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optik404
Joined: 24 Jun 2008
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 Posted: Tue Jun 24, 2014 6:12 pm Post subject: |
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| jvalmer wrote: |
| optik404 wrote: |
My Korean BFF told me about his time in the military. I think he went in 00 or maybe 01. He was put in some elite unit where they don't have to wear uniforms (because of his family background, political), they could leave base any time they wanted, etc.
Said they had one guy that was hazed a ton and he tried to kill himself. When they found the guy in the barracks bleeding, the ranking officer started beating him, they got him to the hospital and he lived. My friend snitched on the ranking officer about the hazing and beating and the guy had everyone ignore my friend for a year. Nobody talked to him, but they would secretly drop him notes and choco pies  |
You sure it's a ranking officer? Not a ranking draftee soldier?
Draftees are usually just promoted according to time served. Apparently, it gets a little awkward if the ranking soldier is younger than the lower ranking soldier. Supposedly it's one of the small advantages if a guy serves later, a young ranking soldier won't boss an older guy around much. |
You're probably right. I'm not familiar with military ranks.
Funny thing, my buddy got promoted and he tried to encourage a peace loving atmosphere. When they wanted to watch UFC or Pride, he wouldn't let them and made them watch romance movies. |
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Steelrails
Joined: 12 Mar 2009
Location: Earth, Solar System
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| Posted: Tue Jun 24, 2014 6:18 pm Post subject: |
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| 1/ being able to cope with g force is more to do with - genetics, training, and general fitness than manliness. that point you made is just silly. |
Yes, when one thinks of manliness, having your stuff together and being fit certainly NEVER come to mind...
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I love how SR collects evidence - "I talked to someone". That would normally suggest a person has the gullibility and suggestibility of a preschooler.
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Hence why I followed it up with the term "postulated" in order to make clear that this was not a statement of fact, but rather a theory.
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Anyway, assuming for a minute that ( with your sample size of one) your correct and it was simple 'silent treatment', wouldnt that be some kind of emotional abuse? If you ignored a child of yours everyday, for example, would you consider that good parenting? i think its what people would term 'passive aggressive'.
I think you could argue that he was being bullied if that was the case. |
Well, the officer I talked to certainly didn't think the silent treatment was good or proper and that either the platoon or company commander or some screener should have caught it. He mentioned as a company commander that he took care to encourage a team atmosphere and respect try and take time out to care for every private soldier under his command.
I also meant that the silent treatment was still a negative act, not traditional bullying per se, but a negative act. Something may have been lost in the translation as at times it sounded like he was describing the silent treatment and at times it sounded like the guy simply not having friends or being part of any social circle.
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| You forgot to mention that they are also Koreans - and using the SR method of a sample size of 'everything my eyes can see' (which makes my argument more valid than yours), Ive noticed that bulling is frequent from an early age and seems to manifest itself more from the age of around 11/12 in koreans, peaking in high school. |
Are you saying that hazing doesn't happen in other militaries? That bullying doesn't happen in other countries? Do other countries ever have soldiers go postal and kill each other?
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I'm sure some hazing goes on amongst private soldiers (and I'm sure in some cases its relatively benign and in others can be bad) when not under watch, but the officers and NCOs do not carry out such behaviour and do not tolerate it. Every one of my officer students during conversation class has talked about encouraging their troops through positive means, not through hazing, beatings, and other stuff like that.
Yeah, just like everyone of my house wife students sits in front of me and tells me what a great husband she has and life is wonderful bowl of rose petals and puppy dogs tongues.
Again, using the SR method, I have to believe her because people never tell lies, never try to save face, love to invite foreigners into their deepest secrets so we can know the inner workings of their cultur |
First, I should clarify that I was only talking about the officers I teach and the ones under their command. They might disproportionately represent 'good' officers. Like I also said, there's bound to be some crappy ones out there- sheer scale and odds in a 650,000 personnel military.
