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America's Cult of Ignorance
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trueblue



Joined: 15 Jun 2014
Location: In between the lines

PostPosted: Thu Jul 03, 2014 3:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Leon,

"I've got love, for all your hate", man.
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Leon



Joined: 31 May 2010

PostPosted: Thu Jul 03, 2014 3:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

trueblue wrote:
Leon,

"I've got love, for all your hate", man.


It's hateful to point out that America has a deep strategic interest in Asia?
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Sector7G



Joined: 24 May 2008

PostPosted: Thu Jul 03, 2014 5:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

trueblue wrote:
Quote:
"If you hate it so bad here, why don't you leave?"



That has no application, but I understand what you are saying.

I am content, for the most part But, as an American, I do resent that the tax dollars of my country are sent here. We should be taking care of own, first and foremost.

Well, you kind of broke up my sentence to take some words out of context, didn't you?

Anyway, I agree that a single teacher in Korea who never goes out and experiences those things you have no interest in can save a decent amount of money in a year, but that does not really square with a "life is too short" philosophy. That's all I am saying. But I could be wrong, maybe you are writing a book or something. And after all, Korea was known as the "Hermit Kingdom", so maybe you made the right choice.

But I still don't think you have answered the resentment question - at least where you see Koreans resentment of US. As far as your resentment of US tax dollars being sent over, both Leon and I have made points about strategic interests which you also have not really answered.
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trueblue



Joined: 15 Jun 2014
Location: In between the lines

PostPosted: Thu Jul 03, 2014 5:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Do you need someone to hold your hand, as well?
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Sector7G



Joined: 24 May 2008

PostPosted: Thu Jul 03, 2014 6:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

trueblue wrote:
Do you need someone to hold your hand, as well?

Same answer as the other thread "Sounds like a cop out to me. Every one has a right to their opinion, but it's also fair to ask what they are basing that opinion on."
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trueblue



Joined: 15 Jun 2014
Location: In between the lines

PostPosted: Thu Jul 03, 2014 6:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Same answer as the other thread "Sounds like a cop out to me. Every one has a right to their opinion, but it's also fair to ask what they are basing that opinion on."


Yes, it is the same answer.

Do your own work...I paid to do mine.
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Sector7G



Joined: 24 May 2008

PostPosted: Thu Jul 03, 2014 6:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

trueblue wrote:
Yes, it is the same answer.

Do your own work...I paid to do mine.
Ok, seems you can't support your arguments - it's too much of a burden for you - so you want us to do it for you.
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Steelrails



Joined: 12 Mar 2009
Location: Earth, Solar System

PostPosted: Thu Jul 03, 2014 6:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

America should send tax dollars in the form of troops to Korea only if and when its in its own interests to do so. Outside of that, if it doesn't serve their interests then they should cease all such activities.

I don't know what the ledger reads, but if say Korea buys arms from America or is a key part of its commercial interests that keeps American workers at their jobs, then it might be in our interest. Of course we then have to wonder whose interests in America such actions serve.

I think the time is fast approaching, if it hasn't already, where the US military presence here is little more than resources hooked to a Korean vacuum, ultimately detrimental to both sides.

I mean Korea is already exporting arms and systems such as MBTs, SPA, IFVs, and 4th gen light fighters that are more than a match for anything not a MIG-29 in the Nork's arsenal. Any Nork/Chinese deterrence from the 30,000 troops here is becoming increasingly negligible and increasingly ineffective as some sort of offensive force. America could well draw down to a small ground force presence, a modest task force, and an air unit or two and get nearly the same effect for far less cost. Same with Germany, Italy, England, and Japan.

Of course this ignores the whole "security for cash" system we've worked out with the rest of the world that is one of our biggest exports, but thats a much deeper discussion.
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Leon



Joined: 31 May 2010

PostPosted: Thu Jul 03, 2014 8:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Steelrails wrote:
America should send tax dollars in the form of troops to Korea only if and when its in its own interests to do so. Outside of that, if it doesn't serve their interests then they should cease all such activities.

I don't know what the ledger reads, but if say Korea buys arms from America or is a key part of its commercial interests that keeps American workers at their jobs, then it might be in our interest. Of course we then have to wonder whose interests in America such actions serve.

I think the time is fast approaching, if it hasn't already, where the US military presence here is little more than resources hooked to a Korean vacuum, ultimately detrimental to both sides.

