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Mass shooting in South Korea
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atwood



Joined: 26 Dec 2009

PostPosted: Mon Jun 23, 2014 7:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Steelrails wrote:
atwood wrote:

That's exactly what I posted. The officers give a pep talk now and then, go back to sitting behind a desk and leave the rest to the soldiers in the ranks.

As for hazing, why would it be any different from the bullying that goes on in schools? Except now the bullies have greater means and opportunity.

"They told me." Then it must be true, right? Does the phrase "closing ranks" mean anything to you?


Well there's the natural amount of stuff that goes on when you get a bunch of men together and amplify it with a military setting. Since time immemorial its gone on and will go on. But from what they said, its certainly official policy or from the ones I talked to, their unofficial policy. Now that's not to say that there isn't an officer out there who hasn't made it his unofficial policy. Odds dictate that there must be at least one, and a lot more than one.

Official policy in Korea usually isn't worth the paper it's written on.
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Steelrails



Joined: 12 Mar 2009
Location: Earth, Solar System

PostPosted: Mon Jun 23, 2014 7:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

atwood wrote:
Steelrails wrote:
atwood wrote:

That's exactly what I posted. The officers give a pep talk now and then, go back to sitting behind a desk and leave the rest to the soldiers in the ranks.

As for hazing, why would it be any different from the bullying that goes on in schools? Except now the bullies have greater means and opportunity.

"They told me." Then it must be true, right? Does the phrase "closing ranks" mean anything to you?


Well there's the natural amount of stuff that goes on when you get a bunch of men together and amplify it with a military setting. Since time immemorial its gone on and will go on. But from what they said, its certainly official policy or from the ones I talked to, their unofficial policy. Now that's not to say that there isn't an officer out there who hasn't made it his unofficial policy. Odds dictate that there must be at least one, and a lot more than one.

Official policy in Korea usually isn't worth the paper it's written on.


Well, there's obviously ins and outs, but people aren't just beating each other left and right out there either. Granted, most of my knowledge of their experience is either with my conscript friends, who disproportionately have KATUSA experience or my adult students who are all Army Capt./Naval Lt. or above. Obviously there's a gap in there of career NCOs and lower level officers who would probably be more involved in that kind of thing.

Still, asserting that there are just beatings going on left and right has no basis.
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Stan Rogers



Joined: 20 Aug 2010

PostPosted: Mon Jun 23, 2014 8:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

This has all the trapping of a Korean style Rambo movie. The story is remarkably similar. Soldier with some mental issues kills some people and a manhunt ensues and the soldier eludes everyone for a while until he is eventually captured.
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atwood



Joined: 26 Dec 2009

PostPosted: Mon Jun 23, 2014 8:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Steelrails wrote:
atwood wrote:
Steelrails wrote:
atwood wrote:

That's exactly what I posted. The officers give a pep talk now and then, go back to sitting behind a desk and leave the rest to the soldiers in the ranks.

As for hazing, why would it be any different from the bullying that goes on in schools? Except now the bullies have greater means and opportunity.

"They told me." Then it must be true, right? Does the phrase "closing ranks" mean anything to you?


Well there's the natural amount of stuff that goes on when you get a bunch of men together and amplify it with a military setting. Since time immemorial its gone on and will go on. But from what they said, its certainly official policy or from the ones I talked to, their unofficial policy. Now that's not to say that there isn't an officer out there who hasn't made it his unofficial policy. Odds dictate that there must be at least one, and a lot more than one.

Official policy in Korea usually isn't worth the paper it's written on.


Well, there's obviously ins and outs, but people aren't just beating each other left and right out there either. Granted, most of my knowledge of their experience is either with my conscript friends, who disproportionately have KATUSA experience or my adult students who are all Army Capt./Naval Lt. or above. Obviously there's a gap in there of career NCOs and lower level officers who would probably be more involved in that kind of thing.

Still, asserting that there are just beatings going on left and right has no basis.

Herr g, where did I assert that there were "beatings going on left and right?"

WHERE?
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jvalmer



Joined: 06 Jun 2003

PostPosted: Mon Jun 23, 2014 10:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

If you guys want to know what Korean mandatory military service is like these days, just try talking to a young male teacher under 40.