But as the teacher of the class and the person there, I can tell you these weren't simple canned phrases. This was part of a two-hour discussion class prefaced with a TED-talk clip on leadership, a clip and topic which they themselves suggested. During the discussion they all discussed positive methods to build teamwork and lead their subordinates. However not every method was agreed upon as being good. They actually ARGUED with each other. Contrary to popular perception at your Hagwon adult class where no one knows each other and wants to be civil and talk about movies or Dokdo where everyone agrees or says something banal, with these students they actually speak up and disagree about stuff, including to older and senior officers. They do it politely and respectfully, but they make clear they have a different point of view. It is actively encouraged during discussion. |
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Mr. BlackCat
Joined: 30 Nov 2005
Location: Insert witty remark HERE
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| Posted: Tue Jun 24, 2014 7:42 pm Post subject: |
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| le-paul wrote: |
| Steelrails wrote: |
| Who's Your Daddy? wrote: |
| jvalmer wrote: |
| If you guys want to know what Korean mandatory military service is like these days, just try talking to a young male teacher under 40. |
When you walk down the street and look at Korean men post-military service they still seem like wimps. I'm always thankful the US Army is here. One US soldier could probably take 4 of them. [Some of the Korean high-schoolers here look tough though.] |
What do you want them to do? Walk around in a semi-menacing fashion? It's civilian life, you're not supposed to look intimidating in a sane society.
Anyways, don't base combat capability on looks. Afghan soldiers may look intimidating but they can't get past the concept that opening up on a target 150 yards away at full auto on an AK is not the most effective means. It looks scary but its not effective.
http://atwar.blogs.nytimes.com/2010/04/02/the-weakness-of-taliban-marksmanship/
People throughout history have paid the price for basing military effectiveness on appearances.
Like I said, some of the officers I know have a "classic" military appearance, others don't. But if you want to see manliness, get the guy who may not look traditionally manly but flies an F-16 or is an infantry company commander and can run the socks off of you vs. Expat bluster and the manliness gets sorted out pretty quickly. Go up for a spin with that geeky looking guy who happens to be an Air Force pilot and we'll see who is manly when you puke all over yourself and then blackout.
Of course there are the guys who got conscripted and are marking time and have little in the way of physical presence. That's going to happen when you have full national conscription.
Anyways, I talked to one of my students about the incident today and he postulated that what happened wasn't bullying or hazing (at least not in the traditional sense) but more akin to the silent treatment and the guy having no friends.
EDIT- the above reminds me of a local MMA/Boxing event I once went to. First fight was a boxing match between some tatted up biker and some Indian kid who looked like he worked the counter at the Kwik-E-Mart and had a gut. Fight starts and the biker comes out swinging haymakers left and right. But the biker was a brawler and the kid was a boxer. 90 seconds later the biker had hit the canvas 3 times and had no idea where he was. Later in the card you had a kid that looked like he studied computer science, complete with glasses. Gets in the ring against some guy who did hockey and decided to fight for a night. And to beat a point home, the hockey player could throw punches, the kid knew jiu-jitsu. Armbar first round, fight over, computer science guy wins, hockey player refuses to tap and wrecks his arm. Never judge the fight in someone based on how they look. |
Like I said, some of the officers I know have a "classic" military appearance, others don't. But if you want to see manliness, get the guy who may not look traditionally manly but flies an F-16 or is an infantry company commander and can run the socks off of you vs. Expat bluster and the manliness gets sorted out pretty quickly. Go up for a spin with that geeky looking guy who happens to be an Air Force pilot and we'll see who is manly when you puke all over yourself and then blackout.
1/ being able to cope with g force is more to do with - genetics, training, and general fitness than manliness. that point you made is just silly.
Anyways, I talked to one of my students about the incident today and he postulated that what happened wasn't bullying or hazing (at least not in the traditional sense) but more akin to the silent treatment and the guy having no friends.
I love how SR collects evidence - "I talked to someone". That would normally suggest a person has the gullibility and suggestibility of a preschooler.
Anyway, assuming for a minute that ( with your sample size of one) your correct and it was simple 'silent treatment', wouldnt that be some kind of emotional abuse? If you ignored a child of yours everyday, for example, would you consider that good parenting? i think its what people would term 'passive aggressive'.
