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Is being single selfish?
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Mix1



Joined: 08 May 2007

PostPosted: Fri Apr 11, 2014 2:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Fox wrote:


Mix1 wrote:
Biology AND the 50% divorce rates would certainly suggest that it's an open question whether we are "meant" to mate for life.


Regarding biology, I'm not sure it's as clear cut as all of that. There are evident biological facts, and then there's a matter of interpreting them. Which is biologically superior, raising more children, or raising better children? In a high infant-mortality environment, I can see a case being made for more, but in a low infant-mortality environment which is already quite populated, I don't think it would be shocking to suggest that raising better children would be biologically optimal.

I never said it was clear cut, I said it's an open question. We evolved in a high infant-mortality environment, hence our biological drives to screw as much as possible, and not just one partner. From a procreation standpoint, it just makes sense. In a modern society with modern constrictions, it's problematic. Either way, whether someone chooses to be monogamous or not, it's important to understand our base drives.

And I believe not all people have the same drives. Some are naturally monogamous (usually the unattractive ones with fewer options) while others are not, and fight like heck against their basic drives. So while YOU might think you are designed to be monogamous, others might not be at all. Think of alpha males with harums or serial cheaters... there's something going on beyond just being irresponsible "scumbags" who want to get laid more.

And this includes women in the equation, who also have strong desires to mate with more than one partner, especially if her current partner is a bit of a shmuck.

She just needs the proper circumstances: Introduce a married woman to a rich, famous, intelligent 6'4" handsome, muscled stud, and let them go out for coffee a few times. She might not cheat every time, but part of her WILL want to screw (procreate) with the guy, whether she is married or not. Those are her base drives: "Those are some good genes. I want to pair with them."
Quote:

Regarding the 50% divorce rate, that has to be understood in a context where the ideology against which I'm complaining is quite wide-spread. Is a massive divorce rate really in people's best interests, or is it the path they're being led down by bad advice and a toxic cultural environment? Obviously I feel the latter, but it would be difficult to demonstrably prove beyond all deniablility. This is a matter where one ultimately is going to face the logical consequences of one's actions.

Definitely. I'm not debating whether divorce is a good choice or not, I'm using the 50% divorce rate to support my point that maybe we simply are NOT meant to mate with one person for life, and the divorce rate is in part evidence of that.

Divorce is often a bad choice and yet half the people do it anyway. Why? Maybe they are over their partner and ready to move on or maybe there are other issues. Not saying that's good or bad. And of that 50% that didn't divorce, how many of them cheated at some point, or wanted to? The drive to screw more than one partner is pretty undeniable, so I'd say it's much harder to argue that we are "meant" to mate with only one for life than the other way around.

Quote:

I think we're more concerned here with the optimal.Maybe a better way to put it would be that we are more insulated from the consequences of our choices than at any previous time in history.
In some ways that's true, and that's a beautiful thing, because it brings us more choices. In this day and age, there are few if any negative consequences for not having kids or getting married.
Also, "optimal" depends on the setting/context, and your "optimal" is certainly not everyone else's "optimal".
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Jongno2bucheon



Joined: 11 Mar 2014

PostPosted: Fri Apr 11, 2014 2:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Fox wrote:
Jongno2bucheon wrote:

Yes, in korea women usually leave work early and put in less hours to take care of children. But a man never does. Even if he wants to, he would not be allowed to.


I've left work early and been to work late at times for the sake of my children. My principal, vice principal, and co-workers have all been very understanding at such times. A business office environment may be different, but I suspect that as Korea's fertility crisis continues, that will change as well.


Its also because youre a foreigner so people would make an exception for you. There is much less leeway for korean men. me... I am somewhere in the middle even it comes to exceptions for manners but I would get very little special treatment for family stuff

if anything changes it will be when there are company sponsored daycare centers. Then its game over... population boom and more english students
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Fox



Joined: 04 Mar 2009

PostPosted: Fri Apr 11, 2014 2:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mix1 wrote:

And I believe not all people have the same drives. Some are naturally monogamous (usually the unattractive ones with fewer options) while others are not, and fight like heck against their basic drives. So while YOU might think you are designed to be monogamous, others might not be at all.