Some guys say it's ok, others absolutely hated it. Nobody 'likes' it. But, from what I gather, beatings in the ranks is pretty rare. If others find you odd, then they'll just isolate you, or make you do tons of menial work. Also, for a lot, after years of being coddled in school, and by overbearing mothers, the army is a tough adjustment. Some guys take it really tough, especially when often their 'girlfriend' breaks-up with them 6 months in.
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Captain Corea



Joined: 28 Feb 2005
Location: Seoul

PostPosted: Mon Jun 23, 2014 10:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yeah, my take on it is this - life in Korea was crappy 40 or so years ago, and military service was also crappy. But now, for most Koreans, life here is pretty decent - as jvalmer posted, they're often coddled when young. And even though things have improved in the military, the gap between home and the barracks has grown bigger.

I don't fully blame the military for this... I just think society has grown in a different direction.
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duhweecher



Joined: 06 Nov 2013

PostPosted: Tue Jun 24, 2014 1:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Interesting how the definition of "mass" becomes minuscule relatively speaking when you leave the US.

Anyone else get that yes-we-are-in-Kansas feeling? Wink Embarrassing...I feel ghetto now.
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Who's Your Daddy?



Joined: 30 May 2010
Location: The joy's in the ride.

PostPosted: Tue Jun 24, 2014 1:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

jvalmer wrote:
If you guys want to know what Korean mandatory military service is like these days, just try talking to a young male teacher under 40.


When you walk down the street and look at Korean men post-military service they still seem like wimps. I'm always thankful the US Army is here. One US soldier could probably take 4 of them. [Some of the Korean high-schoolers here look tough though.]
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jvalmer



Joined: 06 Jun 2003

PostPosted: Tue Jun 24, 2014 2:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Who's Your Daddy? wrote:
jvalmer wrote:
If you guys want to know what Korean mandatory military service is like these days, just try talking to a young male teacher under 40.

When you walk down the street and look at Korean men post-military service they still seem like wimps. I'm always thankful the US Army is here. One US soldier could probably take 4 of them. [Some of the Korean high-schoolers here look tough though.]

I never claimed they'd be good soldiers, just what I heard about the experience in the barracks. For 99% of guys, pretty much 2-years of grunt work, choco-pie, and boredom. Although I've been told being an army driver is pretty cushy.

Anyways, conscripts, when push comes to shove, are mere canon fodder, to be sent to the front-lines. Anyways, can't really judge them until they actually experience a war. But I do have my reservations about the S Korean army in a war. I think that's why US troops haven't been asked to leave Korea, even when the left was in power for 2 terms. Once someone becomes president, I'm sure some Korean general tells them the reality of Korean forces.
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schwa



Joined: 18 Jan 2003
Location: sokcho

PostPosted: Tue Jun 24, 2014 4:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I taught in a military camp in Gangwondo a couple evenings a week for a year (a couple years ago). The commander figured some english lessons might be useful & good for morale.

It was fun & I got to know the conscripts quite well. They were a totally mixed bag, ranging from top university students from Seoul & Gyeonggido to guys who came from driving meat delivery trucks in remote southern rural areas. There was lots of good-natured teasing among them but nothing I'd categorize as mean-spirited.

Officers never attended our classes so it was often a good venting session for them. They got to gripe about all the arbitrary grunt work they got ordered to do & complain about restrictions, but they understood they were all in it together & it was something they'd endure. Lots of humor & laughs too.

Constant strenuous activities did improve their physical condition. Some of them were learning useful new skills. They made new friendship connections. They had occasional recreational opportunities.

There was also a sense that their country required their defensive preparedness. As far as I could tell, most were taking their military training seriously.

At the same time, its not hard to imagine an antisocial individual cracking under blunt officers, imposed closeness, & relatively tough conditions.
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Steelrails



Joined: 12 Mar 2009
Location: Earth, Solar System

PostPosted: Tue Jun 24, 2014 9:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Who's Your Daddy? wrote:
jvalmer wrote:
If you guys want to know what Korean mandatory military service is like these days, just try talking to a young male teacher under 40.


When you walk down the street and look at Korean men post-military service they still seem like wimps. I'm always thankful the US Army is here. One US soldier could probably take 4 of them. [Some of the Korean high-schoolers here look tough though.]