I think you could argue that he was being bullied if that was the case.
Well there's the natural amount of stuff that goes on when you get a bunch of men together and amplify it with a military setting.
You forgot to mention that they are also Koreans - and using the SR method of a sample size of 'everything my eyes can see' (which makes my argument more valid than yours), Ive noticed that bulling is frequent from an early age and seems to manifest itself more from the age of around 11/12 in koreans, peaking in high school.
I'm sure some hazing goes on amongst private soldiers (and I'm sure in some cases its relatively benign and in others can be bad) when not under watch, but the officers and NCOs do not carry out such behaviour and do not tolerate it. Every one of my officer students during conversation class has talked about encouraging their troops through positive means, not through hazing, beatings, and other stuff like that.
Yeah, just like everyone of my house wife students sits in front of me and tells me what a great husband she has and life is wonderful bowl of rose petals and puppy dogs tongues.
Again, using the SR method, I have to believe her because people never tell lies, never try to save face, love to invite foreigners into their deepest secrets so we can know the inner workings of their culture. |
How dare you question SR's expert knowledge on every single niche subject! It's just that he doesn't feel the need to share these extensive, personal experiences with anyone until a subject comes up that even slightly hints at a negative portrayal of Korea.
While SR was living on his large farm surrounded by white racists in the middle of Los Angeles in the ghetto populated by extremely rough and violent ethnic types, he barely had to time to fly both small and commercial airplanes with every single relative you can imagine every weekend, while spending his weeks becoming quite the expert at boating, again both big and small. How big? How small? What does the conversation need? Cause SR has done it! Through all these amazing experiences, SR was also able to become an expert on law. What law? ALL LAW. In every country, even between countries, UN law, International law. EVERY LAW. Also, SR has been ordained as a minister in every religion, was present at every significant battle of the last 300 years (and some not so significant ones if the conversation calls for it!). Have you ever caught a fish? Because SR has caught two. And they were bigger! Everything you've done or learned, SR has done MORE. And questioning that only proves that you are "ignorant" "can't read" and are "jealous".
I mean, up until last week SR taught elementary students exclusively and thus could explain to all of us simpletons the complexities of childhood in Korea and why every single one of us was wrong about everything. But this thread is about the Korean military, and as such SR is now an experienced military instructor who knows the highest ranking officials in the country. You know a soldier? SR knows a Lieutenant. You know a General? SR knows the President. He teaches her twice a week!
Thus, you're "opinions" are just that, biased little hate speech soundbites from a grubby foreigner who doesn't know his place. SR doesn't have opinions. He has facts. Just ask him. |
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le-paul
Joined: 07 Apr 2009
Location: dans la chambre
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| Posted: Tue Jun 24, 2014 7:44 pm Post subject: |
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Quote:
You forgot to mention that they are also Koreans - and using the SR method of a sample size of 'everything my eyes can see' (which makes my argument more valid than yours), Ive noticed that bulling is frequent from an early age and seems to manifest itself more from the age of around 11/12 in koreans, peaking in high school.
Are you saying that hazing doesn't happen in other militaries? That bullying doesn't happen in other countries? Do other countries ever have soldiers go postal and kill each other?
No, Im saying that bullying is as much a part of Korean culture as kimchi and philandering.
Koreans (in my observation) seem to have little in the way of how can I put this, 'managerial skills'? Id say its more of a 'stick' culture than a 'carrot' one. Power games/intimidation/aggression therefore, are often used as a means to achieve an end goal.
As this is used in children (for example beating Jin because he wont concentrate in the after-school class because he wants to be outside in the snow building a snowman, but instead has to listen to some boring fart of a teacher who's only Kualification for teaching is that she studied English at middle school and herself - and would rather be Kakaoing her friends over coffee but has to be in this room etc.), it is also perpetuated in the playground and right up into adult hood - often manifesting itself into bullying behavior.
etc. etc. etc. |
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Steelrails
Joined: 12 Mar 2009
Location: Earth, Solar System
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| Posted: Wed Jun 25, 2014 12:19 am Post subject: |
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How dare you question SR's expert knowledge on every single niche subject! It's just that he doesn't feel the need to share these extensive, personal experiences with anyone until a subject comes up that even slightly hints at a negative portrayal of Korea.
