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Iraq -2014
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bucheon bum



Joined: 16 Jan 2003
Location: DC area

PostPosted: Fri Aug 08, 2014 7:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Leon wrote:


If you want to understand this problem, read Donald Rumsfeld and Paul Bremer's books. I read them this summer for a research project and it was perhaps two of the most depressing things possible. I hope they both, especially Bremer, feel guilt and remorse every single day for what is going on now and what happened before, but I very much doubt they do.


Rumsfeld sure as hell doesn't. Just watch Errol Morris' documentary on him (primarily). The dude is as arrogant as ever, without one sign of guilt or remorse. He's no Robert McNamara!
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Titus



Joined: 19 May 2012

PostPosted: Sat Aug 09, 2014 4:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Kuros wrote:
I'm with Titus.

This intervention is being sold on the premise that ISIL/ISIS/The Islamic State is the threat, when in fact its simply Iraq devolving into a civil war with more than two sides and ISIL/ISIS is just one army of the splintered Sunni faction. How are airstrikes supposed to solve that?


Airstrikes will prevent one side from winning.

We all feel like shit for what our nations have caused over there. The media is playing on our guilt. They know that high information people are 1) anti war and 2) understand how things got as they are over there. The media/regime wants in, so they need to play with our hearts. They tell us stories of genocide and crucifixions and rape and children being killed.

It should remind us of this piece of perfectly executed propaganda: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LmfVs3WaE9Y

The most sane actor over there is the Iranian government. This is incredible b/c that government is a fundamentalist muslim freakshow. This is how bad our Zionist governments are. The Iranians are more sane. Iran does not have a nuclear weapons program. I need to mention that. The West - meaning western people - meaning white men most importantly as we do all the fighting and funding - needs to focus on the actors and circumstances that keep dragging us into war and eliminate the possibility that this ever happens again, especially with Russia, because we'll all die.
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catman



Joined: 18 Jul 2004

PostPosted: Sat Aug 09, 2014 6:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'll bet that the Americans wouldn't mind having Saddam Hussein back - oops, too late for that.
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trueblue



Joined: 15 Jun 2014
Location: In between the lines

PostPosted: Tue Aug 12, 2014 12:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The U.S. should not have disbanded the Iraq military forces, to begin with...
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trueblue



Joined: 15 Jun 2014
Location: In between the lines

PostPosted: Tue Aug 12, 2014 12:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
It might not be happening NOW, but this whole mess was a long time in the making. Between the export of pop culture and democracy, brutal dictators, and artificial state boundaries set post-WWI, this result was more or less the logical conclusion in the Middle East


This is probably closer to the truth.
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NovaKart



Joined: 18 Nov 2009
Location: Iraq

PostPosted: Tue Aug 12, 2014 2:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Kurdistan is the one stable part of Iraq and the USA and Europe should do what they can to aid the peshmerga.

I know Yazidi and Christians in Iraq and what they're saying is true. There have been some false reports like about fgm and its possible that the reports of decapitated children are false but what ISIS has publicized themselves is frightening enough.
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NovaKart



Joined: 18 Nov 2009
Location: Iraq

PostPosted: Tue Aug 12, 2014 2:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

bucheon bum wrote:
NovaKart wrote:
I'm in Kurdistan which does not have it.


Hope all is ok with you there. I was under the impression that the Kurds had a respectable militia force, but they seem to be having trouble against ISIS.


Yes, thanks. Things are pretty safe where I am. The Kurds are starting to make progress against ISIS now.
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bucheon bum



Joined: 16 Jan 2003
Location: DC area

PostPosted: Tue Aug 12, 2014 6:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Kuros wrote:
Titus wrote:
Speaking of neo-cons, the NYT says they're back and now they're liberals (again, cause they were always leftist internationalist revolutionaries in the style of Lev Bronstein - sorry - Leon Trotsky)

The NYT for some reason does not metion that Kagan's wife is at State Dept. Can't figure out why NYT didn't mention that...

Anyway, the neo-cons never went away. They were never Republicans in the sense that Republicans think of themselves. They are their own messiah.

More:

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/07/06/opinion/sunday/are-neocons-getting-ready-to-ally-with-hillary-clinton.html?_r=0

http://www.unz.com/isteve/theyre-back-of-course-the-neocons-never-actually-went-away/

They're mad at Russia now. Iraq, Iran, Syria, Russia. I find it interesting and at this point funny that the Great Democracy of America can not rid itself of the Kagan clan. Bush + kagan -> Clinton + Kagan -> Bush2 + Kagan -> Obama + Kagan -> HRClinton + Kagan. Who is in charge, anyway?


Hillary has sympathies for the neo-con worldview. There's no conspiracy here. She's just an example of how a bright person can lack wisdom.


Have you read her interview in the Atlantic? I couldn't get beyond the first page. I won't be able to vote for her in 2016 unless the GOP candidate is Ted Cruz or Rubio.
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Titus



Joined: 19 May 2012

PostPosted: Tue Aug 12, 2014 7:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

^ I don't understand her reasoning. The citizens do not want more wars. Though maybe she's in a bubble as the DC/NYC elite do want more wars. I sure hope it isn't electoral gold. Imagine John McCain in a pant-suit. It's as if these people read an Iranian 'Great Satan' speech and thought 'yeahhh, that's a good idea!'
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bucheon bum



Joined: 16 Jan 2003
Location: DC area

PostPosted: Tue Aug 12, 2014 10:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Titus wrote:
Though maybe she's in a bubble as the DC/NYC elite do want more wars. '


It's 100% this and why I cannot vote for her. That bubble means she will do even less than Obama for us non-elites.*

