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Titus
Joined: 19 May 2012
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 Posted: Mon Jun 02, 2014 7:02 pm Post subject: |
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I'm familiar with Pushilin, though I don't have time now to watch the interview.
As I understand, and again I've not seen the video, his position is that some men have crossed into Ukraine b/c they share a hostility to the Junta/NATO/USA/Nazi's/Ukrainians/etc. It is not stated that they are either Chechen or Russian military, or that the men are in any way associated with the Chechen or Russian military. Pushilin is clearly incentivized to exaggerate his relations with the RUssian state as well.
On both sides there are foreigners fighting (Right Sector had volunteers from Scandinavia at the onset, though I understand that this has evaporated post-Odessa).
The question is if the Russian state is engaging in a proxy war in any way. I don't believe they are (for the reasons listed in the article I posted above), I've seen no evidence that they are and it simply doesn't make strategic sense at this time. If I see evidence evidence contrary to this I'll change my position.
The Russians, if dissatisfied by the American/NATO/EU/Junta behavior at the UN tonight and tomorrow, may decide to enforce a no-fly zone. That would change everything. |
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Leon
Joined: 31 May 2010
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| Posted: Mon Jun 02, 2014 7:10 pm Post subject: |
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| Kuros wrote: |
| Titus wrote: |
Russians will be blanketed with the images and videos of the civilian casualties. Americans/British etc will probably not see them. This is a major reason why the two groups seem to have entirely different understandings of what is going on over there. |
Based on past experience regarding the United States media, we should all be open to the possibility that what Titus has described may be true. |
Based on what we know of the Russian media, the opposite is as likely to be true, or more so. Is there any non-Russian sources making the cluster bomb claim? I tried to find it, but couldn't. I think Titus' comment comparing what happened in Iraq is probably apt. Those Russian viewers who are outraged by this should be forced to watch videos of Grozny.
I wonder if all of this would have happened if Russia had acted to discourage the separatism from the beginning. If anything, all things considered things haven't gone to hell in Ukraine as much as I expected them to, for horrible neo-nazi's Kiev has acted with restraint compared to many other countries that have been in similar situations. For all the talk about American involvement, Obama has no appetite for War and would probably love to be able to keep a lid on this as much as possible. |
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Titus
Joined: 19 May 2012
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| Posted: Mon Jun 02, 2014 7:21 pm Post subject: |
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| I wonder if all of this would have happened if Russia had acted to discourage the separatism from the beginning. |
It was the United States, though her alphabet soup of NGO's who started this whole process - not to defend democracy - but to defend the monopoly position of the primarily (all, less 1 Tartar) Jewish oligarchy in Ukraine.
Nuland wanted Yats, and got him. Yats turned around and put the oligarchs in control of the provinces. Americans look at this and say "god damn Russians and their meddling". |
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Leon
Joined: 31 May 2010
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| Posted: Mon Jun 02, 2014 7:23 pm Post subject: |
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| Titus wrote: |
The question is if the Russian state is engaging in a proxy war in any way. I don't believe they are (for the reasons listed in the article I posted above), I've seen no evidence that they are and it simply doesn't make strategic sense at this time. If I see evidence evidence contrary to this I'll change my position.
The Russians, if dissatisfied by the American/NATO/EU/Junta behavior at the UN tonight and tomorrow, may decide to enforce a no-fly zone. That would change everything. |
"(Reuters) - Russia, a veto-wielding member of the U.N. Security Council, will not permit no-fly zones to be imposed over Syria, Foreign Ministry spokesman Alexander Lukashevich said on Monday.
"I think we fundamentally will not allow this scenario," Lukashevich told a news briefing, adding that calls for a no-fly zone showed disrespect for international law.
Lukashevich spoke before planned talks between President Vladimir Putin and U.S. President Barack Obama on the sidelines of a G8 summit in Northern Ireland which were expected to focus on the conflict in Syria that has killed at least 93,000 people.
