|
Korean Job Discussion Forums
"The Internet's Meeting Place for ESL/EFL Teachers from Around the World!"
|
| View previous topic :: View next topic |
| Author |
Message |
Leon
Joined: 31 May 2010
|
 Posted: Mon Jun 23, 2014 3:04 am Post subject: |
 |
|
| atwood wrote: |
| Leon wrote: |
| atwood wrote: |
You can disagree, but what standard are you using that 8% is considered diverse? Also, sure Han Chinese are coming in, but how many Tibetans, Koreans and Turkic people are going out of their own areas? China is homogeneous unless you use Korea or Japan as the bar. |
Common sense is standard enough. You're talking 100 million people of different ethnicities, plus you've got great divides in the Han themselves, who often speak different languages or dialects. Don't forget to add diverse religions as well. |
The standard of the thread is America. China is much much more homogenous than America. That was my original point. China is much more homogenous than most countries in the world. Despite this homogeneity, education results and economic results vary widely. |
You should have just said that.
But if the standard of the thread is America, then why do you compare China to the rest of the world and make a statement--"much more homogenous than most countries" that I doubt you can prove?[/quote]
Why don't you prove me wrong instead. Outside of East Asia and microstates, what are some of these countries that are much less diverse than China? |
|
| Back to top |
|
 |
atwood
Joined: 26 Dec 2009
|
| Posted: Mon Jun 23, 2014 3:56 am Post subject: |
|
|
| Leon wrote: |
| atwood wrote: |
| Leon wrote: |
| atwood wrote: |
You can disagree, but what standard are you using that 8% is considered diverse? Also, sure Han Chinese are coming in, but how many Tibetans, Koreans and Turkic people are going out of their own areas? China is homogeneous unless you use Korea or Japan as the bar. |
Common sense is standard enough. You're talking 100 million people of different ethnicities, plus you've got great divides in the Han themselves, who often speak different languages or dialects. Don't forget to add diverse religions as well. |
The standard of the thread is America. China is much much more homogenous than America. That was my original point. China is much more homogenous than most countries in the world. Despite this homogeneity, education results and economic results vary widely. |
You should have just said that.
But if the standard of the thread is America, then why do you compare China to the rest of the world and make a statement--"much more homogenous than most countries" that I doubt you can prove? |
Why don't you prove me wrong instead. Outside of East Asia and microstates, what are some of these countries that are much less diverse than China?[/quote]
Try most of northern Europe for a starter. What about Middle Eastern countries?
And why must you always load your statements--"much less diverse." Wouldn't less diverse prove the point?
But you were the one who made the original statement, so the onus is on you to prove it. Although it seems you seem to be deadset on single-handedly demonstrating the dumbing down of America. And doing a damn fine job of it. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Fox
Joined: 04 Mar 2009
|
| Posted: Mon Jun 23, 2014 4:05 am Post subject: |
|
|
According to James Fearon, North Korea is the least ethnically diverse country in the world, followed by South Korea and then Japan. China is the 22nd least ethnically diverse country in the world. Portugal, Poland, Greece, the Netherlands, Germany, Norway, Austria, Denmark, Finland, and Australia are countries of note which are less diverse than China. Most of the countries in the world are more ethnically diverse than China. China is more culturally diverse than ethnically diverse, but is still less culturally diverse than the global average. Interpret this however you like.
Side note: according to this data, India is the 17th most ethnically diverse country in the world, and it is also the 6th most culturally diverse country in the world. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Leon
Joined: 31 May 2010
|
| Posted: Mon Jun 23, 2014 4:23 am Post subject: |
|
|
| Fox wrote: |
According to James Fearon, North Korea is the least ethnically diverse country in the world, followed by South Korea and then Japan. China is the 22nd least ethnically diverse country in the world. Portugal, Poland, Greece, the Netherlands, Germany, Norway, Austria, Denmark, Finland, and Australia are countries of note which are less diverse than China. Most of the countries in the world are more ethnically diverse than China. China is more culturally diverse than ethnically diverse, but is still less culturally diverse than the global average. Interpret this however you like.
