibly be the earth, and we would never know or be able to detect it.
Heliocentrism is simply the popular modern paradigm, for a number of historical reasons. But in reality, if we are totally honest...we can't be sure. |
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Smithington
Joined: 14 Dec 2011
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| Posted: Sun Mar 09, 2014 5:37 pm Post subject: |
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| Julius wrote: |
| Anyway to tackle the question of this thread. Does the bible support geocentrism? No. |
Yes, it does. It emphatically states, in numerous passages, the belief that the sun revolves around the earth. Yes, there is the use of metaphor in the bible. It is, after all, a collection of stories written by dozens of individuals over a period of 1600 years. Some is mythology, some is poetry, some is spirituality, some is politics, some is law, and some is an attempt at 'history'. Do not confuse the genres. When someone wrote that "the fields sing" he was obviously using a metaphor, but to think that every scientific error in the bible can be explained away as a metaphor is apologetic nonsense. The understanding of the biblical authors must be placed in the context of the ancient Near East in the iron age. It was universally accepted that the sun revolved around the earth. All the civilizations around Israel (Sumeria, Babylon, Assyria, Egypt, etc.) believed that. The Hebrews did as well. There are numerous references to this throughout the bible. To think that they can be "explained away" is wishful thinking. |
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wishfullthinkng
Joined: 05 Mar 2010
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Scorpion
Joined: 15 Apr 2012
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| Posted: Sun Mar 09, 2014 8:23 pm Post subject: |
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| Julius wrote: |
| Anyway to tackle the question of this thread. Does the bible support geocentrism? No. The history of this is that Ptolomaeus took a few verses out of context and used them to support his own theory of geocentrism. Because most people didn't have access to the bible, they took his word for it. When galileo came along it caused some people to think the bible is wrong...because they had a pre-existing false impression of what it actually says. The bible is ambiguous on the matter. It does not say either way. It is neither heliocentric nor geocentric....Heliocentrism is simply the popular modern paradigm, for a number of historical reasons. But in reality, if we are totally honest...we can't be sure. |
What ya smokin' there, bro? You obviously had the brains to get a university degree. Now you need to use those same brains when looking at the bible. If you think people in the bronze age had a scientific understanding of the world you couldn't be further from the truth. This is not to blame them; it was the bronze age, after all. But they did believe the earth was flat and stationary, and that the sun moved around the earth. Nowhere in the bible is there any indication that the authors (let alone Yahweh, himself) believed the earth revolved around the sun.
That the earth was stationary and set at the center of the universe was beyond dispute. As someone already noted, the other major civilizations surrounding Israel held to a geocentric understanding of the world. Israel was an insignificant backwater, and its people got most of their beliefs about the world from their larger, more accomplished neighbors. Think of modern Korea and how profoundly it has been influenced by the United States. All of the information and knowledge transfer has been one way. The same was true of ancient Israel. They shared the same understanding of the cosmos as the Persians and Babylonians because they got it from them. If they had a different understanding from their pagan enemies they would have said so. They would have used it to emphasize the foolishness of the pagan gods, and how only Yahweh understands the world because he created it. But there is not a passage anywhere in the bible that suggests the authors (any of them) had even an inkling that the earth actually revolved around the sun. And that's because they didn't. To suggest that the bible is neutral on the subject, or ambiguous, is just not true. Its authors believed in a young, flat, stationary earth. No honest reading of the bible can lead to any other conclusion. |
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Julius
Joined: 27 Jul 2006
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| Posted: Sun Mar 09, 2014 9:59 pm Post subject: |
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| Smithington wrote: |
| Yes, it does. It emphatically states, in numerous passages, the belief that the sun revolves around the earth. |
No it doesn't.
Show me the passage you are referring to.
| Scorpion wrote: |
| What ya smokin' there, bro? You obviously had the brains to get a university degree. Now you need to use those same brains |
If you approach me with some basic respect, I might decide you are worthy of my time. |
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son of coco
Joined: 14 Mar 2008
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| Posted: Thu Mar 13, 2014 6:16 pm Post subject: |
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| Deja wrote: |
Evolution is just a theory. It is not proven beyond doubt. It is just a theory that makes a lot more sense than anything else does in explaining how humans came to be.
The big bang is alos just a theory. And a sitcom  It is far from proven, or provable even.
The Earth does not orbit the Sun, nor does the Sun orbit the Earth. You have to decide what the point of reference is, and only then can you say whether either of those is true. That's what "Everything is relative" means.
Again, the "Earth orbits the Sun" allows us to explain a lot of things, and make mathematical/physical models. But neither of the above is true/untrue by itself.
In either case, neither of those things can make a single difference with regards to a living standard for the current generation or several generations to come  |
'Theory' as in 'scientific theory' and 'theory' as in 'I have a theory' are two completely different things. The first holds itself to higher standards of proof than the second. And the misunderstanding of 'theory' in the scientific context gives people who don't believe in evolution the idea that they have some sort of foothold to challenge its existence, however flimsy that foothold might be. |
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PigeonFart
Joined: 27 Apr 2006
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| Posted: Thu Mar 13, 2014 9:03 pm Post subject: |
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[quote="Scorpion"][quote="Deja"]Evolution is just a theory. It is not proven beyond doubt. It is just a theory that makes a lot more sense than anything else does in explaining how humans came to be.[/quote]
http://www.notjustatheory.com/[/quote]
Never saw that website before. A nice little gem. Thanks. |
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drcrazy
Joined: 19 Feb 2003
Location: Pusan. Yes, that's right. Pusan NOT Busan. I ain't never been to no place called Busan
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| Posted: Fri Mar 14, 2014 12:13 am Post subject: |
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| andrewchon wrote: |
Don't the pollsters know that people are sick and tired of filling out surveys and give out stupid answers just to annoy the boffins?  |
I was onced asked to fill out a survey. There was only one question:
"Do surveys exist?" Of course I said NO. |
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