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Iraq -2014
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catman



Joined: 18 Jul 2004

PostPosted: Mon Jun 16, 2014 2:05 am    Post subject: Iraq -2014 Reply with quote

Quote:
Washington is considering direct talks with Iran on the security situation in Iraq, a US official has told the BBC.

The move comes as US President Barack Obama weighs up options on action to take in Iraq.

Meanwhile, the US condemned as "horrifying" photos posted online by Sunni militants that appear to show fighters massacring Iraqi soldiers.

In the scenes, the soldiers are shown being led away and lying in trenches before and after their "execution".

The Iraqi military said the pictures were real, but their authenticity has not been independently confirmed.

The BBC's Jim Muir, in northern Iraq, says if the photographs are genuine, it would be by far the biggest single atrocity since the time of the American-led invasion of Iraq in 2003.

Their emergence came as the Iraqi government claimed to have "regained the initiative" against an offensive by Sunni rebels led by ISIS - the Islamic State in Iraq and the Levant.

Extremists captured key cities, including Mosul and Tikrit, last week, but several towns have now been retaken from the rebels.

However the insurgents captured the northern city of Tal Afar, west of Mosul, overnight after a heavy mortar bombardment.

While the US and Iran are old adversaries, both have an interest in curbing the growing threat posed by ISIS and both are considering military support to the Iraqi government, says the BBC's Rajini Vaidyanathan in Washington.

The US is said to be considering direct discussions with Tehran which could even take place as early as this week.

The two countries are due to hold the latest round of talks on Iran's nuclear programme in Vienna.

Iranian President Hassan Rouhani has said he will consider co-operation if the US takes action in Iraq.

The USS George HW Bush aircraft carrier is already being deployed to the Gulf, accompanied by two more warships. But Washington says no US troops will be deployed on the ground.

The US has also announced it is increasing security at its embassy in Baghdad and relocating some staff to safer areas.

Meanwhile, there are reports that more than 130 Iranian Revolutionary Guards are in Iraq to provide training and advice.



Quote:
ISIS in Iraq

The Islamic State in Iraq and the Levant (ISIS) has 3,000 to 5,000 fighters, and grew out of an al-Qaeda-linked organisation in Iraq.

Joined in its offensives by other Sunni militant groups, including Saddam-era officers and soldiers, and disaffected Sunni tribal fighters .

ISIS has exploited the standoff between the Iraqi government and the minority Sunni Arab community, which complains that Shia Prime Minister Nouri Maliki is monopolising power.

The organisation is led by Abu Bakr al-Baghdadi, an obscure figure regarded as a battlefield commander and tactician.


Iraq will never ever be the same again, 2003 was the end of Iraq.
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Old Painless



Joined: 01 Jan 2014

PostPosted: Mon Jun 16, 2014 2:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

This is all the fault of bush. If he hadn't invaded Iraq to begin with, none of this would be happening now.
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ttompatz



Joined: 05 Sep 2005
Location: Kwangju, South Korea

PostPosted: Mon Jun 16, 2014 3:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Old Painless wrote:
This is all the fault of bush. If he hadn't invaded Iraq to begin with, none of this would be happening now.


Actually, I think it is more a combination of of American "cowboy thinking":
- "Lets go in and finish what we started back in 1991" and
- American military adventurism.

Bush wasn't alone. There is more than enough blame to spread around and more than enough heads to hang it on.

.
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Old Painless



Joined: 01 Jan 2014

PostPosted: Mon Jun 16, 2014 4:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It was his fault. He's the one that chose that viper, dickhead Rumsfeld and that neo-con mentality.


He stole the election! If my boy Gore would have won the election, we'd never have gone into Iraq.


Obama's no better. The whole lot of them are puppets of the shadow government. Nothing is ever going to solve their sectarian problems. Yet OMG, ISIS is invading Iraq, let's go bail them out. Screw that.
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Steelrails



Joined: 12 Mar 2009
Location: Earth, Solar System

PostPosted: Tue Jun 17, 2014 12:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Old Painless wrote:
This is all the fault of bush. If he hadn't invaded Iraq to begin with, none of this would be happening now.


It might not be happening NOW, but this whole mess was a long time in the making. Between the export of pop culture and democracy, brutal dictators, and artificial state boundaries set post-WWI, this result was more or less the logical conclusion in the Middle East.
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maximmm



Joined: 01 Feb 2008

PostPosted: Tue Jun 17, 2014 4:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

[quote="Steelrails"]
Old Painless wrote:
This is all the fault of bush. If he hadn't invaded Iraq to begin with, none of this would be happening now.


http://williamblum.org/books/americas-deadliest-export
America’s Deadliest Export: Democracy

Then again, before America, we had Spain and England exporting their own versions of government - though really, I find the whole term of 'export of democracy' a somewhat funny title, since it often comprises of forceful and bloody enslavement of people.
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ersatzredux



Joined: 15 Dec 2007
Location: Same as it ever was, same as it ever was

PostPosted: Tue Jun 17, 2014 7:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Let's see here. 30,000 men flee an attack by 800 men? They were taken by surprise were they?

