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America's Cult of Ignorance
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Leon



Joined: 31 May 2010

PostPosted: Sun Jun 22, 2014 7:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Steelrails wrote:
Leon wrote:
trueblue wrote:
Quote:
To point out the obvious, Singapore and Hong Kong are a small city state, and many U.S. Cities are bigger than Taiwan and South Korea. Some American states score at the top of the tests, like Massachusetts. Some of the states, like Mississippi or Alabama drag down the American scores, as do the relatively much larger number of recent immigrants who do not have English as a first language.



..along with ethnicities.

A challenge the United States faces, is that it is not a homogenous nation, such as Sweden and South Korea. Different values, different cultures, different ideologies....


China is a homogenous nation, and has the same problems in terms of disparity in its provinces in terms of education. I think (not 100% sure) that India is significantly more homogenous than American and has lots of disparity in educational results. Larger countries will have more disparities, ceteris paribus.


China and India ARE NOT homogenous nations. Just because one has a bunch of people who all have slanted eyes (and we're not even getting to the Uighurs) and the other has people who all have brown skin does not make them homogenous culturally or ethnically.


Don't be silly. China is very homogenous- it is about 92% Han. There are ethnic enclaves of Koreans, Tibetans, Turkic people, but for the most part these groups are concentrated. India is more ethnically homogenous than America by a wide margin, although I am unsure about that culturally.
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KimchiNinja



Joined: 01 May 2012
Location: Gangnam

PostPosted: Sun Jun 22, 2014 2:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

atwood wrote:

Dude, you claimed the U.S. is, in your words, "dumbed down." Yet you can't write a post that is grammatically correct.


One of the few Atwood posts I enjoyed!! Smile

Most Americans can't do basic math, nor can they write a simple sentence (starting with a capital letter, ending with a period, and having proper grammar and punctuation in-between).
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KimchiNinja



Joined: 01 May 2012
Location: Gangnam

PostPosted: Sun Jun 22, 2014 2:41 pm    Post subject: Re: America's Cult of Ignorance Reply with quote

Titus wrote:
If one compares apples to apples, the US education system does pretty well:
http://isteve.blogspot.com/2013/12/pisa-racial-results-for-americans-on.html


Titus makes a good point. Race and intelligence are related (although nobody wants to admit that). And the USA is composed of many different races. If you break the USA into racial buckets, and compare scores you might get a more clear view of what's happening. That said, while the data presented above does seem reasonable, I'd like to see it from a source other than some dude's blog!!

Not to diminish the above point, because it's a good point. But the original article is not just about test scores, but about an attitude of being "proud of one's ignorance". Oddly, even smart educated people can carry around this weird attitude of being proud to say stupid things. It's part of the culture there.
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Kuros



Joined: 27 Apr 2004

PostPosted: Sun Jun 22, 2014 3:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Steelrails wrote:
Leon wrote:
trueblue wrote:
Quote:
To point out the obvious, Singapore and Hong Kong are a small city state, and many U.S. Cities are bigger than Taiwan and South Korea. Some American states score at the top of the tests, like Massachusetts. Some of the states, like Mississippi or Alabama drag down the American scores, as do the relatively much larger number of recent immigrants who do not have English as a first language.



..along with ethnicities.

A challenge the United States faces, is that it is not a homogenous nation, such as Sweden and South Korea. Different values, different cultures, different ideologies....


China is a homogenous nation, and has the same problems in terms of disparity in its provinces in terms of education. I think (not 100% sure) that India is significantly more homogenous than American and has lots of disparity in educational results. Larger countries will have more disparities, ceteris paribus.


China and India ARE NOT homogenous nations. Just because one has a bunch of people who all have slanted eyes (and we're not even getting to the Uighurs) and the other has people who all have brown skin does not make them homogenous culturally or ethnically.


China is 92% Han. That's fairly homogeneous. Homogeneous enough that I view your dig at Leon as unnecessary and uncharitable.
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Fox



Joined: 04 Mar 2009

PostPosted: Sun Jun 22, 2014 3:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

By contrast, India is neither ethnically, nor culturally, nor even linguistically homogenous. India seems to me to substantially less homogenous than the United States of America.
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Leon



Joined: 31 May 2010

PostPosted: Sun Jun 22, 2014 3:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Fox wrote:
By contrast, India is neither ethnically, nor culturally, nor even linguistically homogenous. India seems to me to substantially less homogenous than the United States of America.