Russia and the United States are trying to bring representatives of Syrian President Bashar al-Assad and his foes to the negotiating table, but Moscow has criticized U.S. plans to arm rebel forces and to consider imposing a no-fly zone.
"All these maneuvers about no-fly zones and humanitarian corridors are a direct consequence of a lack of respect for international law," Lukashevich said."
http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/06/17/us-syria-crisis-russia-idUSBRE95G0CA20130617
Incidentally, I believe you may be right about Russia not being involved with the separatists. I'm sure there are some Russian intelligence agents somewhere in the mix, but none of this really benefits them, and might end up creating another failed state on their border. |
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Leon
Joined: 31 May 2010
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| Posted: Mon Jun 02, 2014 7:33 pm Post subject: |
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| Titus wrote: |
| Quote: |
| I wonder if all of this would have happened if Russia had acted to discourage the separatism from the beginning. |
It was the United States, though her alphabet soup of NGO's who started this whole process - not to defend democracy - but to defend the monopoly position of the primarily (all, less 1 Tartar) Jewish oligarchy in Ukraine.
Nuland wanted Yats, and got him. Yats turned around and put the oligarchs in control of the provinces. Americans look at this and say "god damn Russians and their meddling". |
I don't get this paranoid view point, it assumes that the U.S. is far more competent than it actually is. It ignores how terrible the Ukrainian leaders were, the surprise turn around on the EU deal, etc. and it sounds like whining. Russia meddles in its near abroad constantly, America meddles in countries around the world too, it's, unfortunately, what states do. well, if all were talking about is the $5 billion dollars the U.S. spent in the Ukraine over 20 years, that is rather mild meddling compared to most. If Russia could manage that in its own neighborhood, than if we are following your narrative, that makes them look pretty weak. |
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Kuros
Joined: 27 Apr 2004
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| Posted: Mon Jun 02, 2014 7:36 pm Post subject: |
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| Leon wrote: |
| Kuros wrote: |
| Titus wrote: |
Russians will be blanketed with the images and videos of the civilian casualties. Americans/British etc will probably not see them. This is a major reason why the two groups seem to have entirely different understandings of what is going on over there. |
Based on past experience regarding the United States media, we should all be open to the possibility that what Titus has described may be true. |
Based on what we know of the Russian media, the opposite is as likely to be true, or more so. |
Nobody is stating that the Russian media has any fidelity to the facts.
This pretty much sums up what I think about the American corporate media. |
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Titus
Joined: 19 May 2012
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| Posted: Mon Jun 02, 2014 7:57 pm Post subject: |
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| I don't get this paranoid view point |
Paranoid? Leon, you're not in a position of power. You don't get to use the language of power. You can not use the language of psychology as an argument when you're pushing the official position of the USA. You know when a Canadian drones on and on and on about how wonderful some policy in Canada and how Americans don't have it b/c they're brainwashed and you just roll your eyes b/c you know that he's just repeating moralistic out-group projection as internally useful regime propaganda? Same.
xxx
Of course Russia did not want a no-fly zone in Syria. It was not in their interests. Al Qaeda taking over the Syrian government was not in the interests of regional stability (ie gas deliveries). Of course Russia will want a no-fly zone in east Ukraine. Russia is a quasi ethno-state and ethnic Russians are being killed. Pretty easy to figure out. In both cases I'm in full agreement.
How about America? Here's that autistic gorilla at it again, in bed with Nazi's in Ukraine and Al Qaeda in Syria. America wants air power for the Junta in Ukraine and no air attacks against Al Qaeda in Syria.
Then the autistic gorilla turns around and thumps his chest "you must have gay rights" and the Russians think okokok we have a Nazi and Al Qaeda supporting Autistic Gorilla who demands gay rights in our country.
Can you make sense of this? Most white people are not wired to think in terms of ethnic politics. So I'll just ask Leon (or BB or Kuros or whoever): how in the hell do you make sense of this?