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/jun/11/mosul-isis-gunmen-middle-east-states

And then so happen to come into half a billion in funding, tanks, manpads, Humvees etc.- which they immediately and publicly announce they've transferred to Syria?

The group is led by a "shadowy" mystery man, who was supposedly in American custody for 5 years, eh? And yet was released obviously unbroken- in fact behaving in a very sophisticated fashion- almost as if he'd been trained for the role. The perfect cartoon villain evil Muslim in fact.

Right.
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KimchiNinja



Joined: 01 May 2012
Location: Gangnam

PostPosted: Tue Jun 17, 2014 7:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Old Painless wrote:
This is all the fault of bush. If he hadn't invaded Iraq to begin with, none of this would be happening now.


Yes but then the USA wouldn't have control of the oil. The instability and death is part of the game.
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catman



Joined: 18 Jul 2004

PostPosted: Wed Jun 18, 2014 5:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
As Sami Ramadani, a senior lecturer in sociology at London Metropolitan University, wrote in an op-ed for the Guardian, the U.S. played a key role in stoking the sectarian divides that are fueling the current conflict:


The most serious sectarian and ethnic tensions in Iraq's modern history followed the 2003 US-led occupation, which faced massive popular opposition and resistance. The US had its own divide-and-rule policy, promoting Iraqi organisations founded on religion, ethnicity, nationality or sect rather than politics. Many senior officers in the newly formed Iraqi army came from these organisations and Saddam's army. This was exacerbated three years ago, when sectarian groups in Syria were backed by the US, Turkey, Saudi Arabia and Qatar.
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Steelrails



Joined: 12 Mar 2009
Location: Earth, Solar System

PostPosted: Wed Jun 18, 2014 4:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ersatzredux wrote:
Let's see here. 30,000 men flee an attack by 800 men? They were taken by surprise were they?

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/jun/11/mosul-isis-gunmen-middle-east-states

And then so happen to come into half a billion in funding, tanks, manpads, Humvees etc.- which they immediately and publicly announce they've transferred to Syria?

The group is led by a "shadowy" mystery man, who was supposedly in American custody for 5 years, eh? And yet was released obviously unbroken- in fact behaving in a very sophisticated fashion- almost as if he'd been trained for the role. The perfect cartoon villain evil Muslim in fact.

Right.


According to reports, most of the soldiers in Mosul were either Sunnis or Kurds, many of them conscripts, who had little interest in laying down their lives to prop up the Maliki government (regime?).

Half a billion in funding sounds a lot, until you realize that's pocket change to the Saudis who have been financing some of these groups as a buffer against Iranian influence.

The tanks, MANPADS, and Humvees all have limited utility. It's a nice haul, don't get me wrong, but they aren't going to win a war with those. The tanks aren't in a quantity as to be decisive in anything but taking over a small town. The Iraqi Air Force has a limited number of targets to take down with those MANPADS, and if they wanted to use them for terrorism, well they already have Soviet and Chinese versions to do that with. A Humvee is basically a souped up technical. Limited value in combat due to its poor protection, as the last 11 years have demonstrated.

As for this "shadowy head". As I said, the end results of this were historically inevitable. This is essentially the Middle East's 30 Years War that is starting to play out. Strongmen are out, artificial borders are crumbling, ethno-religious nationalism is replacing old kings and dictators or Cold War socialist revolutionaries, and an increasingly sexual and anti-religious culture is becoming the global mainstream, threatening traditional values. This "shadowy head" could have never been born or die tomorrow and all of this still goes down.

Sleep tight Tin Hat.
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ersatzredux



Joined: 15 Dec 2007
Location: Same as it ever was, same as it ever was

PostPosted: Wed Jun 18, 2014 6:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tin hat, eh? Well, who knows. Supposedly the Americans can watch this area so closely that they can tell the difference between a "moderate" Islamist rebel and an "extremist" in Syria, can detect small rocket launches in Damascus and intercept all communications at will, etc. and yet this attack wasn't forseen?

They were trained in Jordan by Americans:

http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article38853.htm

Not a single mole among them?

Maybe you're right. That just means that the Americans are really that totally inept. Train them, pay them, buy them guns, but don't have a fucking clue what they're up to?