While SR was living on his large farm surrounded by white racists in the middle of Los Angeles in the ghetto populated by extremely rough and violent ethnic types, he barely had to time to fly both small and commercial airplanes with every single relative you can imagine every weekend, while spending his weeks becoming quite the expert at boating, again both big and small. How big? How small? What does the conversation need? Cause SR has done it! Through all these amazing experiences, SR was also able to become an expert on law. What law? ALL LAW. In every country, even between countries, UN law, International law. EVERY LAW. Also, SR has been ordained as a minister in every religion, was present at every significant battle of the last 300 years (and some not so significant ones if the conversation calls for it!). Have you ever caught a fish? Because SR has caught two. And they were bigger! Everything you've done or learned, SR has done MORE. And questioning that only proves that you are "ignorant" "can't read" and are "jealous".
I mean, up until last week SR taught elementary students exclusively and thus could explain to all of us simpletons the complexities of childhood in Korea and why every single one of us was wrong about everything. But this thread is about the Korean military, and as such SR is now an experienced military instructor who knows the highest ranking officials in the country. You know a soldier? SR knows a Lieutenant. You know a General? SR knows the President. He teaches her twice a week!
Thus, you're "opinions" are just that, biased little hate speech soundbites from a grubby foreigner who doesn't know his place. SR doesn't have opinions. He has facts. Just ask him. |
PM sent.
| Quote: |
Are you saying that hazing doesn't happen in other militaries? That bullying doesn't happen in other countries? Do other countries ever have soldiers go postal and kill each other?
No, Im saying that bullying is as much a part of Korean culture as kimchi and philandering. |
Are you saying that cheating and bullying isn't a big part of other cultures? You know the ones signing up for Ashley Madison or the ones that give us endless stories and youtube videos on bullying? The ones that gave us Columbine, Sandy Hook, and any other number of incidents where someone went postal over workplace treatment?
I sometimes wonder if people living over here forget to read and check up on what is going on back home and some of the utter insanity that takes places there and realize that people the world over deal with the same crap.
| Quote: |
| Id say its more of a 'stick' culture than a 'carrot' one. Power games/intimidation/aggression therefore, are often used as a means to achieve an end goal. |
My students in a prior lesson, talking about discipline and the like mentioned how they would issue both positive and negative things for soldiers who did well or misbehaved such as leave passes, free time, outside food and the like or the revocation thereof.
Not to say that such things as power games don't take place, but not everyone is the same. When I taught elementary we had a principal who was strict and mostly did those kind of things (but made his objectives clear and did take a greater level of responsibility) vs. a more laisez-faire type who wasn't as competitive and gave teachers greater freedom to do what they want, but that also gave them the rope to hang themselves with. Just as every foreigner is not some boozed up skirt chaser, not every Korean is some power tripper who runs over everyone in their path. |
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Captain Corea
Joined: 28 Feb 2005
Location: Seoul
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| Posted: Wed Jun 25, 2014 12:38 am Post subject: |
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| Those that I've taught in a position of power have a massive disconnect from the lower tiers. What they think is being done, is often very far removed from reality. |
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Mr. BlackCat
Joined: 30 Nov 2005
Location: Insert witty remark HERE
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| Posted: Wed Jun 25, 2014 2:37 am Post subject: |
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| Steelrails wrote: |
Are you saying that cheating and bullying isn't a big part of other cultures? You know the ones signing up for Ashley Madison or the ones that give us endless stories and youtube videos on bullying? The ones that gave us Columbine, Sandy Hook, and any other number of incidents where someone went postal over workplace treatment?
I sometimes wonder if people living over here forget to read and check up on what is going on back home and some of the utter insanity that takes places there and realize that people the world over deal with the same crap.
