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Mass shooting in South Korea
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Captain Corea



Joined: 28 Feb 2005
Location: Seoul

PostPosted: Sun Jun 22, 2014 3:05 am    Post subject: Mass shooting in South Korea Reply with quote

http://english.yonhapnews.co.kr/national/2014/06/22/91/0301000000AEN20140622000700315F.html

Quote:
An Army sergeant who fled after a shooting spree was still at large Sunday as the defense ministry set up a crisis management team.

Five soldiers were killed and seven others were wounded Saturday in the shooting at a front-line Army unit.

The sergeant in the 22nd Infantry Division in this eastern border town of Goseong, Gangwon Province, identified only by his surname Lim, fired about 10 shots with his K-2 rifle near a general outpost at around 8:15 p.m., according to the Army. The shooter then ran away with a grenade, a gun and some 60 rounds of ammunition.

A grenade went off near the scene of the rampage, Army officers said, adding they were trying to find out if it had been thrown by Lim and to determine whether the grenade, along with rifle shots, had also caused casualties and injuries.

The victims include one staff sergeant, a sergeant, a corporal and two privates, with their identities being withheld by the Army.

The wounded soldiers were taken to nearby hospitals, and they did not sustain life-threatening injuries, according to the officers.

Immediately after wrapping up his guard duty of about six hours from 2 p.m. Saturday, Lim apparently opened fire near the post, the officers said.


And still at large as far as i know.
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andrewchon



Joined: 16 Nov 2008
Location: In my goshiwon cubicle. Seeking moksha.

PostPosted: Mon Jun 23, 2014 12:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

He's been captured bleeding and hurt after a suicide attempt.
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Stan Rogers



Joined: 20 Aug 2010

PostPosted: Mon Jun 23, 2014 2:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sounds like Rambo to me.
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Old Painless



Joined: 01 Jan 2014

PostPosted: Mon Jun 23, 2014 1:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

They should ban the army, then there would be no guns in Korea.
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Lucas



Joined: 11 Sep 2012

PostPosted: Mon Jun 23, 2014 3:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
They should ban the army, then there would be no guns in Korea.


I see what you did there, very clever. Wink

America should ban burgers, then there'd be no fat people....
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cj1976



Joined: 26 Oct 2005

PostPosted: Mon Jun 23, 2014 3:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

They seriously need to rethink the conscription policy here. In such a brutally competitive and downright soul-crushing society such as Korea, these kind of socially maladjusted individuals are bound to slip through the cracks every now and then.
However, in conformist Confucian Korea, demanding attention be paid to individuals is just not how it is done. I am not sure what kind of mental health screening conscripts are required to undertake, but I can imagine that it is carried out in the same bungling, half-arsed manner as everything else here.
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le-paul



Joined: 07 Apr 2009
Location: dans la chambre

PostPosted: Mon Jun 23, 2014 4:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

cj1976 wrote:
They seriously need to rethink the conscription policy here. In such a brutally competitive and downright soul-crushing society such as Korea, these kind of socially maladjusted individuals are bound to slip through the cracks every now and then.
However, in conformist Confucian Korea, demanding attention be paid to individuals is just not how it is done. I am not sure what kind of mental health screening conscripts are required to undertake, but I can imagine that it is carried out in the same bungling, half-arsed manner as everything else here.


I agree and disagree. For the following opinions/ reasons.

disagree - Korea needs a standing army because Koreans seem intent on being constantly on the brink of war with their neighbours (a trait that north and south seem to share).

agree- the social pressure that men have is hindered by time in the armed forces, especially when after the basic training, most of them are pissing about cutting the grass or whatever for most of their time - mulling over mr kim screwing his gf because he has a job, car and more money that him.

disagree - because can you imagine what Korean men would be like without some army training? At least it makes men out of them to a point and they have to learn to behave in public. It also gives them a chance to sharpen their ostracising and bullying skills after high school.

agree - the army is not the place for people who are mentally unstable. i know there are physical vetting procedures but its more difficult to screen people who are mentally ill and hiding it - especially when most of the general populace would seem neurotic at first glance (eg poor social skills vs arrogance).

etc...
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hellofaniceguy



Joined: 10 Jan 2003
Location: On your computer screen!

PostPosted: Mon Jun 23, 2014 4:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Old Painless wrote:
They should ban the army, then there would be no guns in Korea.