*Yes, I'm giving her an easy-out/excuse for f'ing us all over. If you want to argue the cause for her policy ideas is something else, I probably won't disagree.
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Old Painless



Joined: 01 Jan 2014

PostPosted: Tue Aug 12, 2014 3:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Here's what they're doing to Christians in Mosul. Nice huh?


http://images.catholic.org/media/2014/08/08/14075172271961_700.jpg


http://images.catholic.org/media/2014/08/08/14075170681961_700.jpg



http://images.catholic.org/media/2014/08/08/14075168461961_700.jpg
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Kuros



Joined: 27 Apr 2004

PostPosted: Tue Aug 12, 2014 3:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

bucheon bum wrote:
Kuros wrote:
Titus wrote:
Speaking of neo-cons, the NYT says they're back and now they're liberals (again, cause they were always leftist internationalist revolutionaries in the style of Lev Bronstein - sorry - Leon Trotsky)

The NYT for some reason does not metion that Kagan's wife is at State Dept. Can't figure out why NYT didn't mention that...

Anyway, the neo-cons never went away. They were never Republicans in the sense that Republicans think of themselves. They are their own messiah.

More:

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/07/06/opinion/sunday/are-neocons-getting-ready-to-ally-with-hillary-clinton.html?_r=0

http://www.unz.com/isteve/theyre-back-of-course-the-neocons-never-actually-went-away/

They're mad at Russia now. Iraq, Iran, Syria, Russia. I find it interesting and at this point funny that the Great Democracy of America can not rid itself of the Kagan clan. Bush + kagan -> Clinton + Kagan -> Bush2 + Kagan -> Obama + Kagan -> HRClinton + Kagan. Who is in charge, anyway?


Hillary has sympathies for the neo-con worldview. There's no conspiracy here. She's just an example of how a bright person can lack wisdom.


Have you read her interview in the Atlantic? I couldn't get beyond the first page. I won't be able to vote for her in 2016 unless the GOP candidate is Ted Cruz or Rubio.


I have now. It is horrifying.

http://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2014/08/hillary-clinton-failure-to-help-syrian-rebels-led-to-the-rise-of-isis/375832/3/

Quote:
As the U.S., as a U.S. official, you have to pay attention to anything that threatens Israel directly, or anything in the larger Middle East that arises out of the Palestinian-Israeli situation. That’s just a given.

. . .

More than 1,000 people have been killed in Ukraine on both sides, not counting the [Malaysia Airlines] plane, and yet we do see this enormous international reaction against Israel, and Israel’s right to defend itself, and the way Israel has to defend itself. This reaction is uncalled for and unfair.

JG: What do you think causes this reaction?

HRC: There are a number of factors going into it. You can’t ever discount anti-Semitism, especially with what’s going on in Europe today. There are more demonstrations against Israel by an exponential amount than there are against Russia seizing part of Ukraine and shooting down a civilian airliner. So there’s something else at work here than what you see on TV.

And what you see on TV is so effectively stage-managed by Hamas, and always has been. What you see is largely what Hamas invites and permits Western journalists to report on from Gaza. It’s the old PR problem that Israel has. Yes, there are substantive, deep levels of antagonism or anti-Semitism towards Israel, because it’s a powerful state, a really effective military. And Hamas paints itself as the defender of the rights of the Palestinians to have their own state. So the PR battle is one that is historically tilted against Israel.


Hillary sports a kind of victim mentality, but she's afflicted by privilege. Her foreign policy mindset reflects this. Furthermore, she seems to like to personalize nations and peoples. I'm surprised she did so well as Secretary of State, and frankly, I might very well give up hope on this country if we elect her as President. It'll be Bush's kid, Clinton's wife, and then the gay authoritarian descendant of Martin Van Buren.
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Titus



Joined: 19 May 2012

PostPosted: Tue Aug 12, 2014 5:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

She says:

Quote:
There are a number of factors going into it. You can’t ever discount anti-Semitism, especially with what’s going on in Europe today.


I hear:

Quote:
I want Jewish oligarchs to finance my campaign and the Jewish media to propagandize the population for my benefit.


This line "what's going on in Europe today" is amusing to me, in light of this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wxSJ7FWj4ns

They wanted to "be the center of it", with "it" being the importation of millions of aliens into Europe. They are. Suck it the fk up.
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Titus



Joined: 19 May 2012

PostPosted: Tue Aug 12, 2014 5:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I guess it is also worth mentioning that the Americans created ISIS, both deliberately with Israel (as Wikileaks shows) and by supporting the Vetted Opposition in Syria, which is what HRC is pissing and moaning about. More support for the Vetted Opposition in Syria means a commensurately stronger ISIS. I can not stand that woman. Why must America be saddled with these cockroaches election cycle after cycle after cycle...
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Leon



Joined: 31 May 2010

PostPosted: Tue Aug 12, 2014 6:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Titus wrote:
I guess it is also worth mentioning that the Americans created ISIS, both deliberately with Israel (as Wikileaks shows) and by supporting the Vetted Opposition in Syria, which is what HRC is pissing and moaning about. More support for the Vetted Opposition in Syria means a commensurately stronger ISIS. I can not stand that woman. Why must America be saddled with these cockroaches election cycle after cycle after cycle...


Not saying that I don't believe you, it is certainly in the realm of possibility, but which wikileak document? Also, is there proof that American support in Syria has gone to Isis in a meaningful way? I saw the whole Isis was created by Jews/Americans, even Isis is Jewish, theory in comment sections from Pakistani media, but had assumed it was bias/paranoia on their part.

The hrc interview filled me with fear and loathing. I would love a strong primary that challenged her from a rational foreign policy perspective but am not hopeful.
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