Site Search:
 
TEFL International Supports Dave's ESL Cafe
TEFL Courses, TESOL Course, English Teaching Jobs - TEFL International
Korean Job Discussion Forums Forum Index Korean Job Discussion Forums
"The Internet's Meeting Place for ESL/EFL Teachers from Around the World!"
 
 FAQFAQ   SearchSearch   MemberlistMemberlist   UsergroupsUsergroups   RegisterRegister 
 ProfileProfile   Log in to check your private messagesLog in to check your private messages   Log inLog in 

Ukraine and the Crimean War
Goto page Previous  1, 2, 3 ... 33, 34, 35 ... 41, 42, 43  Next
 
Post new topic   Reply to topic    Korean Job Discussion Forums Forum Index -> Current Events Forum
View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
Titus



Joined: 19 May 2012

PostPosted: Tue Jun 03, 2014 8:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Leon doesn't think that USG is competent enough to organize and fund a protest while at the same time pressuring the government to not use violence to put down the protest and at the same time encourage the protesters to use violence.

I assume that Leon is some kind of anarchist libertarian, given his opinion on the competency of USG.

Leon doesn't think 5 billion was enough. He thinks it entirely a coincidence that USG got exactly what and who it wanted.

Quote:
Here is a VERY graphic scene after today's air raid on Luganks region.


When talking to regime loyalists you need to remember the First Principle: If it was not on CNN it did not happen. This is a non-negotiable rule.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Leon



Joined: 31 May 2010

PostPosted: Tue Jun 03, 2014 8:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Titus wrote:
Leon doesn't think that USG is competent enough to organize and fund a protest while at the same time pressuring the government to not use violence to put down the protest and at the same time encourage the protesters to use violence.

I assume that Leon is some kind of anarchist libertarian, given his opinion on the competency of USG.

Leon doesn't think 5 billion was enough. He thinks it entirely a coincidence that USG got exactly what and who it wanted.


Titus thinks that if he doesn't mention the context, i.e. the EU deal, that it won't get talked about? Titus thinks that Ukrainians are so stupid that they are mere U.S. puppets? etc. etc.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Titus



Joined: 19 May 2012

PostPosted: Tue Jun 03, 2014 8:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Leon wrote:
Titus wrote:
Leon doesn't think that USG is competent enough to organize and fund a protest while at the same time pressuring the government to not use violence to put down the protest and at the same time encourage the protesters to use violence.

I assume that Leon is some kind of anarchist libertarian, given his opinion on the competency of USG.

Leon doesn't think 5 billion was enough. He thinks it entirely a coincidence that USG got exactly what and who it wanted.


Titus thinks that if he doesn't mention the context, i.e. the EU deal, that it won't get talked about? Titus thinks that Ukrainians are so stupid that they are mere U.S. puppets? etc. etc.


The context is very simple. The EU offered a shitty deal. The Russian deal was better. The Ukrainian gov made the right choice and the USA/NGO's used their proxies to undermine the government.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Titus



Joined: 19 May 2012

PostPosted: Tue Jun 03, 2014 8:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Leon wrote:


I'm going to push this. Why keep calling the Kiev government a Junta when they aren't? Just a few posts ago, you were saying that the Kiev government was full of Jews, and now they are Nazis again?


Because it is a Junta. Surely if the inverse were happening you'd agree.

Leon. The people doing the major fighting, prior to the conscripts, were nazis. The government was installed by a Judaic - Nuland - who wanted and got a Judaic - Yats, who then made Judaic oligarchs the governors of the eastern provinces. This is 100% true. Without exception. I know this is hard for you to understand. Let me walk you through it. The Right Sector want to first secure the state against Russian involvement and then de-Jew it. First and then second. The Jews think the Nazi's are patsies and the Nazi's think the Jews are patsies. If Right Sector thought it could invert the order, it would. If the Judaic oligarchs (Kolomoysky etc) and Judaic NGO heads (Soros, etc) and Judaic State Dept money-men (Nuland) thought they could do the fighting without the Nazi's, they would. When the two groups feel they are done with the other they'll then engage in conflict themselves.

Ukraine is an ethnic conflict. There are layers of ethnic conflicts. This type of conflict is as old as our species. Groups compete for territory and resources.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Leon



Joined: 31 May 2010

PostPosted: Tue Jun 03, 2014 12:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Titus wrote:
Leon wrote:
Titus wrote:
Leon doesn't think that USG is competent enough to organize and fund a protest while at the same time pressuring the government to not use violence to put down the protest and at the same time encourage the protesters to use violence.

I assume that Leon is some kind of anarchist libertarian, given his opinion on the competency of USG.

Leon doesn't think 5 billion was enough. He thinks it entirely a coincidence that USG got exactly what and who it wanted.


Titus thinks that if he doesn't mention the context, i.e. the EU deal, that it won't get talked about? Titus thinks that Ukrainians are so stupid that they are mere U.S. puppets? etc. etc.


The context is very simple. The EU offered a shitty deal. The Russian deal was better. The Ukrainian gov made the right choice and the USA/NGO's used their proxies to undermine the government.