People were killing each other and mass killings by a single person have been going on LONG before guns were invented! Makes no difference; guns or no guns. Sure a gun will make it easier but when a person wants to kill..they will find a way.
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Steelrails



Joined: 12 Mar 2009
Location: Earth, Solar System

PostPosted: Mon Jun 23, 2014 5:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Was he a conscript? Has that been determined?

As far as fragging incidents like this, the larger an army you have, the more likely these incidents are to take place. Sheer scale, the fact that violent types can see the military as a place to either fulfill or discipline their impulses, the ability of people to snap, proximity to weapons, etc. We've seen it back home in the U.S., wouldn't be surprised if it happens in China and Russia too. And of course the Mideast being another area of large armies is just a big write-off.

Quote:
are pissing about cutting the grass or whatever for most of their time


It all depends on what their MOS is. First we have to recall that the tooth to tail ratio is probably somewhere between 3~7:1 for support troops to combat troops. So not all conscripts are going to be out there standing in the rain and staring across the DMZ. From my friends/acquaintances who have done military service, I've known some who were infantry, some armor, some KATUSAs, and some who were office types.

Quote:
because can you imagine what Korean men would be like without some army training? At least it makes men out of them to a point and they have to learn to behave in public. It also gives them a chance to sharpen their ostracising and bullying skills after high school.


Well, not all Korean men or kids are scrawny flower boys. A good many are more traditional types.

As far as osctracisation and bullying that is NOT the case, at least from the officers I know. In my adult classes with soldiers all of them have stressed that the hitting and screaming type stuff that you see on movies is not how it really is and is quite verboten. All of them have come across as quite genuinely concerned for the welfare of their subordinates (that whole brink of war and the stakes of death thing tends to focus the mind).

Additionally, they are officers. Much like people perceive US Army.Marine Corps officers to be one thing when an in reality they are much calmer, bookish, and intellectual than people think, same with Korean officers. Some you wouldn't know it to look at them (not all, some fit the classic mold as well).

Anyways, as far as 'manliness' and behaving in public, take some officers out for dinner (throw in a fighter pilot or two) to meet some expats and see who at that setting is 'manly'. The expat bluster kind of goes out the window when the guy across from you talks about flying F-16s for a living.
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Lucas



Joined: 11 Sep 2012

PostPosted: Mon Jun 23, 2014 5:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
agree - the army is not the place for people who are mentally unstable. i know there are physical vetting procedures but its more difficult to screen people who are mentally ill and hiding it - especially when most of the general populace would seem neurotic at first glance (eg poor social skills vs arrogance).
etc...


You could same the same about many EFL teachers here in Korea..... Wink
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atwood



Joined: 26 Dec 2009

PostPosted: Mon Jun 23, 2014 6:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

As posted on the other board, the guy had been identified as being at risk--type A--and was relieved of duty. He was later upgraded to type B, at which time it's up to his CO to determine if he is fit for active service.

So it's hard to criticize the army, except for maybe the CO who decided to post a guy knows to have some mental health issues at a high-stress post. Were they trying to toughen him up or to punish him are questions worth asking.

As for the above post from sr, now a commander on land, sea, and in the air, I'm sure supervision in the military is much like in other areas of Korean life. They leave the hazing, etc. to the men in ranks.
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fermentation



Joined: 22 Jun 2009

PostPosted: Mon Jun 23, 2014 6:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Stan Rogers wrote:
Sounds like Rambo to me.


Haha that's what I said when I heard about this!

cj1976 wrote:
They seriously need to rethink the conscription policy here. In such a brutally competitive and downright soul-crushing society such as Korea, these kind of socially maladjusted individuals are bound to slip through the cracks every now and then.

However, in conformist Confucian Korea, demanding attention be paid to individuals is just not how it is done. I am not sure what kind of mental health screening conscripts are required to undertake, but I can imagine that it is carried out in the same bungling, half-arsed manner as everything else here.


There were times when I was scared that some guys who were obviously off were being handed rifles and allowed to throw a grenade. Fortunately nothing happened. There are no mental health screenings during conscription. Absolutely none.

le-paul wrote:

disagree - Korea needs a standing army because Koreans seem intent on being constantly on the brink of war with their neighbours (a trait that north and south seem to share).