Hah, don't think I didn't notice the subtle mockery there! I'm not exactly model material though, so you might not be too far off the mark.

Mix1 wrote:
Definitely. I'm not debating whether divorce is a good choice or not, I'm using the 50% divorce rate to support my point that maybe we simply are NOT meant to mate with one person for life, and the divorce rate is in part evidence of that.

Divorce is often a bad choice and yet half the people do it anyway. Why?


Well, considering that people do a lot of self-destructive things, at least within the context of their actual lives, I suspect the answer is that our genetic inclinations, on their own, are simply inadequate to meet the challenges of modern life. Reason and good advice need to make up the difference if we're going to pursue excellent lives. What I would say we are "meant" to do -- at least what most individuals are "meant" to do anyway -- is form enduring family units which can serve as a context for reproduction and continued human existence. If that's the natural end towards which one is inclined, then the same behavioral set which might have worked in primitive times won't necessarily work now, right? So that means we need to choose between means and ends. When someone says, "Humans are not meant to mate for life. It's just a fact," I see them as emphasizing means over ends, which seems to me (and in my experience generally is) a recipe for misery. The man who would be reasonable in choosing life-long solitude is the man whose natural ends are different; the man who genuinely has no urge for that family context, not the man who has an urge in that direction but simply can't control his sex drive.
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Died By Bear



Joined: 13 Jul 2010
Location: On the big lake they call Gitche Gumee

PostPosted: Fri Apr 11, 2014 3:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Take a break Fox, take a break. You've been on this shift too long.
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Newbie



Joined: 07 Feb 2003

PostPosted: Fri Apr 11, 2014 5:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

radcon wrote:
Newbie wrote:
I'm married and have kids...

I wouldn't call being single selfish. I do however think family people are better and more important than single people (sorry, but I'm being honest), but some people just need to be single and that's fine. That's just how they have to be and I can respect that. In fact I have a ton of respect for people who are so strongly self-aware that they realize marriage and kids aren't for them. Glad they don't give in to any "pressure" to get married.

EDIT: I should specify that when I say married people are "better" than single people I don't mean all married people. I mean people who do it well. Faithful husbands/wives, devoted and self-sacrifcing fathers/mothers. There are obviously a lot of married/family people out there who are complete scum and not at all better than a single person.




What asinine comments. "married people are better, except for those that suck."


Yeah... not so much. Poorly worded perhaps, but fairly accurate. Generally, family people have a lot more going for them then people who want to be single their whole lives. Theiy're more down to earth, head done on right, selfless, and more loving. But of course that's not always the case. Some/many are also complete losers, slackers, going nowhere, and into the family life for the wrong reasons, or they were mistaken for thinking it was for them.

Many "I never want to get married' people are just kinda off. However, there are also many that are great people dedicating a lot of their time to helping others and making people the world a better place. Seems to me they're in the minority, though. I could be wrong, but I think most of the "I never wanna get married" crew are just too self-involved. Again, it's entirely possible I'm wrong and being unfair, but I don't think so.

But if we're all on a sinking ship and you have 4 single people on one side, and a family of 4 on the other: screw the single guys, the family gets the boat.
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Newbie



Joined: 07 Feb 2003

PostPosted: Fri Apr 11, 2014 6:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mix1 wrote:
Newbie wrote:


i think there is something within people who want to get married and have kids that is a bit seflish: I don't want to be alone, I want a little one to carry on my name/legacy, etc., Not always, but I think it can be there and some people don't want to admit it. And once you actually do have those kids the selfishness HAS to disappear (if you want to be a decent parent) Sadly it seems in this day and age that many people don't pass up that selfishness. How many parenting websites, books, etc go on about "Make sure you take some ME time" crap. No. Sorry.You have kids. You can take ME time when they're grown up. If you can't handle that, you never should have had kids in the first place. Kids first always. You a distant second.

That's YOUR take on parenting and I hope most don't follow it. In fact, your take on it is part of a newer trend that puts kids on a pedestal and tends to spoil them or make them think they are the center of the universe. That's not good for society at all. It puts kids ahead of adults (the veterans of childhood) which is completely bassackwards traditionally and historically.