Seems quite a few Ukrainians disagreed with that. How exactly did the U.S. use their proxies to undermine the government-not speculation, how? I've looked and other than Nuland saying stupid things, there isn't much evidence out there, and what is out there is coming from Russian or conspiracy sources.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Leon



Joined: 31 May 2010

PostPosted: Tue Jun 03, 2014 12:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Titus wrote:
Leon wrote:


I'm going to push this. Why keep calling the Kiev government a Junta when they aren't? Just a few posts ago, you were saying that the Kiev government was full of Jews, and now they are Nazis again?


Because it is a Junta. Surely if the inverse were happening you'd agree.


No, because a junta is a very specific thing- rule by military officers, and any other use of the word is pure propaganda. If you can't even get something as black and white as this right, how can I believe everything else you say?

Titus wrote:

Leon. The people doing the major fighting, prior to the conscripts, were nazis. The government was installed by a Judaic - Nuland - who wanted and got a Judaic - Yats, who then made Judaic oligarchs the governors of the eastern provinces. This is 100% true. Without exception. I know this is hard for you to understand. Let me walk you through it. The Right Sector want to first secure the state against Russian involvement and then de-Jew it. First and then second. The Jews think the Nazi's are patsies and the Nazi's think the Jews are patsies. If Right Sector thought it could invert the order, it would. If the Judaic oligarchs (Kolomoysky etc) and Judaic NGO heads (Soros, etc) and Judaic State Dept money-men (Nuland) thought they could do the fighting without the Nazi's, they would. When the two groups feel they are done with the other they'll then engage in conflict themselves.

Ukraine is an ethnic conflict. There are layers of ethnic conflicts. This type of conflict is as old as our species. Groups compete for territory and resources.


I just spent a few minutes googling about jews in Ukraine, seems David Duke and others are right there with you.

Can we drop all this Nazi stuff?

"Two far-right nationalist candidates appeared to do poorly. Oleg Tyagnibok of the Svoboda party and Dmitry Yarosh of the Right Sector party each received roughly 1 percent of the vote, according to the exit polls."

http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/ukrainians-head-to-the-polls-to-elect-a-new-president-except-in-the-restive-east/2014/05/25/2680fad4-e9f7-4118-923e-852b01351b39_story.html

What, in particular, has the government in power done that was particularly nazish so far? Kill armed separatists? If that's the bar we are setting, than quite a lot of states are Nazi's or potential nazi's.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
maximmm



Joined: 01 Feb 2008

PostPosted: Tue Jun 03, 2014 6:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Leon wrote:


What, in particular, has the government in power done that was particularly nazish so far? Kill armed separatists? If that's the bar we are setting, than quite a lot of states are Nazi's or potential nazi's.


It would appear that both of you are using bunch of exaggerations to make your points.

While I agree with you that we haven't seen any acts by the new government that would support the whole 'nazi' angle, not all people killed by the Ukrainian army were armed - something that is well demonstrated in this video -http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=88k8jcGHJnU
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Leon



Joined: 31 May 2010

PostPosted: Tue Jun 03, 2014 6:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

maximmm wrote:
Leon wrote:


What, in particular, has the government in power done that was particularly nazish so far? Kill armed separatists? If that's the bar we are setting, than quite a lot of states are Nazi's or potential nazi's.


It would appear that both of you are using bunch of exaggerations to make your points.

While I agree with you that we haven't seen any acts by the new government that would support the whole 'nazi' angle, not all people killed by the Ukrainian army were armed - something that is well demonstrated in this video -http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=88k8jcGHJnU


You're going to have to provide some context for this video if it is supposed to mean something. Again, it's tragic and stupid, but not Nazish even if this video portrays exactly what you say it does. Civilians getting killed in the aftermath of an armed insurrection is unfortunately what almost always happens, I'm not trying to exaggerate, I thought that was implied. Honestly, I'm looking at the reported numbers killed so far, no telling if any of them are accurate, and this whole thing seems pretty restrained all things considered. So far the Kiev government has not been involved in any massacres like occured in Syria, or Balkans, or Grozny.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
maximmm



Joined: 01 Feb 2008

PostPosted: Tue Jun 03, 2014 8:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Leon wrote:


You're going to have to provide some context for this video if it is supposed to mean something. Again, it's tragic and stupid, but not Nazish even if this video portrays exactly what you say it does. Civilians getting killed in the aftermath of an armed insurrection is unfortunately what almost always happens, I'm not trying to exaggerate, I thought that was implied. Honestly, I'm looking at the reported numbers killed so far, no telling if any of them are accurate, and this whole thing seems pretty restrained all things considered. So far the Kiev government has not been involved in any massacres like occured in Syria, or Balkans, or Grozny.


This video shows the aftermath of an air raid by the Ukrainian forces.
Once again, I am not making the nazi argument here, so there is no need to convince me of that.

Ukraine forces have been fairly restrained, yes. Poroshenko said in his post-elections speech that taking down armed separatists should take hours, not weeks and I'm quite certain that he wanted to crush them with a massive invasion force. In the end, either someone has talked him out of it (perhaps CIA advisers) or perhaps the fear of Russian invasion made him rethink his strategy.

