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bigverne
Joined: 12 May 2004
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 Posted: Fri Jun 06, 2014 11:28 pm Post subject: |
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The vast majority of immigrants in Britian come from India, China, Poland, Germany, Pakistan, Ireland, USA, Australia and Nigeria.
Is there really a worry that people from these countries would be a drain on the UK? |
In the case of Pakistan and Nigeria yes.
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| The white British population is ageing and emigrating in large numbers |
I have no concrete evidence to back this up, but I would think it quite likely that many are immigrating because the country is becoming too crowded and less like 'home.' Those leaving are often educated and middle class. They are being replaced, in many cases, with people from places like Somalia, Pakistan, and Nigeria. That's a poor exchange.
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| immigration is vital in preventing the sort of challenges that countries like Korea are going to have to face |
I'm not sure what sort of challenges you're referring to, but whatever they are, they certainly don't call for large-scale immigration of low-skilled workers from third-world countries.
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| The dire state of the economy outside of the South East is fundamentally responsible for the fracturing of communities |
There would have been no 'fracturing' of such communities if we had not embarked on the multicultural experiment in the first place. But, we have, so I guess we'll have to deal with it. Btw, the kind of redistributive policies you call for are in fact undermined by increasing diversity. |
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aq8knyus
Joined: 28 Jul 2010
Location: London
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| Posted: Sat Jun 07, 2014 3:02 am Post subject: |
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| In the case of Pakistan and Nigeria yes. |
Does that mean that you are not against large scale immigration so long as it comes from countries such as India and the USA?
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| I have no concrete evidence to back this up, but I would think it quite likely that many are immigrating because the country is becoming too crowded and less like 'home.' Those leaving are often educated and middle class. They are being replaced, in many cases, with people from places like Somalia, Pakistan, and Nigeria. That's a poor exchange. |
Immigrants from places like Somalia are still very much in the minority. The big sources of immigration into the UK are still India, Poland and Ireland. Immigrants from China have also started to increase in number very rapidly.
People from those countries have proved over the years to be very industrious and they continually outperform white British children academically.
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| I'm not sure what sort of challenges you're referring to, but whatever they are, they certainly don't call for large-scale immigration of low-skilled workers from third-world countries. |
The problems that Korea, Japan and Germany are going to have to deal with are related to an ageing society. Korea has already reached its peak labour force and as it continues to shrink the percentage of over 65s will only get bigger and bigger. The burden this will place on government spending will be immense as growth rates slow and start to reverse. The reduced tax revenue from economically active citizens will only compound the fiscal headache for governments in the future.
Those are just a few of the immediate problems that the UK and France dont have to worry about as their birth rate is already just short of the replacemnet rate.
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| There would have been no 'fracturing' of such communities if we had not embarked on the multicultural experiment in the first place. But, we have, so I guess we'll have to deal with it. Btw, the kind of redistributive policies you call for are in fact undermined by increasing diversity. |
One of the things that Britain does better than almost all other countries is its treatment of minorities.
After three or four generations even immigrants from such alien cultures as Bangladesh have integrated into British culture. It wasn't an easy process at first, but as time goes on and Britons become more and more relaxed about multicultural communities divisions have eased.
As for Eastern Europeans, after a generation the only difference between them and us will be a funny surname.
Communities where relations are still strained are almost always in areas of the country that are experiencing severe economic hardship. That is what happens when government and business collude to focus the entire wealth of the nation in London and the South East. |
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Chaparrastique
Joined: 01 Jan 2014
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| Posted: Sat Jun 07, 2014 8:56 pm Post subject: |
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| aq8knyus wrote: |
After three or four generations even immigrants from such alien cultures as Bangladesh have integrated into British culture. |
Cultural roots are not a big obstacle to integration.
But don't pretend that islam is comparable. Its an internal programming that causes its adherents and their progeny to forever reject their hosts, never properly assimilating.
Muslims will happily agree with me. Ask them. |
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Kuros
Joined: 27 Apr 2004
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| Posted: Sat Jun 07, 2014 9:25 pm Post subject: |
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| Chaparrastique wrote: |
| aq8knyus wrote: |
After three or four generations even immigrants from such alien cultures as Bangladesh have integrated into British culture. |
Cultural roots are not a big obstacle to integration.