Side note: according to this data, India is the 17th most ethnically diverse country in the world, and it is also the 6th most culturally diverse country in the world. |
Thanks for this. It looks like I was really wrong about India. I don't think I believe this analysis, or if it is true, it is fundamentally flawed. Australia is much more diverse than China, but in the page you listed, it is two spots up. Also, this is from 2003, there has been an increase in immigration to European countries. I looked up Italy, for example, and it gives it as 92% Italian- the same figure for the Han in China. Also, for Germany, the figure I found was that 80% of the pop. had a non migrant background, and so on and so forth. (all figures from wikipedias 'demographics of___' pages)
| Quote: |
| According to the Australian Bureau of Statistics, in mid-2011 there were 6,018,180 residents who were born outside Australia, representing 27% of the total population |
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_Australia
I've lived in Australia, and it is a very diverse place with a huge number of foreign students and permanent residents.
As for North Korea, I totally believe that, and it is tragic how they maintain it. If a woman becomes pregnant while she was in China, the baby is killed upon birth.
| Quote: |
The North's delegation leader Maj. Gen. Kim Yong-chul started off an unfortunate thread by quipping, "Since the climate in the South is warmer, the farmers must be hard at work." His South Korean counterpart Maj. Gen. Han Min-gu of the South replied, "The population of the farming communities is actually falling, and many bachelors from such areas marry women from Mongolia, Vietnam and the Philippines."
Kim reportedly grimaced and snapped, ��Our nation has always considered its pure lineage to be of great importance -- I am concerned that our singularity will disappear.�� Instead of contradicting him, the South Korean delegation said such dilution of the bloodline was ��but a drop of ink in the Han River,�� adding this would cause no problems ��if we all live together." But this failed to mollify the North Korean. "Since time immemorial, our nation has been a land of abundant beauty. Not even one drop of ink must be allowed to fall into the Han River,�� Kim thundered. |
http://english.chosun.com/site/data/html_dir/2006/05/17/2006051761016.html |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Steelrails
Joined: 12 Mar 2009
Location: Earth, Solar System
|
| Posted: Mon Jun 23, 2014 4:29 am Post subject: |
|
|
It's a rare feat that puts me and atwood on the same side of an argument.
Leon you had a point to make, you just chose two really bad examples.
The fact is that most nations are not homogenous because their borders still retain influence of being established through kingdoms who historically didn't care much about ethnicity of its subjects, more so vassalage. Heck, many monarchs were foreigners themselves. Combine that with colonial borders and remnants of those and its not surprising that homogeneity is the exception, rather than the rule.
| Quote: |
| Portugal, Poland, Greece, the Netherlands, Germany, Norway, Austria, Denmark, Finland, and Australia are countries of note which are less diverse than China. |
I found it interesting that in that list, Italy was ranked so low. Immediately the terms "Sardinian, Sicilian, and Neapolitan" came to mind, as well as the trace German elements in the North, and Franco-Occitan-Provencal elements to the northwest. The Northern League faction in Italy has sought the secession of the northern provinces from the south of Italy, considering itself separate culturally. The more extreme elements of the movement tend to do things like bring up racialist themes.
| Quote: |
| As for North Korea, I totally believe that, and it is tragic how they maintain it. If a woman becomes pregnant while she was in China, the baby is killed upon birth. |
I take any claim of North Korean activity with a grain of salt. For one thing, the international media really loves to play up any tale of woe or exoticism from Africa/Asia/The Middle East and declare them trends or policies. One day its Japanese people liking eyeballs, the next its KJE's uncle being fed to the dogs.
Also, even if North Korea claims to do so, often this is some sort of propaganda smokescreen, either meant for international or domestic consumption. North Korea also claims that it Kim Jong Il shot a hole in one the first time he ever played golf, that it is just minutes away from bathing Seoul in a sea of fire and chasing the Imperialist lap dogs all the way to Busan.
I have no evidence, but I get the strong feeling that there are plenty of Korean-Chinese babies around the border, that is porous thanks to bribes going into Nork and Chinese soldiers and officials, and this kind of thing is used as an excuse for power plays and to get rid of "undesirable elements". And probably half the time the baby isn't even Chinese. It's just an excuse.