Tin hat, eh? Keep sucking on that blue pill, Steelrails.
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Steelrails



Joined: 12 Mar 2009
Location: Earth, Solar System

PostPosted: Wed Jun 18, 2014 6:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ersatzredux wrote:
Tin hat, eh? Well, who knows. Supposedly the Americans can watch this area so closely that they can tell the difference between a "moderate" Islamist rebel and an "extremist" in Syria, can detect small rocket launches in Damascus and intercept all communications at will, etc. and yet this attack wasn't forseen?

They were trained in Jordan by Americans:

http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article38853.htm

Not a single mole among them?

Maybe you're right. That just means that the Americans are really that totally inept. Train them, pay them, buy them guns, but don't have a fucking clue what they're up to?

Tin hat, eh? Keep sucking on that blue pill, Steelrails.


Oh you've got it all figured out. I mean, the place that has had tribal and religious warfare on and off for thousands of years and cuts off hands as punishment couldn't possibly have some armed rebel groups marauding around and taking territory. Nope, its all part of some Bilderberg/Masonic conspiracy which YOU have somehow managed to crack the code of.

That's not to say that the US might not have a vague hand out there that's involved. But this movement was going to happen with or without them. The US may be a supporting hand, (or single finger) but that doesn't make it its conceiver.

Quote:
Supposedly the Americans can watch this area so closely that they can tell the difference between a "moderate" Islamist rebel and an "extremist" in Syria


Yes, because different groups have different agendas and records. American intelligence tracks members of each group and monitors them for activity. Sometimes they get it right, sometimes they don't. This isn't some deep mystery or rocket science. It's like being able to tell the difference between someone in the Aryan Brotherhood and some skinhead street punks and someone in the KKK. That's not rocket science. You know how to tell them apart. Same with Islamists.

Quote:
and yet this attack wasn't forseen?


The attack was forseen. The rapid achievement of victory was not. It was thought that the Sunnis and Kurds would resist ISIS, inspite of their disgust for the Maliki government. That assumption turned out to be erroneous.


The only blue pill being sucked is the one that has deluded you into thinking that YOU, have somehow cracked their code. Governments are evil and engage in shady stuff I agree, but that's not some great mystery. You're going in the other direction- ascribing them too much power and influence and evil intent. I'm not some "It's just how they say" type, but I'm not some "It's all part of their plan, man" type either. There's limits in both directions that are bound by reality.

Case in point- I believe that the Americans might give support training or arms or encourage people in these groups. But that doesn't mean I think the US breeds and trains these guys on some sort of secret base like some sort of Clone Trooper factory that they then unleash to serve the whims of the US. The US merely identifies groups that are headed along a certain path and then might give them additional materiel to support that. And we have no idea if or if not that happened here. ISIS was going to exist with or without the US.

It's the difference between LIHOP and MIHOP for the 9/11 attacks. I can sorta buy someone in the State Department burying the report in the bureaucratic mess- only takes 1-2 people, easy to accomplish, looks natural. I can't buy holograms, missiles, offloading passengers, controlled demolition, and all of the other Tin Hat crap.

It's not some huge conspiracy and you aren't some code cracker. Get over yourself and your desperate need to feel important and that you're somehow "in" on it.
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maximmm



Joined: 01 Feb 2008

PostPosted: Wed Jun 18, 2014 7:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Some funny stuff on this subject on last episode of daily show/colbert report.

USA is digging a deeper hole for itself with every year. One day, all the meddling, cia sponsored government overthrows and wars will all come back to bite USA in its arse. That's when we'll see WW3 - and it won't be pretty for either one of us - alas, I say it's a good thing. I just hope ants survive it all, because they can build stuff.
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KimchiNinja



Joined: 01 May 2012
Location: Gangnam

PostPosted: Wed Jun 18, 2014 7:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

maximmm wrote:
One day, all the meddling, cia sponsored government overthrows and wars will all come back to bite USA in its arse.


Yup, that's the way life works. It won't be pretty.
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aq8knyus



Joined: 28 Jul 2010
Location: London

PostPosted: Wed Jun 18, 2014 9:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

maximmm wrote:
Some funny stuff on this subject on last episode of daily show/colbert report.

USA is digging a deeper hole for itself with every year. One day, all the meddling, cia sponsored government overthrows and wars will all come back to bite USA in its arse. That's when we'll see WW3 - and it won't be pretty for either one of us - alas, I say it's a good thing. I just hope ants survive it all, because they can build stuff.


Is there a single country that has the right to throw the first stone? It is hardly like Iran, Russia and China are any better, in fact they are a lot worse.

In anycase relax, there is far too much money to be made for anyone to start getting too bent out of shape over US excesses.
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