But don't pretend that islam is comparable. Its an internal programming that causes its adherents and their progeny to forever reject their hosts, never properly assimilating.
Muslims will happily agree with me. Ask them. |
You are full of shit. A Muslim told me so. |
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bigverne
Joined: 12 May 2004
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| Posted: Sun Jun 08, 2014 8:56 pm Post subject: |
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| Does that mean that you are not against large scale immigration so long as it comes from countries such as India and the USA? |
No, I'm against large-scale immigration full stop. The country is simply too crowded, and the negatives outweigh the positives.
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| People from those countries have proved over the years to be very industrious and they continually outperform white British children academically. |
I think what we need to do is raise the academic achievements of working-class white British children, not throw them on the scrapheap and rely on importing people from overseas.
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| The problems that Korea, Japan and Germany are going to have to deal with are related to an ageing society |
Yes, and importing immigrants from overseas, who will eventually get old themselves, will not solve the problem. The system you advocate is in actual fact similar to a pyramid scheme.
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| After three or four generations even immigrants from such alien cultures as Bangladesh have integrated into British culture |
They haven't integrated, they have colonized the areas to which they have immigrated, bringing with them cultural practices utterly alien to Britain. |
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Fox
Joined: 04 Mar 2009
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| Posted: Sun Jun 08, 2014 9:20 pm Post subject: |
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| bigverne wrote: |
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| People from those countries have proved over the years to be very industrious and they continually outperform white British children academically. |
I think what we need to do is raise the academic achievements of working-class white British children, not throw them on the scrapheap and rely on importing people from overseas. |
Yes, responding to local children's academic struggles by importing foreign children is something tantamount to a betrayal. It also hurts third world countries, who need their talented youth far more than western nations do. Poaching educated/skilled adults and their children from third world countries is to at least some degree irresponsible. |
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aq8knyus
Joined: 28 Jul 2010
Location: London
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| Posted: Mon Jun 09, 2014 2:30 am Post subject: |
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| No, I'm against large-scale immigration full stop. The country is simply too crowded, and the negatives outweigh the positives. |
Outside of London and the South East the population of most regions in Britain are not particularly high. An extra 10 million plus over the next two decades are not going to take up too much space if they are housed in regions outside of the South East.
So again the challenge is breaking the South's stranglehold.
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| I think what we need to do is raise the academic achievements of working-class white British children, not throw them on the scrapheap and rely on importing people from overseas. |
We are not relying on imported children, I am just saying that the children of people from India, China and Bangladesh are on average higher achievers academically.
You raised the concern that immigrants would be a burden, but as we can see the children of immigrants can and do perform just as well as white British students, if not better.
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| Yes, and importing immigrants from overseas, who will eventually get old themselves, will not solve the problem. The system you advocate is in actual fact similar to a pyramid scheme. |
Without immigration Britain's population would stagnate and then decline at the same time the number of over 65s would rise significantly. The labour force would shrink and it would hurt growth figures as well as put ever greater strain on government finances.
The system I advocate is one which stops the economy tanking and forcing our generation to work until we drop. If the price of that is more white people with funny surnames and non-white people who celebrate diwali instead of Christmas, I won't care.
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| They haven't integrated, they have colonized the areas to which they have immigrated, bringing with them cultural practices utterly alien to Britain. |
It is over 50 years since the Windrush generation, most of those cultural practices have been a part of British life since before my parents were born.
I agree that the segregation of neighborhoods is wrong and it is contributing greatly to the perception that the UK is being swamped with immigrants. The good news about the increased EU immigration is that they are living outside of traditional hubs in the south. As they spread out into the small market towns and provincial cities the more they and their children will assimilate. |
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aq8knyus
Joined: 28 Jul 2010
Location: London
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| Posted: Mon Jun 09, 2014 2:32 am Post subject: |
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| Fox wrote: |
| bigverne wrote: |
| Quote: |
| People from those countries have proved over the years to be very industrious and they continually outperform white British children academically. |
I think what we need to do is raise the academic achievements of working-class white British children, not throw them on the scrapheap and rely on importing people from overseas. |
Yes, responding to local children's academic struggles by importing foreign children is something tantamount to a betrayal. It also hurts third world countries, who need their talented youth far more than western nations do. Poaching educated/skilled adults and their children from third world countries is to at least some degree irresponsible. |
Apologies if I wasn't being clear, but we are not importing foreign kids to improve standards or fudge the numbers.