A standing army doesn't need to be a conscript army. We need an all-volunteer force of professionals because our current method of conscripting everybody ends up detrimental to the combat effectiveness of the ROK military.

Quote:

disagree - because can you imagine what Korean men would be like without some army training? At least it makes men out of them to a point and they have to learn to behave in public. It also gives them a chance to sharpen their ostracising and bullying skills after high school.
.


Why does everybody think the military is a "manly" experience. I've been exposed to the softest pansies in the military. Two years of servitude doesn't make anyone a "man" whatever that even means.

Steelrails wrote:
Was he a conscript? Has that been determined?


Yes. His rank is SGT (병장). Which is unusual because most guys at the stage of their service don't snap. They've been there long enough and their discharge is close enough that they tend to wait it out. And since Sgt is the highest rank for conscripts, he shouldn't have that many people breathing down his neck except for some officers. In cases like these, I think he was a lost cause regardless of his situation. He probably would've offed himself as a civilian. Probably shouldn't have been let in the military in the first place.

Regardless, the media will harp on this and the military will receive a lot of negative attention, which will lead to attempts to try to improve, or at least look like they're improving, conscript life. This will probably policy changes that will benefit (even if temporarily before the dust settles and everything goes back to normal) conscripts everywhere. it was the like that for me when the mass shooting in the Marine Corps happened a few years ago.

Quote:
I'm sure supervision in the military is much like in other areas of Korean life. They leave the hazing, etc. to the men in ranks.


On point. They leave the actual training of new conscripts to other conscripts as well. Like everything else, it was half-assed.

My unit was going through an evaluation and when one of the grenadiers (a corporal with one year of experience) complained that none of us didn't know how to use the grenade launchers, our platoon leader simply told us, "read the booklet."
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Steelrails



Joined: 12 Mar 2009
Location: Earth, Solar System

PostPosted: Mon Jun 23, 2014 6:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

atwood wrote:

As for the above post from sr, now a commander on land, sea, and in the air, I'm sure supervision in the military is much like in other areas of Korean life. They leave the hazing, etc. to the men in ranks.


That is NOT the case. I'm sure some hazing goes on amongst private soldiers (and I'm sure in some cases its relatively benign and in others can be bad) when not under watch, but the officers and NCOs do not carry out such behavior and do not tolerate it. Every one of my officer students during conversation class has talked about encouraging their troops through positive means, not through hazing, beatings, and other stuff like that.

The Korean military is not some Mickey Mouse operation.
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atwood



Joined: 26 Dec 2009

PostPosted: Mon Jun 23, 2014 6:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Steelrails wrote:
atwood wrote:

As for the above post from sr, now a commander on land, sea, and in the air, I'm sure supervision in the military is much like in other areas of Korean life. They leave the hazing, etc. to the men in ranks.


That is NOT the case. I'm sure some hazing goes on amongst private soldiers (and I'm sure in some cases its relatively benign and in others can be bad) when not under watch, but the officers and NCOs do not carry out such behavior and do not tolerate it. Every one of my officer students during conversation class has talked about encouraging their troops through positive means, not through hazing, beatings, and other stuff like that.

The Korean military is not some Mickey Mouse operation.

That's exactly what I posted. The officers give a pep talk now and then, go back to sitting behind a desk and leave the rest to the soldiers in the ranks.

As for hazing, why would it be any different from the bullying that goes on in schools? Except now the bullies have greater means and opportunity.

"They told me." Then it must be true, right? Does the phrase "closing ranks" mean anything to you?
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Steelrails



Joined: 12 Mar 2009
Location: Earth, Solar System

PostPosted: Mon Jun 23, 2014 7:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

atwood wrote:

That's exactly what I posted. The officers give a pep talk now and then, go back to sitting behind a desk and leave the rest to the soldiers in the ranks.

As for hazing, why would it be any different from the bullying that goes on in schools? Except now the bullies have greater means and opportunity.

"They told me." Then it must be true, right? Does the phrase "closing ranks" mean anything to you?


Well there's the natural amount of stuff that goes on when you get a bunch of men together and amplify it with a military setting. Since time immemorial its gone on and will go on. But from what they said, its certainly official policy or from the ones I talked to, their unofficial policy. Now that's not to say that there isn't an officer out there who hasn't made it his unofficial policy. Odds dictate that there must be at least one, and a lot more than one.
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