Last edited by Steelrails on Mon Jun 23, 2014 4:39 am; edited 1 time in total |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Fox
Joined: 04 Mar 2009
|
| Posted: Mon Jun 23, 2014 4:30 am Post subject: |
|
|
| Leon wrote: |
| I don't think I believe this analysis, or if it is true, it is fundamentally flawed. |
If you feel that either this fellow's study got something wrong (you can read it here) or that the situation has changed since then, that's up to you. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Leon
Joined: 31 May 2010
|
| Posted: Mon Jun 23, 2014 4:40 am Post subject: |
|
|
| Steelrails wrote: |
It's a rare feat that puts me and atwood on the same side of an argument.
Leon you had a point to make, you just chose two really bad examples.
The fact is that most nations are not homogenous because their borders still retain influence of being established through kingdoms who historically didn't care much about ethnicity of its subjects, more so vassalage. Heck, many monarchs were foreigners themselves. Combine that with colonial borders and remnants of those and its not surprising that homogeneity is the exception, rather than the rule.
| Quote: |
| Portugal, Poland, Greece, the Netherlands, Germany, Norway, Austria, Denmark, Finland, and Australia are countries of note which are less diverse than China. |
I found it interesting that in that list, Italy was ranked so low. Immediately the terms "Sardinian, Sicilian, and Neapolitan" came to mind, as well as the trace German elements in the North, and Franco-Occitan-Provencal elements to the northwest. The Northern League faction in Italy has sought the secession of the northern provinces from the south of Italy, considering itself separate culturally. The more extreme elements of the movement tend to do things like bring up racialist themes. |
Well, we will just have to agree to disagree then. I was wrong about India, China, I still believe I am mostly correct about. The list that Fox gave that put Australia as more homogenous than China shouldn't be taken seriously. Australia is one of the most diverse places I've ever been, with Asians slowly taking over the continent. Australia's own government puts foreign born residents at over 27% of the pop. One of Australia's biggest industries is educating foreigners.
| Quote: |
The international education sector is important not only to Australian society, but also the country’s economy. International education activity contributed $16.3 billion in export income to the Australian economy in 2010–11. (Endnote 1) Furthermore, many educational institutions rely on the income from full-fee paying international students to assist in the provision of quality education to all students, both international and domestic.
In 2009, over one in five (22%) tertiary students studying in Australia were international students. (Endnote 2) While the size of the international student population is considerable both in tertiary and other sectors, Australia’s international education sector is undergoing a period of change. This change is driven by adjustments to Australia’s migration policy, as well as changing perceptions of the Australian education market, the increased value of the Australian dollar, and the growth of Australia’s overseas competitors. |
Anyways, I think we've derailed the thread enough with this. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Kuros
Joined: 27 Apr 2004
|
| Posted: Mon Jun 23, 2014 3:55 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| RangerMcGreggor wrote: |
| "Han Chinese" is an incredibly broad term that refers to several ethnic groups and tribes. Hakkas have a distinct dialect and culture from Cantonese Chinese which are different from the Tanka and so forth. |
Excellent points. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
On the other hand
Joined: 19 Apr 2003
Location: I walk along the avenue
|
| Posted: Mon Jun 23, 2014 4:19 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Steelrails wrote:
| Quote: |
Quote:
As for North Korea, I totally believe that, and it is tragic how they maintain it. If a woman becomes pregnant while she was in China, the baby is killed upon birth.
I take any claim of North Korean activity with a grain of salt. For one thing, the international media really loves to play up any tale of woe or exoticism from Africa/Asia/The Middle East and declare them trends or policies. One day its Japanese people liking eyeballs, the next its KJE's uncle being fed to the dogs.
|
I remember when those allegations of forced infanticide of Chinese/Korean babies were being circulated in the media. I tried to find an original source, and as far as I could tell, it was based on one story from a North Korean defector, publicized by Christian missionaries. So, not the most credible channels of information.