I was just saying that British students from immigrant backgrounds tend to do better academically than white British students. |
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Chaparrastique
Joined: 01 Jan 2014
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| Posted: Mon Jun 09, 2014 4:02 am Post subject: |
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| aq8knyus wrote: |
| An extra 10 million plus over the next two decades are not going to take up too much space |
lol when do you want to stop? You must value polluting consuming humans very highly if you want the population to keep increasing exponentially.
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| the children of people from India, China and Bangladesh are on average higher achievers academically. |
if those countries are such high achievers and poms are so dumb then why did brits basically conquer the planet? Culture and religion is more significant to any country's well-being than academic scores.
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| it would hurt growth figures |
Does 'growth' ever end, in your mind? or is our aim just to keep increasing until we all live in cubicles and have to crowd surf to get to work every day.
The outdated economic growth model you are imbued with is unsustainable, built on short-term 20th century thinking. Global population needs to come down.
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| The system I advocate is one which stops the economy tanking |
Either the economy tanks or we drive the planet over a precipice.
The other poster was right, you are advocating a pyramid scheme. |
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aq8knyus
Joined: 28 Jul 2010
Location: London
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| Posted: Mon Jun 09, 2014 8:58 am Post subject: |
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| lol when do you want to stop? You must value polluting consuming humans very highly if you want the population to keep increasing exponentially. |
You do realize this is over a period of decades? Also the birth rate, whilst high, isn't yet even at a replacement level. I am not advocating a 100 million+ population, rather that we take advantage of the huge boom in EU immigrants coming to the UK.
When our population surpasses that of Germany and we enjoy the benefits of living in a country with a much larger percentage of young economically active citizens we can start to put blocks on further migration.
Plus by that time the East would have developed and we wont have large numbers of migrants from the EU anymore.
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| if those countries are such high achievers and poms are so dumb then why did brits basically conquer the planet? |
Because Britain was such a rubbish place to live that vast numbers of its inhabitants happily risked their lives moving to godforsaken hell holes on the other side of the planet.
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Does 'growth' ever end, in your mind? or is our aim just to keep increasing until we all live in cubicles and have to crowd surf to get to work every day.
The outdated economic growth model you are imbued with is unsustainable, built on short-term 20th century thinking. Global population needs to come down. |
Talking of empire, it was the British innovations during the Industrial Revolution that allowed the British to be the first people in 15,000 years of human civilisation to year on year grow their economy beyond a size that was proportionate to their terriotory and resources.
After more than a century of sustained growth Britain went from being a middling power in the early 18th century to the greatest empire in the history of the world by the middle of the 19th. Since then every other country that has wanted to develop has followed that model.
So I think it is in Britain's interest to keep focusing on a growth based economic strategy.
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| Either the economy tanks or we drive the planet over a precipice. |
These people already exist, whether or not we allow them to come to Britain is immaterial to their impact on the environment.
In fact I am proposing that to save our economy from the ravages of an ageing society we should invite willing immigrants. The alternative is that we drive to increase the birth rate of native Britons which would mean more people than currently exist. Immigration is therefore far more environmentally friendly than the alternatives.
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| The other poster was right, you are advocating a pyramid scheme. |
What I am advocating is that we look beyond the banal cultural and racial differences of our immigrant population and focus on their tremendous contribution to the economic success of the country.
I only wish that more Britons would be more patriotic and support large scale immigration. |
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Steelrails
Joined: 12 Mar 2009
Location: Earth, Solar System
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| Posted: Mon Jun 09, 2014 2:57 pm Post subject: |
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| if those countries are such high achievers and poms are so dumb then why did brits basically conquer the planet? |
History ebbs and flows. The Mongols, the Persians, the Romans, the Goths, etc. have all conquered vast swaths of territory and some of those haven't exactly been known for being the brightest beads out there. Likewise, people we might regard as "smart", such as the Swiss or the Swedes haven't engaged in much conquering. |
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bigverne
Joined: 12 May 2004
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| Posted: Mon Jun 09, 2014 4:05 pm Post subject: |
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| When our population surpasses that of Germany |
You do know that Germany has a population of 80 million and is also a far larger country? The UK is already overpopulated, but you wouldn't mind adding another 10 or 15 million? That strikes me as insane. We need to reform our pension and welfare system, which were designed over 60 years ago, not import millions of people into one of the world's most densely populated nations to prop up an increasingly unsustainable economic model.