What do you want them to do? Walk around in a semi-menacing fashion? It's civilian life, you're not supposed to look intimidating in a sane society.

Anyways, don't base combat capability on looks. Afghan soldiers may look intimidating but they can't get past the concept that opening up on a target 150 yards away at full auto on an AK is not the most effective means. It looks scary but its not effective.

http://atwar.blogs.nytimes.com/2010/04/02/the-weakness-of-taliban-marksmanship/

People throughout history have paid the price for basing military effectiveness on appearances.

Like I said, some of the officers I know have a "classic" military appearance, others don't. But if you want to see manliness, get the guy who may not look traditionally manly but flies an F-16 or is an infantry company commander and can run the socks off of you vs. Expat bluster and the manliness gets sorted out pretty quickly. Go up for a spin with that geeky looking guy who happens to be an Air Force pilot and we'll see who is manly when you puke all over yourself and then blackout.

Of course there are the guys who got conscripted and are marking time and have little in the way of physical presence. That's going to happen when you have full national conscription.

Anyways, I talked to one of my students about the incident today and he postulated that what happened wasn't bullying or hazing (at least not in the traditional sense) but more akin to the silent treatment and the guy having no friends.

EDIT- the above reminds me of a local MMA/Boxing event I once went to. First fight was a boxing match between some tatted up biker and some Indian kid who looked like he worked the counter at the Kwik-E-Mart and had a gut. Fight starts and the biker comes out swinging haymakers left and right. But the biker was a brawler and the kid was a boxer. 90 seconds later the biker had hit the canvas 3 times and had no idea where he was. Later in the card you had a kid that looked like he studied computer science, complete with glasses. Gets in the ring against some guy who did hockey and decided to fight for a night. And to beat a point home, the hockey player could throw punches, the kid knew jiu-jitsu. Armbar first round, fight over, computer science guy wins, hockey player refuses to tap and wrecks his arm. Never judge the fight in someone based on how they look.
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le-paul



Joined: 07 Apr 2009
Location: dans la chambre

PostPosted: Tue Jun 24, 2014 4:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Steelrails wrote:
Who's Your Daddy? wrote:
jvalmer wrote:
If you guys want to know what Korean mandatory military service is like these days, just try talking to a young male teacher under 40.


When you walk down the street and look at Korean men post-military service they still seem like wimps. I'm always thankful the US Army is here. One US soldier could probably take 4 of them. [Some of the Korean high-schoolers here look tough though.]


What do you want them to do? Walk around in a semi-menacing fashion? It's civilian life, you're not supposed to look intimidating in a sane society.

Anyways, don't base combat capability on looks. Afghan soldiers may look intimidating but they can't get past the concept that opening up on a target 150 yards away at full auto on an AK is not the most effective means. It looks scary but its not effective.

http://atwar.blogs.nytimes.com/2010/04/02/the-weakness-of-taliban-marksmanship/

People throughout history have paid the price for basing military effectiveness on appearances.

Like I said, some of the officers I know have a "classic" military appearance, others don't. But if you want to see manliness, get the guy who may not look traditionally manly but flies an F-16 or is an infantry company commander and can run the socks off of you vs. Expat bluster and the manliness gets sorted out pretty quickly. Go up for a spin with that geeky looking guy who happens to be an Air Force pilot and we'll see who is manly when you puke all over yourself and then blackout.

Of course there are the guys who got conscripted and are marking time and have little in the way of physical presence. That's going to happen when you have full national conscription.

Anyways, I talked to one of my students about the incident today and he postulated that what happened wasn't bullying or hazing (at least not in the traditional sense) but more akin to the silent treatment and the guy having no friends.

EDIT- the above reminds me of a local MMA/Boxing event I once went to. First fight was a boxing match between some tatted up biker and some Indian kid who looked like he worked the counter at the Kwik-E-Mart and had a gut. Fight starts and the biker comes out swinging haymakers left and right. But the biker was a brawler and the kid was a boxer. 90 seconds later the biker had hit the canvas 3 times and had no idea where he was. Later in the card you had a kid that looked like he studied computer science, complete with glasses. Gets in the ring against some guy who did hockey and decided to fight for a night. And to beat a point home, the hockey player could throw punches, the kid knew jiu-jitsu. Armbar first round, fight over, computer science guy wins, hockey player refuses to tap and wrecks his arm. Never judge the fight in someone based on how they look.