I mean Korea is already exporting arms and systems such as MBTs, SPA, IFVs, and 4th gen light fighters that are more than a match for anything not a MIG-29 in the Nork's arsenal. Any Nork/Chinese deterrence from the 30,000 troops here is becoming increasingly negligible and increasingly ineffective as some sort of offensive force. America could well draw down to a small ground force presence, a modest task force, and an air unit or two and get nearly the same effect for far less cost. Same with Germany, Italy, England, and Japan.

Of course this ignores the whole "security for cash" system we've worked out with the rest of the world that is one of our biggest exports, but thats a much deeper discussion.


That ignores China and Japan and that the only thing keeping a balance of power in the region is America. America leaves, Japan realizes, as it is starting to already, that it needs to become a normal country again and ramp up its military and get a nuke, this drives Korea and China crazy, it would not be exactly hard for Korea to get a nuke either, etc. and this is ignoring how things will be affected if/when Korea unifies. This is just a broad sketch, but your first paragraph is not really the interests that keep us there, its the chance to have real estate in the area, and while North Korea is obviously a real concern, it is NK's big brother that this is mostly about.
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drcrazy



Joined: 19 Feb 2003
Location: Pusan. Yes, that's right. Pusan NOT Busan. I ain't never been to no place called Busan

PostPosted: Sat Jul 05, 2014 12:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

trueblue wrote:
Quote:
Same answer as the other thread "Sounds like a cop out to me. Every one has a right to their opinion, but it's also fair to ask what they are basing that opinion on."


Yes, it is the same answer.

Do your own work...I paid to do mine.



Use the quote option DUDE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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Titus



Joined: 19 May 2012

PostPosted: Sun Jul 06, 2014 8:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Leon wrote:
Steelrails wrote:
America should send tax dollars in the form of troops to Korea only if and when its in its own interests to do so. Outside of that, if it doesn't serve their interests then they should cease all such activities.

I don't know what the ledger reads, but if say Korea buys arms from America or is a key part of its commercial interests that keeps American workers at their jobs, then it might be in our interest. Of course we then have to wonder whose interests in America such actions serve.

I think the time is fast approaching, if it hasn't already, where the US military presence here is little more than resources hooked to a Korean vacuum, ultimately detrimental to both sides.

I mean Korea is already exporting arms and systems such as MBTs, SPA, IFVs, and 4th gen light fighters that are more than a match for anything not a MIG-29 in the Nork's arsenal. Any Nork/Chinese deterrence from the 30,000 troops here is becoming increasingly negligible and increasingly ineffective as some sort of offensive force. America could well draw down to a small ground force presence, a modest task force, and an air unit or two and get nearly the same effect for far less cost. Same with Germany, Italy, England, and Japan.

Of course this ignores the whole "security for cash" system we've worked out with the rest of the world that is one of our biggest exports, but thats a much deeper discussion.


That ignores China and Japan and that the only thing keeping a balance of power in the region is America. America leaves, Japan realizes, as it is starting to already, that it needs to become a normal country again and ramp up its military and get a nuke, this drives Korea and China crazy, it would not be exactly hard for Korea to get a nuke either, etc. and this is ignoring how things will be affected if/when Korea unifies. This is just a broad sketch, but your first paragraph is not really the interests that keep us there, its the chance to have real estate in the area, and while North Korea is obviously a real concern, it is NK's big brother that this is mostly about.


Leon is correct about the impact of American retreat. The decline of the USA, which is happening and speeding up like a bullet train, will involve a great deal of re-balancing among regional powers. It will probably be quite violent in places.

Korea's future is as a vassal of China. On a long enough timeline, Korea may simply be assimilated into China. The ROK exists independent of Japan/China because Western powers decided it so. Japan will have to go nuclear or be destroyed by her history-obsessed neighbors.
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Kuros



Joined: 27 Apr 2004

PostPosted: Sun Jul 06, 2014 9:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Titus wrote:

Korea's future is as a vassal of China. On a long enough timeline, Korea may simply be assimilated into China. The ROK exists independent of Japan/China because Western powers decided it so. Japan will have to go nuclear or be destroyed by her history-obsessed neighbors.


Leaving aside America, Korea has existed independent of China for a great many years. There is not a time in history where China directly controlled the southern part of the Korean peninsula which today we call the Republic of Korea.

When you look at China's relationship with its current vassal, and some of you may reasonably dispute that the DPRK is a vassal of China, you find Chinese impatience, distaste, and sometimes scorn with regards to the relationship. China manages DPRK to the extent that it feels it must, and occasionally is not even successful. Why would China want to make South Korea anything more than a vassal? It appears that China has been quite content to benignly neglect Korea as a willing vassal in the past. Why would this change now?