It's also kind of disgusting to see parents fawning over their kids and spoiling them. If they want to do that, ok, but keep them out of everyone else's way and teach them some manners at least. It's not up to the rest of us to take up the slack when these "parents" drop the ball on true parenting and discipline/control. Talk about being "selfish".

There's a book on parenting modeled on the French. Can't remember the name. Kids have their time, and adults have their time, and at night it's adult time including drinks and adult conversation. No kids running around screaming or trying to watch cartoons at volume 11 on the iPad. I hope THAT becomes the new parenting trend. Would build kids who were a bit more humble and didn't think everything revolves around them.


Don't get me wrong, I hate the parents who treat their kids like the star of the show, the most important person in the world, or as you put it, "fawning ... spoiling ... on a pedestal" stuiff.

My parenting is all about discipline, manners, and teaching them to always think of others first. But my parenting also includes ALWAYS putting my children's needs ahead of mine. I'm not talking, "Daddy buy me that new Barbie" ,... "Absolutely" kind of putting them first, or bubble wrapping them and being afraid to "hurt their feelings".

I find the parenting I hate (the "make sure you take time for yourself. Get out to that spa... make sure you spend time with your friends") and the parenting you hate ("ooh, oooh, everyone, look at my child. Isn't she the cutest") are actually coming from the same kind of parents.

When I say always putting my kids' need first, it's a simple matter of always being there for them. No spoiling, no fawning.
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Newbie



Joined: 07 Feb 2003

PostPosted: Fri Apr 11, 2014 6:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

radcon wrote:
To those with kids: can you tell us what benefits you gain from being parents. Be specific. The downsides are obvious and numerous.


You can argue some or most of these are selfish, and I'm okay with that.

1. Love. A love I never had before, and never knew could be so strong. I always kinda heard parents talk about this and would think, "Ah, that's nice." But I never really got it. I do now. It's unbelievable.

2. Life long companionship.

3. The chance to teach someone about all the mistakes I made in my life and help guide them.

4. The unbelievable pride in seeing my kids accomplish something new. Whether it was the first smile, first step, or scoring a hat tirck in soccer.

5. It's actually a really great feeling to put someone ahead of yourself in all matters.

6. Government of Canada and Ontario give us money for our kids. (if you're looking for pratical things.

7. The knowledge that when I die part of me will live on with my girls.

8. Never a dull or quiet Christmas, Easter, summer holiday etc.

9. Inspiration to make the best of myself.

10. Stability

11. No more drunken stupors.

12. Looking forward to being able, in about 10 years or so, to absolutely harrass and scare the crap out of any boy that comes-a-calling.

13. Seeing my parents fall in love with my children.

14. Laughter.

15. It's not creepy for me to go the movie theater and watch things like Frozen when I have a kid with me.

16. Coming home from work tired, annoyed, bothered, and then having my baby smile as soon as she sees me. All my troubles melt away instantly. To be fair, I kinda think when I was single and I came home to a super excited dog it was about the same!

I could go on I'm sure.
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Mr. BlackCat



Joined: 30 Nov 2005
Location: Insert witty remark HERE

PostPosted: Fri Apr 11, 2014 6:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think the crux of this "debate", as the title of this thread suggests, is why we can't just accept that some people live their lives differently. Why do some people feel the need to force their life choices on others?

Yet it almost always comes from 'one side', as it were. Think about this:

A) I'm out with married friends. They constantly ask me when I'm going to put a ring on the person I happen to be with at that time. There's pressure. I would never, ever, ask them when they're getting a divorce and returning to single life.

B) I go to a wedding and everyone asks me when it's my turn. I say 'never', they say I'll change my mind. I never, ever, say to the married couple, "Oh sure, you'll get married today, but you'll change your mind and split one day!"

C) A parent tells me that having a kid made their life so much better and worth living. They tell me that I only think I'm happy because I don't know what true happiness is. I would never, ever, say, "Yeah well, you're only saying you're happy because otherwise you're a terrible person. You're fooling yourself when you're getting up at 5am for a diaper change into thinking your happy because you're the one who doesn't know what true happiness is!"