You know that immigrants get old right? Your 'solution' to this problem requires ever greater numbers of new immigrants to fund the pensions of the previous generation of immigrants who themselves were imported to 'solve' the pension problem. Thus, it necessitates an ever expanding population. It's a bogus argument, like most of the arguments in favor of mass immigration. |
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aq8knyus
Joined: 28 Jul 2010
Location: London
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| Posted: Mon Jun 09, 2014 5:59 pm Post subject: |
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| bigverne wrote: |
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| When our population surpasses that of Germany |
You do know that Germany has a population of 80 million and is also a far larger country? The UK is already overpopulated, but you wouldn't mind adding another 10 or 15 million? That strikes me as insane. We need to reform our pension and welfare system, which were designed over 60 years ago, not import millions of people into one of the world's most densely populated nations to prop up an increasingly unsustainable economic model.
You know that immigrants get old right? Your 'solution' to this problem requires ever greater numbers of new immigrants to fund the pensions of the previous generation of immigrants who themselves were imported to 'solve' the pension problem. Thus, it necessitates an ever expanding population. It's a bogus argument, like most of the arguments in favor of mass immigration. |
The German population won't stay at 80 million. They are projected to fall to below 70 million due to their low birth rate and ageing society. Obviously they could reverse that with immigration, but on current trends Britain's population growth will come at the same time as a German decline.
These immigrants will indeed get old, but not for quite a few decades and they are producing more children than white Brits. Thanks to immigrants the next generation will be sufficiently large enough to cope with an increased proportion of over 65s.
The other great thing about this process is that it is unstoppable. As long as we are a member of the EU there is no way to halt the flow of migrants. Migrants from further afield have family connections to British citizens, you can't exactly stop them coming either.
So we should instead focus on welcoming our immigrant friends. |
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bigverne
Joined: 12 May 2004
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| Posted: Mon Jun 09, 2014 9:29 pm Post subject: |
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| These immigrants will indeed get old, but not for quite a few decades |
So, you admit that immigration is just a short-term fix to the problem of an ageing society and does nothing to address the root of the problem. Just let the next generation deal with it. I'm sure they'll thank you for that, as well as the increased congestion and environmental destruction.
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| The other great thing about this process is that it is unstoppable. As long as we are a member of the EU there is no way to halt the flow of migrants. |
Which is why the EU will become increasingly unpopular.
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| Migrants from further afield have family connections to British citizens, you can't exactly stop them coming either. |
You can stop them by simply implementing strict immigration laws. |
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Chaparrastique
Joined: 01 Jan 2014
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| Posted: Mon Jun 09, 2014 9:56 pm Post subject: |
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| aq8knyus wrote: |
it was the British innovations during the Industrial Revolution that allowed the British to be the first people in 15,000 years of human civilisation to year on year grow their economy beyond a size that was proportionate to their terriotory and resources.
After more than a century of sustained growth Britain went from being a middling power in the early 18th century to the greatest empire in the history of the world by the middle of the 19th. Since then every other country that has wanted to develop has followed that model. |
You ignore the role of culture of course, which is relevant. European judeo-christian cultures have dominated the world not merely because of the industrial revolution. many countries today with knowledge of technology and industry are mired in backwardness and corruption.
But to get back to your point. The industrial revolution came about through the discovery of fossil fuels and cheap energy. This phenomenon is unprecedented in global history and of course it is a temporary blip. Those resources are finite and the environmental damage caused by their use and the oversized human populations they trigger is unsustainable, so are the growth models that they spawned.
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| Thanks to immigrants the next generation will be sufficiently large enough to cope with an increased proportion of over 65s. |
So basically you're just digging the hole deeper as a quick fix.
We've got some hard times ahead on this world as we adjust to the realization that we can't simply go on as before. Economies and populations need to shrink, not grow. If we as humans don't make the decision to do this and start preparing, then nature will do it for us wether we like it or not. |
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