At this stage though, I wonder if Russia would interfere even if Ukraine started to shell pro-Russia cities indiscriminately. Putin these days spends more time talking about gas prices and has completely forgotten about his 'we should protect ethnic Russians in Ukraine' rhetoric.

Still, Russia did call for a security council meeting in order to stop the violence in that region. It should be interesting to see how it will work out.
Right now though western nations have turned a blind eye to what's happening there - and when people get killed, they blame Russia and never Ukraine. It's all rather surreal, but that is the definition of cold war - the scripts have been handed out and regardless of what happens during the play, actors still say their rehearsed lines even when contextually it makes absolutely no sense.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
maximmm



Joined: 01 Feb 2008

PostPosted: Wed Jun 04, 2014 12:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

A rather surprising turn of events, as CNN did cover the air raid of Luganks and had actually supported the Donetsk side of the story (after all, it could have opted to side with Ukraine, which denies that it bombed the building - and in the beginning it also denied having any airplanes in the area - despite damning evidence in terms of video of an airplane firing as well as the shell remains on the ground).

http://edition.cnn.com/2014/06/03/world/europe/ukraine-luhansk-building-attack/index.html?hpt=hp_t3
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Titus



Joined: 19 May 2012

PostPosted: Wed Jun 04, 2014 5:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Leon wrote:

I just spent a few minutes googling about jews in Ukraine, seems David Duke and others are right there with you.


Outstanding, Leon. You've shamed me by association.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Leon



Joined: 31 May 2010

PostPosted: Wed Jun 04, 2014 5:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Titus wrote:
Leon wrote:

I just spent a few minutes googling about jews in Ukraine, seems David Duke and others are right there with you.


Outstanding, Leon. You've shamed me by association.


It was a cheap shot. Mostly I was surprised how widespread this thing is. Don't be so serious.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Titus



Joined: 19 May 2012

PostPosted: Wed Jun 04, 2014 10:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

It is widespread because it is true.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Titus



Joined: 19 May 2012

PostPosted: Wed Jun 04, 2014 2:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Enough of that.

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/jun/04/obama-russia-dark-tactics-ukraine

Quote:
Barack Obama has accused the Kremlin of resorting to the "dark tactics" of the last century in Ukraine, as European leaders warned of escalating sanctions against Russia if Moscow did not stop facilitating the flow of arms and militants into the east of the country.

Obama and European leaders met in Brussels on Wednesday evening for a two-day summit of the G7 after Russian membership of the G8 was suspended in March because of Vladimir Putin's annexation of Ukraine's Crimean peninsula.

The summit was dominated by Ukraine. Before arriving in Brussels – and before travelling to France, where he is expected to meet Putin for the first time since the Ukrainian crisis erupted in February – Obama pledged to resist Russian aggression in eastern Europe.

"The days of empire and spheres of influence are over. Bigger nations must not be allowed to bully the small, or impose their will at the barrel of a gun or with masked men taking over buildings," said Obama at the royal palace in Warsaw.


How can he say things like this without feeling like an ass?
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
maximmm



Joined: 01 Feb 2008

PostPosted: Wed Jun 04, 2014 4:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Titus wrote:
Enough of that.

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/jun/04/obama-russia-dark-tactics-ukraine

Quote:
Barack Obama has accused the Kremlin of resorting to the "dark tactics" of the last century in Ukraine, as European leaders warned of escalating sanctions against Russia if Moscow did not stop facilitating the flow of arms and militants into the east of the country.

Obama and European leaders met in Brussels on Wednesday evening for a two-day summit of the G7 after Russian membership of the G8 was suspended in March because of Vladimir Putin's annexation of Ukraine's Crimean peninsula.

The summit was dominated by Ukraine. Before arriving in Brussels – and before travelling to France, where he is expected to meet Putin for the first time since the Ukrainian crisis erupted in February – Obama pledged to resist Russian aggression in eastern Europe.

"The days of empire and spheres of influence are over. Bigger nations must not be allowed to bully the small, or impose their will at the barrel of a gun or with masked men taking over buildings," said Obama at the royal palace in Warsaw.


How can he say things like this without feeling like an ass?


Once again, as I've earlier pointed out, this is cold war rhetoric - where hypocrisy is abound on all sides. Some analysts say that now may be a good time to stop reading news altogether because while this whole cold war bit is going on, news comprises of absolute propaganda/brainwashing bullshit.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic   Reply to topic    Korean Job Discussion Forums Forum Index -> Current Events Forum All times are GMT - 8 Hours
Goto page Previous  1, 2, 3 ... 33, 34, 35 ... 41, 42, 43  Next
Page 34 of 43

 
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum


This page is maintained by the one and only Dave Sperling.
Contact Dave's ESL Cafe
Copyright © 2013 Dave Sperling. All Rights Reserved.

Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2002 phpBB Group

TEFL International Supports Dave's ESL Cafe
TEFL Courses, TESOL Course, English Teaching Jobs - TEFL International