D) A family member tells me that I'm being selfish for staying single. Oh by the way, I'm getting married next week and I expect you to spend $500 on getting here, then a gift, and oh yeah, my little son's birthday is next month and he wants a $70 toy and then my little daughter is getting Christened a month after that and you should spend more money getting here and here's the $50 gift we want you to get for her. I would get it myself, but all my tax breaks for being married and having kids only gave me a big enough refund to buy a new TV and soundsystem."

I would never, ever, say, "Oh, must be nice getting a tax refund just because you've proved that you're capable of shooting your DNA at another person like every other human being that has ever walked the Earth! By the way, I'm going to Thailand next month and the ticket is $500. You can just transfer the money. And I'm going to go back to school, a grand from you outta bout do it. I had to pay double taxes this year because I had to work OT because my married co-workers kept taking off early, so a nice new TV of my own would be nice, I'll give you my address so you know where to deliver it!"

My point is that I don't even want to say those things to my married and parental friends, yet it seems to be ok for many of them to say it to me. That's why I put "debate" in quotes above, because it's not a debate. Many married/parental people have made personal choices and try to force those choices on others. When people like me defend ourselves we're called selfish, cynical or mean. I'm perfectly happy living my life and celebrating the lives of my family and friends. It's them who keep coming after me, and deeming my life 'undesirable'. I go to a wedding, drop cash, congratulate and have fun because I love my family/friends and am truly happy for them. Then when something good happens in my life I'm met with, "Yeah, but when are you going to settle down?!" "You're not really happy!" "Must be nice to be so selfish and irresponsible!".

Live your life. I'll live mine. And let's just be happy for each other. I don't doubt that seeing your kids when you get home is the best thing that ever happened to you. But it's not the best for me. Just accept that different people have different goals and desires in life, and me pursuing mine has no affect on you pursuing yours. Maybe some people feel the need to judge and patronize single people because they think we're judging and patronizing you. But that's really not the case. We're too busy having fun and spending our disposable income to even think about you guys.
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Jongno2bucheon



Joined: 11 Mar 2014

PostPosted: Fri Apr 11, 2014 7:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mr. BlackCat wrote:

Well, maybe in Korea men don't do that. But at my various jobs back home it was always done. It's actually a well known phenomenon in North America, and some people end up lying about having kids so they don't get all that extra work dumped on them.

As for your last paragraph, this is exactly the problem. You, and many others, seem to think it's either 24/7 alcoholic partying, or settling down with whoever happens to say "yes" and pumping out kids. There is a huge middle ground. Maybe you needed kids to stop going out and drinking all the time, but many people live a very productive happy life without needing to create a baby to anchor them.

I compare it to people back home who think I'm "lucky" to be traveling all the time. Just because I've made different decisions than you doesn't mean I'm living out your fantasy every day, nor does it mean I'm some wild jetsetter partier. I live my life, you live yours. As I said above, I really think it's passive aggressive self-doubt. You're unsure or unhappy about decisions you've made in your life and thus you have to categorize everyone who made other choices as wild alcoholic partiers. That way you can reassure yourself that you've made the proper decisions and everyone who didn't do the exact same thing is "wrong".

I don't mean you personally, I'm talking about the general "you". The society "you".


Im agent smith of the marriage patrol. we found him. muahahahaha

but for reals, i used to think that there should be a facebook for married couples. its was really annoying to see all those updates on facebook of babies etc.

i think society today is made for individualistic lives more and more. i personally don't think its that big of a deal to be single past 40. but you probably do have to make up the companionship with a dog or some sort of active lifestyle to counter the aging effect.
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Newbie



Joined: 07 Feb 2003

PostPosted: Fri Apr 11, 2014 7:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mr. BlackCat wrote:
I think the crux of this "debate", as the title of this thread suggests, is why we can't just accept that some people live their lives differently. Why do some people feel the need to force their life choices on others?