I wasn't sure about that one. I started to doubt it after I wrote it. I used Hindu as an approximation of ethnic group, which accounts for about 80% of the pop. but perhaps that was not appropriate. Anyways, I think my original point was correct, even if I was wrong about India-which I indicated I might have been in my original post.
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atwood



Joined: 26 Dec 2009

PostPosted: Sun Jun 22, 2014 5:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Kuros wrote:
Steelrails wrote:
Leon wrote:
trueblue wrote:
Quote:
To point out the obvious, Singapore and Hong Kong are a small city state, and many U.S. Cities are bigger than Taiwan and South Korea. Some American states score at the top of the tests, like Massachusetts. Some of the states, like Mississippi or Alabama drag down the American scores, as do the relatively much larger number of recent immigrants who do not have English as a first language.



..along with ethnicities.

A challenge the United States faces, is that it is not a homogenous nation, such as Sweden and South Korea. Different values, different cultures, different ideologies....


China is a homogenous nation, and has the same problems in terms of disparity in its provinces in terms of education. I think (not 100% sure) that India is significantly more homogenous than American and has lots of disparity in educational results. Larger countries will have more disparities, ceteris paribus.


China and India ARE NOT homogenous nations. Just because one has a bunch of people who all have slanted eyes (and we're not even getting to the Uighurs) and the other has people who all have brown skin does not make them homogenous culturally or ethnically.


China is 92% Han. That's fairly homogeneous. Homogeneous enough that I view your dig at Leon as unnecessary and uncharitable.

I agree that little g shouldn't have thrown the race card, but China is not a homogeneous society. Look at all the Uighur terrorism and the problems in Tibet.

Eight percent may not sound like much, but eight percent of 1.35 billion is a considerable amount of people.
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Leon



Joined: 31 May 2010

PostPosted: Sun Jun 22, 2014 6:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

atwood wrote:
Kuros wrote:
Steelrails wrote:
Leon wrote:
trueblue wrote:
Quote:
To point out the obvious, Singapore and Hong Kong are a small city state, and many U.S. Cities are bigger than Taiwan and South Korea. Some American states score at the top of the tests, like Massachusetts. Some of the states, like Mississippi or Alabama drag down the American scores, as do the relatively much larger number of recent immigrants who do not have English as a first language.



..along with ethnicities.

A challenge the United States faces, is that it is not a homogenous nation, such as Sweden and South Korea. Different values, different cultures, different ideologies....


China is a homogenous nation, and has the same problems in terms of disparity in its provinces in terms of education. I think (not 100% sure) that India is significantly more homogenous than American and has lots of disparity in educational results. Larger countries will have more disparities, ceteris paribus.


China and India ARE NOT homogenous nations. Just because one has a bunch of people who all have slanted eyes (and we're not even getting to the Uighurs) and the other has people who all have brown skin does not make them homogenous culturally or ethnically.


China is 92% Han. That's fairly homogeneous. Homogeneous enough that I view your dig at Leon as unnecessary and uncharitable.

I agree that little g shouldn't have thrown the race card, but China is not a homogeneous society. Look at all the Uighur terrorism and the problems in Tibet.

Eight percent may not sound like much, but eight percent of 1.35 billion is a considerable amount of people.


Except that Tibet is one separate area, the Turkic area is a separate area, and the ethnic koreans are in their own area with little mixing.
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atwood



Joined: 26 Dec 2009

PostPosted: Sun Jun 22, 2014 6:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Leon wrote:
atwood wrote:
Kuros wrote:
Steelrails wrote:
Leon wrote:
trueblue wrote:
Quote:
To point out the obvious, Singapore and Hong Kong are a small city state, and many U.S. Cities are bigger than Taiwan and South Korea. Some American states score at the top of the tests, like Massachusetts. Some of the states, like Mississippi or Alabama drag down the American scores, as do the relatively much larger number of recent immigrants who do not have English as a first language.