I know North Korea officially subscribes to an ideology of racial supremacism, but I would be dubious about them pursuing an anti-Chinese eugenics policy on a wide scale. I doubt the sugar-daddies in Beijing would be too happy to hear about that, even if the policy were strictly for domestic consumption. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Leon
Joined: 31 May 2010
|
| Posted: Mon Jun 23, 2014 5:10 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| On the other hand wrote: |
Steelrails wrote:
| Quote: |
Quote:
As for North Korea, I totally believe that, and it is tragic how they maintain it. If a woman becomes pregnant while she was in China, the baby is killed upon birth.
I take any claim of North Korean activity with a grain of salt. For one thing, the international media really loves to play up any tale of woe or exoticism from Africa/Asia/The Middle East and declare them trends or policies. One day its Japanese people liking eyeballs, the next its KJE's uncle being fed to the dogs.
|
I remember when those allegations of forced infanticide of Chinese/Korean babies were being circulated in the media. I tried to find an original source, and as far as I could tell, it was based on one story from a North Korean defector, publicized by Christian missionaries. So, not the most credible channels of information.
I know North Korea officially subscribes to an ideology of racial supremacism, but I would be dubious about them pursuing an anti-Chinese eugenics policy on a wide scale. I doubt the sugar-daddies in Beijing would be too happy to hear about that, even if the policy were strictly for domestic consumption. |
There have been various defectors who have said the same thing. It is talked about in this book, http://www.amazon.com/The-Aquariums-Pyongyang-Years-Korean/dp/0465011047
Also refered to here: http://www.nytimes.com/2002/06/10/world/n-koreans-talk-of-baby-killings.html
Also referred to here: http://www.hrnk.org/uploads/pdfs/HRNK_HiddenGulag2_Web_5-18.pdf
Also referred to in the UN Report:
http://www.ohchr.org/en/hrbodies/hrc/coidprk/pages/commissioninquiryonhrindprk.aspx
Either many defectors are lying, or its not true. I don't see why, compared to the other things that happen in the North, this would be hard to believe. Of course there are probably some mixed babies at the border, before Kim Jong Un it was not as difficult to get across, and at different times there have been different levels of enforcement for those crossing.
As to not offending China, seriously, North Korea doesn't really care. Also, China probably wouldn't be that happy that this is happening, but it would go along with their whole non-interference in domestic affairs things.
North Korea has a long history of ignoring China or offending it. After the uncle was killed, Kim was called to come to Beijing, which was ignored, the third nuclear test occurred on a Chinese holiday after China warned North Korea to not do it. When the Uncle was killed, North Korea was pretty open on part of it being because of the trades the Uncle had going on with China. This is pretty much how the DPRK-PRC relationship has gone for a long time. China puts up with it because they do not want an American ally on their border, or the chaos of a collapsing DPRK. North Korea knows this and takes advantage of it. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Steelrails
Joined: 12 Mar 2009
Location: Earth, Solar System
|
| Posted: Mon Jun 23, 2014 5:42 pm Post subject: |
|
|
From what I understand, at least according to the NYTimes article, those are carried out in prison/gulags, where there is a general prohibition on pregnancy.
Defector claims should always be taken with a grain of salt. Those fleeing oppressive regimes often "give their rescuer what they want", which is often horrible stories of the other side and the like. It's a conditioned reflex. Take for example the recent revelation of that anti-sex slavery crusader who was found to have made up most of her story that the media gobbled up.
Not saying brutality doesn't happen over there or that some of these "wild" claims aren't true, just that we shouldn't reflexively accept it at face value and declare it widespread policy.
I have a feeling that the defector who said "things weren't so bad over there, but I escaped so I could become rich" didn't get much attention, though I'm pretty sure a guy or three has defected for that reason. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Leon
Joined: 31 May 2010
|
| Posted: Mon Jun 23, 2014 6:13 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Steelrails wrote: |
From what I understand, at least according to the NYTimes article, those are carried out in prison/gulags, where there is a general prohibition on pregnancy.
Defector claims should always be taken with a grain of salt. Those fleeing oppressive regimes often "give their rescuer what they want", which is often horrible stories of the other side and the like. It's a conditioned reflex. Take for example the recent revelation of that anti-sex slavery crusader who was found to have made up most of her story that the media gobbled up.