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Just wanted to point out that the whole idea that the Columbine shooters were bullied was proven to be a myth like 10 years ago. One of them was quite popular, actually. Also, I don't remember bullying ever being brought up as a factor in the Sandy Hook shooting. The guy didn't have any association with any of his victims, actually.
Not that SR has any problems using the death of children to score cheap, easily disprovable, points. Just check out the Sewol thread to learn more.
I have no idea the cause of this shooting, nor do I have any good understanding of military culture here or elsewhere. What I am aware of is that SR is very good at arguing that the US and Korea are exactly the same, except for all the things that make the US bad. In that case, Korea is better.
I am also aware through my own experiences here that bullying is often given lip service, but totally tolerated in schools. I've seen the victim being punished many more times in my classes by Korean teachers (if anything is done at all) than the bully. I also believe that bullying is much more damaging in such a conformist monocultured society. It should go without saying that bullying is a problem everywhere, though. However, I fail to see how that fact negates the need for Korea to look into the problem itself. If bullying leads to suicides, murders or mental illness in Korea, then who cares what goes on in the US or anywhere else? Should we tell the parents of these victims that they should get over it because bullying is also a problem in the USA?
Please, SR, enlighten us why bullying in Korea is not a problem because it is a problem in the US. How do we get there? |
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andrewchon
Joined: 16 Nov 2008
Location: Back in Oz. Living in ISIS Aust.
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| Posted: Wed Jun 25, 2014 2:56 am Post subject: |
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Latest news is that he's survived the surgery and will live. However, he's facing a death sentence or at least a life imprisonment. The army has so far not revealed the contents of his confession letter. And that is what everybody wants to know, and why were some searcher soldiers deployed wih guns but NOT with ammunition?  |
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le-paul
Joined: 07 Apr 2009
Location: dans la chambre
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| Posted: Wed Jun 25, 2014 4:35 am Post subject: |
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Please, SR, enlighten us why bullying in Korea is not a problem because it is a problem in the US. How do we get there?
That.
And SR, I really dont care a fig what is going on in the USA - Ive never been there and dont plan to visit. Its irrelevant bringing that up.
I live here right now, this is my reality and what the thread was discussing.
____________________________________________________________
Anyway, this is what you said;
"Are you saying that hazing doesn't happen in other militaries?"
and I said;
"No, Im saying that bullying is as much a part of Korean culture as kimchi and philandering".
so you said;
"Are you saying that cheating and bullying isn't a big part of other cultures?".
This conversation is utter gibberish, therefore, I dont intend to pursue it any further. |
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Steelrails
Joined: 12 Mar 2009
Location: Earth, Solar System
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| Posted: Wed Jun 25, 2014 5:42 am Post subject: |
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And SR, I really dont care a fig what is going on in the USA - Ive never been there and dont plan to visit. Its irrelevant bringing that up.
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Sorry, wrong. If you bring up culture and ascribe it to being unique to Korea, then its perfectly fair game to bring up other countries.
If you don't want other countries brought up, then take issues with the posters who initially ascribe something to Korea, almost always negative, and compare them to other countries or state that they are special problems to Koreans.
Funny how all the people who get upset with apologists comparing Korea to other countries, never get upset when someone brings up other countries to negatively compare Korea too. Is it bringing up other countries that is the problem or is it disagreeing with your view that is the problem? |
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le-paul
Joined: 07 Apr 2009
Location: dans la chambre
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| Posted: Thu Jun 26, 2014 7:13 pm Post subject: |
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Its not other countries though, is it. Its always America.
Do you know there are around 195 countries in the world at present with which you could make comparisons about demographics etc.?
Are you stable? You just invent arguments in your head and then chase them round and round like a puppy after its own tail.
All you're doing, is proving that your arguments are constantly based on no substantial evidence and merely hearsay or personal observation . Which in the world of science - don't stand up to squat diddly.
I can honestly say that I have done legitimate research on this country, submitted it, and had it evaluated.