..along with ethnicities.

A challenge the United States faces, is that it is not a homogenous nation, such as Sweden and South Korea. Different values, different cultures, different ideologies....


China is a homogenous nation, and has the same problems in terms of disparity in its provinces in terms of education. I think (not 100% sure) that India is significantly more homogenous than American and has lots of disparity in educational results. Larger countries will have more disparities, ceteris paribus.


China and India ARE NOT homogenous nations. Just because one has a bunch of people who all have slanted eyes (and we're not even getting to the Uighurs) and the other has people who all have brown skin does not make them homogenous culturally or ethnically.


China is 92% Han. That's fairly homogeneous. Homogeneous enough that I view your dig at Leon as unnecessary and uncharitable.

I agree that little g shouldn't have thrown the race card, but China is not a homogeneous society. Look at all the Uighur terrorism and the problems in Tibet.

Eight percent may not sound like much, but eight percent of 1.35 billion is a considerable amount of people.


Except that Tibet is one separate area, the Turkic area is a separate area, and the ethnic koreans are in their own area with little mixing.

Since the Chinese government has been populating those areas with Hans, those areas aren't all that separate.

If you want to say that China has a homogeneous ruling class and elite, etc. fine, but otherwise I'd disagree.
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RangerMcGreggor



Joined: 12 Jan 2011
Location: Somewhere in Korea

PostPosted: Sun Jun 22, 2014 6:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

"Han Chinese" is an incredibly broad term that refers to several ethnic groups and tribes. Hakkas have a distinct dialect and culture from Cantonese Chinese which are different from the Tanka and so forth. Saying Chinese is homogeneous because they are "92% Han" is like saying the Middle East is homogeneous because they are all Arab
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Leon



Joined: 31 May 2010

PostPosted: Sun Jun 22, 2014 6:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

atwood wrote:
Leon wrote:
atwood wrote:
Kuros wrote:
Steelrails wrote:
Leon wrote:
trueblue wrote:
Quote:
To point out the obvious, Singapore and Hong Kong are a small city state, and many U.S. Cities are bigger than Taiwan and South Korea. Some American states score at the top of the tests, like Massachusetts. Some of the states, like Mississippi or Alabama drag down the American scores, as do the relatively much larger number of recent immigrants who do not have English as a first language.



..along with ethnicities.

A challenge the United States faces, is that it is not a homogenous nation, such as Sweden and South Korea. Different values, different cultures, different ideologies....


China is a homogenous nation, and has the same problems in terms of disparity in its provinces in terms of education. I think (not 100% sure) that India is significantly more homogenous than American and has lots of disparity in educational results. Larger countries will have more disparities, ceteris paribus.


China and India ARE NOT homogenous nations. Just because one has a bunch of people who all have slanted eyes (and we're not even getting to the Uighurs) and the other has people who all have brown skin does not make them homogenous culturally or ethnically.


China is 92% Han. That's fairly homogeneous. Homogeneous enough that I view your dig at Leon as unnecessary and uncharitable.

I agree that little g shouldn't have thrown the race card, but China is not a homogeneous society. Look at all the Uighur terrorism and the problems in Tibet.

Eight percent may not sound like much, but eight percent of 1.35 billion is a considerable amount of people.


Except that Tibet is one separate area, the Turkic area is a separate area, and the ethnic koreans are in their own area with little mixing.

Since the Chinese government has been populating those areas with Hans, those areas aren't all that separate.

If you want to say that China has a homogeneous ruling class and elite, etc. fine, but otherwise I'd disagree.


You can disagree, but what standard are you using that 8% is considered diverse? Also, sure Han Chinese are coming in, but how many Tibetans, Koreans and Turkic people are going out of their own areas? China is homogeneous unless you use Korea or Japan as the bar.
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atwood



Joined: 26 Dec 2009

PostPosted: Sun Jun 22, 2014 7:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Leon wrote:
atwood wrote:
Leon wrote:
atwood wrote:
Kuros wrote:
Steelrails wrote:
Leon wrote:
trueblue wrote:
Quote:
To point out the obvious, Singapore and Hong Kong are a small city state, and many U.S. Cities are bigger than Taiwan and South Korea. Some American states score at the top of the tests, like Massachusetts. Some of the states, like Mississippi or Alabama drag down the American scores, as do the relatively much larger number of recent immigrants who do not have English as a first language.