Yet it almost always comes from 'one side', as it were. Think about this:

A) I'm out with married friends. They constantly ask me when I'm going to put a ring on the person I happen to be with at that time. There's pressure. I would never, ever, ask them when they're getting a divorce and returning to single life.

B) I go to a wedding and everyone asks me when it's my turn. I say 'never', they say I'll change my mind. I never, ever, say to the married couple, "Oh sure, you'll get married today, but you'll change your mind and split one day!"

C) A parent tells me that having a kid made their life so much better and worth living. They tell me that I only think I'm happy because I don't know what true happiness is. I would never, ever, say, "Yeah well, you're only saying you're happy because otherwise you're a terrible person. You're fooling yourself when you're getting up at 5am for a diaper change into thinking your happy because you're the one who doesn't know what true happiness is!"

D) A family member tells me that I'm being selfish for staying single. Oh by the way, I'm getting married next week and I expect you to spend $500 on getting here, then a gift, and oh yeah, my little son's birthday is next month and he wants a $70 toy and then my little daughter is getting Christened a month after that and you should spend more money getting here and here's the $50 gift we want you to get for her. I would get it myself, but all my tax breaks for being married and having kids only gave me a big enough refund to buy a new TV and soundsystem."

I would never, ever, say, "Oh, must be nice getting a tax refund just because you've proved that you're capable of shooting your DNA at another person like every other human being that has ever walked the Earth! By the way, I'm going to Thailand next month and the ticket is $500. You can just transfer the money. And I'm going to go back to school, a grand from you outta bout do it. I had to pay double taxes this year because I had to work OT because my married co-workers kept taking off early, so a nice new TV of my own would be nice, I'll give you my address so you know where to deliver it!"

My point is that I don't even want to say those things to my married and parental friends, yet it seems to be ok for many of them to say it to me. That's why I put "debate" in quotes above, because it's not a debate. Many married/parental people have made personal choices and try to force those choices on others. When people like me defend ourselves we're called selfish, cynical or mean. I'm perfectly happy living my life and celebrating the lives of my family and friends. It's them who keep coming after me, and deeming my life 'undesirable'. I go to a wedding, drop cash, congratulate and have fun because I love my family/friends and am truly happy for them. Then when something good happens in my life I'm met with, "Yeah, but when are you going to settle down?!" "You're not really happy!" "Must be nice to be so selfish and irresponsible!".

Live your life. I'll live mine. And let's just be happy for each other. I don't doubt that seeing your kids when you get home is the best thing that ever happened to you. But it's not the best for me. Just accept that different people have different goals and desires in life, and me pursuing mine has no affect on you pursuing yours. Maybe some people feel the need to judge and patronize single people because they think we're judging and patronizing you. But that's really not the case. We're too busy having fun and spending our disposable income to even think about you guys.


Absolutely correct on the very first sentence.

Dead wrong on the rest.

Many single people are just as annoying as those married people you described. They go on about how their lives are so special because they're free to do whatever they want. Some DO go on to married people about how they're living an illusion and that one day they will indeed get a divorce.

Aside from saying how great kids are, I would never go on about all that other crap you've given as examples. And it sounds like you may never be one of those single guys who lectures married people about how being single is so much better. That's good for us. But for you to say it mostly comes from the married people, I think you're being blind to all the gloating that single people do.


And if you're too uninterested (or cheap?) to buy gifts for family/freinds kids, and you're annoyed anout al lthe birthday parties and christenings, then don't bother. Don't show up.
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Sector7G



Joined: 24 May 2008

PostPosted: Fri Apr 11, 2014 8:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Newbie wrote:


But if we're all on a sinking ship and you have 4 single people on one side, and a family of 4 on the other: screw the single guys, the family gets the boat.
I don't know, seems kind of selfish on the part of the family. Probably the best example of selfishness on this thread so far. Maybe even an example of ultimate selfishness.
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Titus



Joined: 19 May 2012

PostPosted: Fri Apr 11, 2014 10:01 am    Post subject: Re: Is being single selfish? Reply with quote

catman wrote:
I just got told off by my sister for being single. Well to be more precise she called me selfish because I said that I have no plans on getting married and having kids. In case you are wondering she is married with a couple of kids herself. I think she sees me with having few responsibilities and greater freedom than she has and doesn't believe it to be fair.