Not saying brutality doesn't happen over there or that some of these "wild" claims aren't true, just that we shouldn't reflexively accept it at face value and declare it widespread policy.
I have a feeling that the defector who said "things weren't so bad over there, but I escaped so I could become rich" didn't get much attention, though I'm pretty sure a guy or three has defected for that reason. |
Guess where you go if you are caught leaving the country... Your first objection might mean a lot less than you realize.
Claims from a single defector should/usually are taken with a grain of salt, but there have been enough defectors that it is usually possible to come up with what is reasonable/unreasonable. Also, considering all that is known about how North Korea views racial purity, this makes sense.(http://nwww.koreaherald.com/view.php?ud=20140512001512, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Cleanest_Race, etc.)
The thing is that the more you know about North Korea, certain things have a logic that fits the regime/country, and other things don't. The are stories about North Korea that 'allegedly' made up by the KCIA (which probably does happen) such as Kim Jong Un's wife was sleeping with the uncle or a porn star or etc. This is a good post about how to tell if a North Korea story is real or not. http://freekorea.us/2014/01/26/five-ways-to-spot-a-bullsht-story-about-north-korea/
The last point, people who leave to become rich usually return to North Korea-sounds weird, but it can be lucrative being a trader in North Korea. Several defectors almost fit that description- except they didn't leave to become rich but because something happened and they were about to get in trouble for some reason. These people tend to make better defectors in terms of sources because they are better educated and tend to have a better understanding of how things operate at the top. Several of the defectors describe a pretty good lifestyle for themselves. Also, one of the more famous people-not quite a defector but kind of is- is Kim Jong Il's former Japanese chef, whose lifestyle sounded incredible, but definitely unstable in terms of there always being the chance of making a mistake and being killed or sent to a camp. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Konglishman
Joined: 14 Sep 2007
Location: Nanjing
|
| Posted: Thu Jun 26, 2014 8:59 pm Post subject: |
|
|
I absolutely agree with you on this one, Steelrails. Plus, one has to consider the diversity of languages and dialects too. And of course, there is religion too which can certainly vary quite a bit especially and more so in India. Indeed, it really is ignorant to say that China and India are homogenous countries as if we were talking about South Korea.
| Steelrails wrote: |
| Leon wrote: |
| trueblue wrote: |
| Quote: |
| To point out the obvious, Singapore and Hong Kong are a small city state, and many U.S. Cities are bigger than Taiwan and South Korea. Some American states score at the top of the tests, like Massachusetts. Some of the states, like Mississippi or Alabama drag down the American scores, as do the relatively much larger number of recent immigrants who do not have English as a first language. |
..along with ethnicities.
A challenge the United States faces, is that it is not a homogenous nation, such as Sweden and South Korea. Different values, different cultures, different ideologies.... |
China is a homogenous nation, and has the same problems in terms of disparity in its provinces in terms of education. I think (not 100% sure) that India is significantly more homogenous than American and has lots of disparity in educational results. Larger countries will have more disparities, ceteris paribus. |
China and India ARE NOT homogenous nations. Just because one has a bunch of people who all have slanted eyes (and we're not even getting to the Uighurs) and the other has people who all have brown skin does not make them homogenous culturally or ethnically. |
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Chaparrastique
Joined: 01 Jan 2014
|
| Posted: Thu Jun 26, 2014 9:11 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Leon wrote: |
| but it can be lucrative being a trader in North Korea. Several defectors almost fit that description- except they didn't leave to become rich but because something happened and they were about to get in trouble for some reason.. |
absolutely, a lucky few are able to set up a good life in north korea and are willing to return there.
But they are certainly not the majority.
If you are born and raised under a certain regime, obviously you are going to know how to survive in it, no matter how dangerous it may be by comparison to others. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Privateer
Joined: 31 Aug 2005
Location: Easy Street.
|
| Posted: Sat Jun 28, 2014 1:53 am Post subject: |
|
|
| Who among the teachers here can honestly say they have not been impressed by the level of ignorance shown by their Korean students? |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
|
|
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
|
|
FAQ
Search
Memberlist
Usergroups
Register
Profile
Log in to check your private messages
Log in