As in the past, China will likely be focused everywhere else but Korea. It will focus on its border with Russia, it will focus on interfering in Southeast Asia, it will focus on border clashes with hostile India. Most of all, China's focus will lie where it always has and where it always has needed to most; China will focus on internal crises and management.
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Titus



Joined: 19 May 2012

PostPosted: Sun Jul 06, 2014 12:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Small nations in close proximity to large, vastly more powerful nations eventually become vassals. There are some exceptions, but it is generally a solid rule. Vietnam will follow as well. The region will obey.
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Leon



Joined: 31 May 2010

PostPosted: Sun Jul 06, 2014 1:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Titus wrote:
Small nations in close proximity to large, vastly more powerful nations eventually become vassals. There are some exceptions, but it is generally a solid rule. Vietnam will follow as well. The region will obey.


There is a big difference between being a vassal of China, and being assimilated into China. Korea won't be assimilated in the foreseeable future, vassal- that depends on the relative decline and rise of America and China.

This jockeying is already happening. http://www.nytimes.com/2014/07/03/world/asia/chinas-president-to-visit-south-korea.html?_r=0

Quote:
"SEOUL, South Korea — President Xi Jinping of China arrived in South Korea on Thursday for a state visit to a vital American ally, a move that appears to signal his resolve to unsettle America’s alliances in Northeast Asia and fortify his argument for a new security architecture in the region, with China as the dominant player.

In the past, Chinese leaders have visited their ally North Korea before visiting South Korea, but Mr. Xi seems to be showing the North Korean leader, Kim Jong-un, the cold shoulder: He has not been to Pyongyang, nor has he invited Mr. Kim to Beijing.

Instead, he is embracing President Park Geun-hye of South Korea, where $270 billion in trade with China and Ms. Park’s frosty relations with Japan, America’s prime ally in Asia, offer more prospects for Beijing’s ambitions to undermine the United States."


There was a recent poll out that was very interesting. It shows Koreans being very supportive of the military alliance- with 93% supporting it and 66% supporting it even in the aftermath of a reunification, and in the survey America was by far the most popular country. While Koreans view America as most influential politically and economically now, they believe that China will be the most influential country economically in the future.

http://en.asaninst.org/asan-report-south-korean-attitudes-on-the-korea-us-alliance-and-northeast-asia/

You mentioned that you like Mearsheimer before I think, right? He disagrees with you in that he thinks Japan and Korea and all the others will ally with the U.S. as an offshore balancer rather than ally with China, however he does agree about the possibility of violence and conflict, but he always seems to see that possibility in his writing. http://nationalinterest.org/commentary/can-china-rise-peacefully-10204

I wonder if the isolationists will like the world that would be if America left it. I think America living the Middle East would be mostly a good thing, but leaving Asia, which is still capable of power politics, would have far reaching consequences.
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Titus



Joined: 19 May 2012

PostPosted: Sun Jul 06, 2014 3:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
There was a recent poll out that was very interesting. It shows Koreans being very supportive of the military alliance- with 93% supporting it and 66% supporting it even in the aftermath of a reunification, and in the survey America was by far the most popular country.


Given that this is what the ROK establishment wants her subjects to believe it is not surprising that the people absorb what their rulers want them to absorb.

I don't see public opinion as something that forms from millions of individuals making well-informed decisions but rather something that is shaped and moved by the ruling class.

Quote:
You mentioned that you like Mearsheimer before I think, right? He disagrees with you in that he thinks Japan and Korea and all the others will ally with the U.S. as an offshore balancer rather than ally with China


Yeah, he wrote that recently. I think he's right that Korea will want to, but America simply will not have the financial resources to provide what these states may want.

Quote:
I wonder if the isolationists will like the world that would be if America left it.


You're referring to me as the isolationist? Firstly, and most importantly, isolationist as a pejorative is regime propaganda. It is used to place people who want a normal policy in a box as outside of normal opinion. This is a great example of how public opinion is shaped and moved. We're social creatures and want to belong. When it is communicated that an ideal is outside norms most people will then avoid holding that idea.

Secondly, I'm not an isolationist for any country. Nations should trade and interact as their interests demand. I'd support 'nation building' and 'democracy promotion' if I thought those ideals to be ideal and in any way obtainable.
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