I guess it can be considered selfish if you believe our sole purpose in life is to reproduce. However, I am just happier being single and am not looking for a long term relationship. Of course there are times when it would be nice to come home to someone but those thoughts are few and far between.

It was never an issue until I reached 30. Then the questions started coming from certain family members. The funny thing is my parents don't care at all!

I feel bad for women though. They must have twice as much pressure as we men do.


It is not selfish.

You will die alone. Imagine it. Laying in a hospital bed at 85, alone, nobody to visit, nobody to comfort you.. You quietly suffer alone and wait for the nurse to come to change your diaper b/c maybe today she'll talk to you and you'll feel a moment of human comfort.
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Died By Bear



Joined: 13 Jul 2010
Location: On the big lake they call Gitche Gumee

PostPosted: Fri Apr 11, 2014 10:37 am    Post subject: Re: Is being single selfish? Reply with quote

Titus wrote:
catman wrote:
I just got told off by my sister for being single. Well to be more precise she called me selfish because I said that I have no plans on getting married and having kids. In case you are wondering she is married with a couple of kids herself. I think she sees me with having few responsibilities and greater freedom than she has and doesn't believe it to be fair.

I guess it can be considered selfish if you believe our sole purpose in life is to reproduce. However, I am just happier being single and am not looking for a long term relationship. Of course there are times when it would be nice to come home to someone but those thoughts are few and far between.

It was never an issue until I reached 30. Then the questions started coming from certain family members. The funny thing is my parents don't care at all!

I feel bad for women though. They must have twice as much pressure as we men do.


It is not selfish.

You will die alone. Imagine it. Laying in a hospital bed at 85, alone, nobody to visit, nobody to comfort you.. You quietly suffer alone and wait for the nurse to come to change your diaper b/c maybe today she'll talk to you and you'll feel a moment of human comfort.



Not always. There are volunteer groups that do nothing but visit hospice and hospitals for people that are without any family. They sit and hold hands with dying patients, read them stories, play their favorite music, and keep them company. Also remember that seniors who participate at senior centers have many friends. Family squabbles put more people in the grave early than not. Very Happy
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Janny



Joined: 02 Jul 2008
Location: all over the place

PostPosted: Fri Apr 11, 2014 3:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Live your life. I'll live mine. And let's just be happy for each other. I don't doubt that seeing your kids when you get home is the best thing that ever happened to you. But it's not the best for me. Just accept that different people have different goals and desires in life, and me pursuing mine has no affect on you pursuing yours. Maybe some people feel the need to judge and patronize single people because they think we're judging and patronizing you. But that's really not the case. We're too busy having fun and spending our disposable income to even think about you guys.


YES.
THANK YOU.

Both sides have pros and cons. We are simply intelligent creatures living life out in a strange, new environment. The best thing we can do for each other is stop wondering who's "right".

The world has always needed families. The world has also always needed people who prefer to be alone. We all benefit each other.

More personal stuff: I am extremely introverted. I feel relieved when I am finally alone (out or in my home). I am a dedicated teacher who gives my all to my students each day. I feel I can do that because I am single and childless. And that fact makes me happy.

I do think seeing my own progeny grow would be miraculous. But then I think about how much I love my life and the feeling passes. I enjoy pride and satisfaction by supporting the children in my classroom. It's enough for me and I'm thankful to be able to have this life. Wouldn't've been possible 50 years ago!

Frankly, I'm GLAD most people feel compelled to have families....it takes the pressure off ladies like me. We're not that common, and that's OK too (ie. being strange)

Im sorry I got so pissy with Fox. He started to get really weird sounding there and I realized I'm only acting out of spite with him. Not cool. I don't need to antagonize people, whoever they are.
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Died By Bear



Joined: 13 Jul 2010
Location: On the big lake they call Gitche Gumee

PostPosted: Fri Apr 11, 2014 3:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I hate breeders w/kids on air flights. 'Selfish' isn't even enough to describe them. They suck more than overweight people that won't pay for two seats.
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