It is easy to understand why Russia slammed Chechnya (twice). They wanted stable borders. What in the hell is America doing? Why was Nuland handing out cookies? Why is America in bed with Al Qaeda? For the territorial integrity of America? Because of the Americans at risk from the basically secular government?
For how much longer must humanity suffer this meddlesome, schizo, puritanical yet messianically degenerate, violent, violent, violent autistic groilla? |
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Leon
Joined: 31 May 2010
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| Posted: Mon Jun 02, 2014 7:57 pm Post subject: |
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| Kuros wrote: |
| Leon wrote: |
| Kuros wrote: |
| Titus wrote: |
Russians will be blanketed with the images and videos of the civilian casualties. Americans/British etc will probably not see them. This is a major reason why the two groups seem to have entirely different understandings of what is going on over there. |
Based on past experience regarding the United States media, we should all be open to the possibility that what Titus has described may be true. |
Based on what we know of the Russian media, the opposite is as likely to be true, or more so. |
Nobody is stating that the Russian media has any fidelity to the facts.
This pretty much sums up what I think about the American corporate media. |
RT airing a clip about other countries media being beholden to government, that was really obnoxious to watch. I don't disagree, but I mean how long ago was manufacturing consent written. If you go in knowing that the bias exists, look at enough sources, you can usually get a somewhat reasonable idea of what's going on, but if the only source for a claim is the leader of the separatists, as is the case with the cluster bombs, it doesn't make much sense to take it at face value. |
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Kuros
Joined: 27 Apr 2004
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| Posted: Mon Jun 02, 2014 8:05 pm Post subject: |
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| Titus wrote: |
| Why is America in bed with Al Qaeda? |
Why do you beat your wife? |
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Titus
Joined: 19 May 2012
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| Posted: Mon Jun 02, 2014 8:08 pm Post subject: |
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| Kuros wrote: |
| Titus wrote: |
| Why is America in bed with Al Qaeda? |
Why do you beat your wife? |
Even if I don't know why, she does.
Surely, you're not going to make me dig up all the completely mainline articles I've posted in the Syria thread to demonstrate that, in fact, the USA is funneling guns and money to Al Qaeda, that it has provided logistics support for Al Qaeda and is now hoping to establish air cover for Al Qaeda. |
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Leon
Joined: 31 May 2010
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| Posted: Mon Jun 02, 2014 8:20 pm Post subject: |
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| Titus wrote: |
| Quote: |
| I don't get this paranoid view point |
Paranoid? Leon, you're not in a position of power. You don't get to use the language of power. You can not use the language of psychology as an argument when you're pushing the official position of the USA. You know when a Canadian drones on and on and on about how wonderful some policy in Canada and how Americans don't have it b/c they're brainwashed and you just roll your eyes b/c you know that he's just repeating moralistic out-group projection as internally useful regime propaganda? Same. |
My view that the U.S. Gov is too incompetent to have engineered this is the official position of the U.S.?
| Titus wrote: |
xxx
Of course Russia did not want a no-fly zone in Syria. It was not in their interests. Al Qaeda taking over the Syrian government was not in the interests of regional stability (ie gas deliveries). Of course Russia will want a no-fly zone in east Ukraine. Russia is a quasi ethno-state and ethnic Russians are being killed. Pretty easy to figure out. In both cases I'm in full agreement.
How about America? Here's that autistic gorilla at it again, in bed with Nazi's in Ukraine and Al Qaeda in Syria. America wants air power for the Junta in Ukraine and no air attacks against Al Qaeda in Syria. |
I'm going to push this. Why keep calling the Kiev government a Junta when they aren't? Just a few posts ago, you were saying that the Kiev government was full of Jews, and now they are Nazis again? Al Qaeda disowned the rebels in Syria by the way, just for the interest in accuracy.
| Titus wrote: |
Then the autistic gorilla turns around and thumps his chest "you must have gay rights" and the Russians think okokok we have a Nazi and Al Qaeda supporting Autistic Gorilla who demands gay rights in our country.