..along with ethnicities.

A challenge the United States faces, is that it is not a homogenous nation, such as Sweden and South Korea. Different values, different cultures, different ideologies....


China is a homogenous nation, and has the same problems in terms of disparity in its provinces in terms of education. I think (not 100% sure) that India is significantly more homogenous than American and has lots of disparity in educational results. Larger countries will have more disparities, ceteris paribus.


China and India ARE NOT homogenous nations. Just because one has a bunch of people who all have slanted eyes (and we're not even getting to the Uighurs) and the other has people who all have brown skin does not make them homogenous culturally or ethnically.


China is 92% Han. That's fairly homogeneous. Homogeneous enough that I view your dig at Leon as unnecessary and uncharitable.

I agree that little g shouldn't have thrown the race card, but China is not a homogeneous society. Look at all the Uighur terrorism and the problems in Tibet.

Eight percent may not sound like much, but eight percent of 1.35 billion is a considerable amount of people.


Except that Tibet is one separate area, the Turkic area is a separate area, and the ethnic koreans are in their own area with little mixing.

Since the Chinese government has been populating those areas with Hans, those areas aren't all that separate.

If you want to say that China has a homogeneous ruling class and elite, etc. fine, but otherwise I'd disagree.


You can disagree, but what standard are you using that 8% is considered diverse? Also, sure Han Chinese are coming in, but how many Tibetans, Koreans and Turkic people are going out of their own areas? China is homogeneous unless you use Korea or Japan as the bar.

Common sense is standard enough. You're talking 100 million people of different ethnicities, plus you've got great divides in the Han themselves, who often speak different languages or dialects. Don't forget to add diverse religions as well.
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Leon



Joined: 31 May 2010

PostPosted: Sun Jun 22, 2014 7:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

atwood wrote:

You can disagree, but what standard are you using that 8% is considered diverse? Also, sure Han Chinese are coming in, but how many Tibetans, Koreans and Turkic people are going out of their own areas? China is homogeneous unless you use Korea or Japan as the bar.

Common sense is standard enough. You're talking 100 million people of different ethnicities, plus you've got great divides in the Han themselves, who often speak different languages or dialects. Don't forget to add diverse religions as well.[/quote]

The standard of the thread is America. China is much much more homogenous than America. That was my original point. China is much more homogenous than most countries in the world. Despite this homogeneity, education results and economic results vary widely.
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atwood



Joined: 26 Dec 2009

PostPosted: Sun Jun 22, 2014 9:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Leon wrote:
atwood wrote:

You can disagree, but what standard are you using that 8% is considered diverse? Also, sure Han Chinese are coming in, but how many Tibetans, Koreans and Turkic people are going out of their own areas? China is homogeneous unless you use Korea or Japan as the bar.

Common sense is standard enough. You're talking 100 million people of different ethnicities, plus you've got great divides in the Han themselves, who often speak different languages or dialects. Don't forget to add diverse religions as well.


The standard of the thread is America. China is much much more homogenous than America. That was my original point. China is much more homogenous than most countries in the world. Despite this homogeneity, education results and economic results vary widely.[/quote]
You should have just said that.

But if the standard of the thread is America, then why do you compare China to the rest of the world and make a statement--"much more homogenous than most countries" that I doubt you can prove?
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RangerMcGreggor



Joined: 12 Jan 2011
Location: Somewhere in Korea

PostPosted: Mon Jun 23, 2014 12:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Leon wrote:

The standard of the thread is America. China is much much more homogenous than America. That was my original point. China is much more homogenous than most countries in the world. Despite this homogeneity, education results and economic results vary widely.


Except this isn't true at all. As mentioned before, while 92% of China is Han, "Han" is in itself a giant ethnic group with different tribes, cultures and languages. Han is more comparable to Germanic or Slavic (a major group that companies a wide range of people) than Korean or Japanese (A very homogenius group).
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