And thats beside the point - please quote me where I said its unique to Korea.
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Old Painless
Joined: 01 Jan 2014
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le-paul
Joined: 07 Apr 2009
Location: dans la chambre
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| Posted: Fri Jun 27, 2014 6:20 pm Post subject: |
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yeah thanks, but i was refering specifically to constantly making comparisons between korea and the usa. |
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chickenpie
Joined: 24 Dec 2008
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Weigookin74
Joined: 26 Oct 2009
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| Posted: Tue Jul 01, 2014 4:21 pm Post subject: |
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| Steelrails wrote: |
| Quote: |
How dare you question SR's expert knowledge on every single niche subject! It's just that he doesn't feel the need to share these extensive, personal experiences with anyone until a subject comes up that even slightly hints at a negative portrayal of Korea.
While SR was living on his large farm surrounded by white racists in the middle of Los Angeles in the ghetto populated by extremely rough and violent ethnic types, he barely had to time to fly both small and commercial airplanes with every single relative you can imagine every weekend, while spending his weeks becoming quite the expert at boating, again both big and small. How big? How small? What does the conversation need? Cause SR has done it! Through all these amazing experiences, SR was also able to become an expert on law. What law? ALL LAW. In every country, even between countries, UN law, International law. EVERY LAW. Also, SR has been ordained as a minister in every religion, was present at every significant battle of the last 300 years (and some not so significant ones if the conversation calls for it!). Have you ever caught a fish? Because SR has caught two. And they were bigger! Everything you've done or learned, SR has done MORE. And questioning that only proves that you are "ignorant" "can't read" and are "jealous".
I mean, up until last week SR taught elementary students exclusively and thus could explain to all of us simpletons the complexities of childhood in Korea and why every single one of us was wrong about everything. But this thread is about the Korean military, and as such SR is now an experienced military instructor who knows the highest ranking officials in the country. You know a soldier? SR knows a Lieutenant. You know a General? SR knows the President. He teaches her twice a week!
Thus, you're "opinions" are just that, biased little hate speech soundbites from a grubby foreigner who doesn't know his place. SR doesn't have opinions. He has facts. Just ask him. |
PM sent.
| Quote: |
Are you saying that hazing doesn't happen in other militaries? That bullying doesn't happen in other countries? Do other countries ever have soldiers go postal and kill each other?
No, Im saying that bullying is as much a part of Korean culture as kimchi and philandering. |
Are you saying that cheating and bullying isn't a big part of other cultures? You know the ones signing up for Ashley Madison or the ones that give us endless stories and youtube videos on bullying? The ones that gave us Columbine, Sandy Hook, and any other number of incidents where someone went postal over workplace treatment?
I sometimes wonder if people living over here forget to read and check up on what is going on back home and some of the utter insanity that takes places there and realize that people the world over deal with the same crap.
| Quote: |
| Id say its more of a 'stick' culture than a 'carrot' one. Power games/intimidation/aggression therefore, are often used as a means to achieve an end goal. |
My students in a prior lesson, talking about discipline and the like mentioned how they would issue both positive and negative things for soldiers who did well or misbehaved such as leave passes, free time, outside food and the like or the revocation thereof.
Not to say that such things as power games don't take place, but not everyone is the same. When I taught elementary we had a principal who was strict and mostly did those kind of things (but made his objectives clear and did take a greater level of responsibility) vs. a more laisez-faire type who wasn't as competitive and gave teachers greater freedom to do what they want, but that also gave them the rope to hang themselves with. Just as every foreigner is not some boozed up skirt chaser, not every Korean is some power tripper who runs over everyone in their path. |
Well, nowadays sites like Ashley Madison are quite popular. It's a huge change in our culture. Affairs by our grandparent or great grandparents were far less prevalent and are still viewed as wrong even if more folks are doing it nowadays.
Here traditionally men of power were allowed to cheat and the women would gladly be his second or third wife as long as he had gold for her to prospect. Philandering was encouraged and even institutionalized even if adultry was made a crime (probably after the war, I'm guessing). |
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