Can you make sense of this? Most white people are not wired to think in terms of ethnic politics. So I'll just ask Leon (or BB or Kuros or whoever): how in the hell do you make sense of this? |
Easy, America is acting reactively instead of proactively, because of the incompetence that I mentioned earlier. They didn't plan this, but now that it happened everyone is calling on them to do something, and there is pressure from other Eastern European states, and other allies, to do something.
| Titus wrote: |
It is easy to understand why Russia slammed Chechnya (twice). They wanted stable borders. What in the hell is America doing? Why was Nuland handing out cookies? Why is America in bed with Al Qaeda? For the territorial integrity of America? Because of the Americans at risk from the basically secular government?
For how much longer must humanity suffer this meddlesome, schizo, puritanical yet messianically degenerate, violent, violent, violent autistic groilla? |
If Russia wants stable borders than it possibly just screwed up. Nuland handing out cookies mattered strategically how, or are you just caught up in the imagery of all this? Dude, America has many many faults, but I don't see Russia as being at all better, just weaker and less able to influence world events. If you look at the countries in Russia's sphere of influence you mostly have a bunch of gangster countries and regions run by thugs. I could ask that last question about Russia as well. I, honestly, agree with many of your criticisms of America- not all and not to the same scale and not as virulent, but your whole ethnic kick almost seems to make you blind to certain things. |
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maximmm
Joined: 01 Feb 2008
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| Posted: Mon Jun 02, 2014 8:57 pm Post subject: |
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Considering that USA was successful in a number of proxy wars, I think Leon is underestimating USA's competence in such matters.
By the way, destabilizing regions/countries via various agents from within is a page from the oldest book in covert operations. It's been used in feudal wars in China and Japan when various provinces were split up. USA is not better at this than other countries, but it is also not any worse (err... actually, I'd say it is better than other nations at this, if only due to the massive military budget assigned for such operations). |
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maximmm
Joined: 01 Feb 2008
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| Posted: Mon Jun 02, 2014 9:06 pm Post subject: |
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| Leon wrote: |
I'm going to push this. Why keep calling the Kiev government a Junta when they aren't? Just a few posts ago, you were saying that the Kiev government was full of Jews, and now they are Nazis again?
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I think I'll agree with this point.
The whole nazi angle - it's not altogether an incorrect one, as two neo-nazi parties are represented in the current Ukrainian government, but when people say that about the whole government, or the whole pro-western part of Ukraine, it is very wrong.
In fact, I suspect that many Ukrainians were duped by the Poroshenko, since many voted for him due to his campaign promise to negotiate with the pro-Russia separatists - instead he pushed for a bigger war. |
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Leon
Joined: 31 May 2010
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| Posted: Tue Jun 03, 2014 2:54 am Post subject: |
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| maximmm wrote: |
Considering that USA was successful in a number of proxy wars, I think Leon is underestimating USA's competence in such matters.
By the way, destabilizing regions/countries via various agents from within is a page from the oldest book in covert operations. It's been used in feudal wars in China and Japan when various provinces were split up. USA is not better at this than other countries, but it is also not any worse (err... actually, I'd say it is better than other nations at this, if only due to the massive military budget assigned for such operations). |
This was true during the Cold War, and the C.I.A. might still be able to pull it off today, but Nuland is from State. Secondly, why would the U.S. want this outcome, and why does it seem so surprised by what is happening?
All of this has a clear inciting incident, Yanukovych turning his back on a 5 year old EU deal. Did the U.S. plan that? The protests started the same day, that's a remarkably fast turn around for the U.S., it's almost as if Ukranians have a mind of their own! Or is it that only the pro Russian Ukrainians are able to riot and make chaos without a sponsor? |
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maximmm
Joined: 01 Feb 2008
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