Like I said, some of the officers I know have a "classic" military appearance, others don't. But if you want to see manliness, get the guy who may not look traditionally manly but flies an F-16 or is an infantry company commander and can run the socks off of you vs. Expat bluster and the manliness gets sorted out pretty quickly. Go up for a spin with that geeky looking guy who happens to be an Air Force pilot and we'll see who is manly when you puke all over yourself and then blackout.

1/ being able to cope with g force is more to do with - genetics, training, and general fitness than manliness. that point you made is just silly.


Anyways, I talked to one of my students about the incident today and he postulated that what happened wasn't bullying or hazing (at least not in the traditional sense) but more akin to the silent treatment and the guy having no friends.


I love how SR collects evidence - "I talked to someone". That would normally suggest a person has the gullibility and suggestibility of a preschooler.

Anyway, assuming for a minute that ( with your sample size of one) your correct and it was simple 'silent treatment', wouldnt that be some kind of emotional abuse? If you ignored a child of yours everyday, for example, would you consider that good parenting? i think its what people would term 'passive aggressive'.
I think you could argue that he was being bullied if that was the case.



Well there's the natural amount of stuff that goes on when you get a bunch of men together and amplify it with a military setting.

You forgot to mention that they are also Koreans - and using the SR method of a sample size of 'everything my eyes can see' (which makes my argument more valid than yours), Ive noticed that bulling is frequent from an early age and seems to manifest itself more from the age of around 11/12 in koreans, peaking in high school.


I'm sure some hazing goes on amongst private soldiers (and I'm sure in some cases its relatively benign and in others can be bad) when not under watch, but the officers and NCOs do not carry out such behaviour and do not tolerate it. Every one of my officer students during conversation class has talked about encouraging their troops through positive means, not through hazing, beatings, and other stuff like that.

Yeah, just like everyone of my house wife students sits in front of me and tells me what a great husband she has and life is wonderful bowl of rose petals and puppy dogs tongues.

Again, using the SR method, I have to believe her because people never tell lies, never try to save face, love to invite foreigners into their deepest secrets so we can know the inner workings of their culture.
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optik404



Joined: 24 Jun 2008

PostPosted: Tue Jun 24, 2014 5:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

My Korean BFF told me about his time in the military. I think he went in 00 or maybe 01. He was put in some elite unit where they don't have to wear uniforms (because of his family background, political), they could leave base any time they wanted, etc.

Said they had one guy that was hazed a ton and he tried to kill himself. When they found the guy in the barracks bleeding, the ranking officer started beating him, they got him to the hospital and he lived. My friend snitched on the ranking officer about the hazing and beating and the guy had everyone ignore my friend for a year. Nobody talked to him, but they would secretly drop him notes and choco pies Laughing
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jvalmer



Joined: 06 Jun 2003

PostPosted: Tue Jun 24, 2014 5:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

optik404 wrote:
My Korean BFF told me about his time in the military. I think he went in 00 or maybe 01. He was put in some elite unit where they don't have to wear uniforms (because of his family background, political), they could leave base any time they wanted, etc.

Said they had one guy that was hazed a ton and he tried to kill himself. When they found the guy in the barracks bleeding, the ranking officer started beating him, they got him to the hospital and he lived. My friend snitched on the ranking officer about the hazing and beating and the guy had everyone ignore my friend for a year. Nobody talked to him, but they would secretly drop him notes and choco pies Laughing

You sure it's a ranking officer? Not a ranking draftee soldier?

Draftees are usually just promoted according to time served. Apparently, it gets a little awkward if the ranking soldier is younger than the lower ranking soldier. Supposedly it's one of the small advantages if a guy serves later, a young ranking soldier won't boss an older guy around much.
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KimchiNinja



Joined: 01 May 2012
Location: Gangnam

PostPosted: Tue Jun 24, 2014 6:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

hellofaniceguy wrote:
Old Painless wrote:
They should ban the army, then there would be no guns in Korea.


People were killing each other and mass killings by a single person have been going on LONG before guns were invented! Makes no difference; guns or no guns.


The statistics do not show that, the statistics show more people die in societies that have more guns present. Stop making stuff up. Thanks.
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