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le-paul
Joined: 07 Apr 2009
Location: dans la chambre
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 Posted: Sun Jul 13, 2014 9:08 am Post subject: |
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| optik404 wrote: |
| Why do you care what a beggar does with your money after you willingly hand it over? |
I dont care, and neither should you... |
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Stain
Joined: 08 Jan 2014
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| Posted: Sun Jul 13, 2014 9:12 am Post subject: |
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| Religious people don't need these things. If they do use them, then their religion is false. |
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Steelrails
Joined: 12 Mar 2009
Location: Earth, Solar System
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| Posted: Sun Jul 13, 2014 2:29 pm Post subject: |
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| Religious people don't need these things. If they do use them, then their religion is false. |
Isn't that based on the tenets of their religion, rather than your private mandates?
Are you saying the only legitimate religious people are the Amish?
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Im trying to argue that its wrong when the money comes from donations that were given under the pretence (or at least misconception), that they were going to be used for other purposes (eg restoration/charity).
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Well, many donations to Buddhist monks can be thought of in terms of tithes, rather than donations.
For example, when you tithe to a church you expect the money to be used for a variety of purposes, from maintenance and upkeep, to charity, to outreach and evangelizing, to providing your ordained members with income to house themselves and support what family they have, and to carry out their functions.
A smartphone can more easily enable a pastor to carry out his religious functions by making him more easily available for spiritual consultation as well as helping him to do things like send emails and texts, messages on services like kakao, tweet verses of the day, store hymns on his phone that serve to inspire, send pictures to members to brighten your day, use a daily planner, better track finances in a digital ledger, jot down ideas for sermons, have access to literature, read spiritual ebooks, GPS and navigation for finding the small group meeting at whatever coffee shop they are at, etc. etc.
These are all functions which I assume are previously "acceptable" in their analog method. Now they have been condensed into digital form that fits in your pocket. Again, just because something is new and unfamiliar to you, doesn't make it wrong. |
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le-paul
Joined: 07 Apr 2009
Location: dans la chambre
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| Posted: Sun Jul 13, 2014 3:37 pm Post subject: |
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A Mercedes and a billion won apartment are unfamiliar to me, and i don't think pastors should have those, either - you obviously do.
And in the meantime, the liberated Korean version of monks can keep on raping and gambling... |
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Fox
Joined: 04 Mar 2009
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| Posted: Sun Jul 13, 2014 3:44 pm Post subject: |
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| le-paul wrote: |
| These people are the last bastion of moral society, and to be honest, I expect a little more from them - if only for that reason. |
I don't think that's unfair, I just think cellular phones are a strange place at which to draw the line. Your big issue on that account seems to be the idea that they're paid for with donation money, but what if they were instead paid for with temple stay fees? Or with tour guide fees? Or even received as a gift? Monks have families like anyone else, what if the fellow's brother pays for his smartphone so they can keep in touch? When you talk about expensive cars, gambling, or sexual escapades, I can see your point, and I think other people in this thread can as well. It's the little things like smart phones and shoes which are more ambiguous. |
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le-paul
Joined: 07 Apr 2009
Location: dans la chambre
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| Posted: Sun Jul 13, 2014 4:45 pm Post subject: |
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| Fox wrote: |
| le-paul wrote: |
| These people are the last bastion of moral society, and to be honest, I expect a little more from them - if only for that reason. |
I don't think that's unfair, I just think cellular phones are a strange place at which to draw the line. Your big issue on that account seems to be the idea that they're paid for with donation money, but what if they were instead paid for with temple stay fees? Or with tour guide fees? Or even received as a gift? Monks have families like anyone else, what if the fellow's brother pays for his smartphone so they can keep in touch? When you talk about expensive cars, gambling, or sexual escapades, I can see your point, and I think other people in this thread can as well. It's the little things like smart phones and shoes which are more ambiguous. |
Well you're right. I think the issue is with this, as in most ethical decisions (vegetarianism, capital punishment etc.), is drawing a line somewhere.
I sort of agree with Richard Dawkin's view on this one though (he was specifically talking about religion at the time, however), that people who sit on the fence are the worst type of offenders - there's too much room for, well, humanness (as weve seen in the OP and the popes recent comments about pedophiles etc.). |
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Steelrails
Joined: 12 Mar 2009
Location: Earth, Solar System
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| Posted: Mon Jul 14, 2014 3:06 am Post subject: |
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| le-paul wrote: |
A Mercedes and a billion won apartment are unfamiliar to me, and i don't think pastors should have those, either - you obviously do.
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A Mercedes is functionally equivalent to a Ford Taurus. A billion won apartment is functionally equivalent to a 3 bedroom for $1200 a month. I don't think pastors should have those (unless its in a country where beat up old Mercedes are the norm, but that's not an apt comparison. A smartphone is not functionally equivalent to a cell phone.
A smartphone is a unique device whose functions are not replicated by the devices you compare them too. A desktop computer does not have its portability. A music player does not have the camera function. The digital camera can't function as an ebook reader. A smartphone combines all of those with internet access and a host of applications to create a unique product. While certain models of smartphones exist which may differentiate in cost, the difference between a smartphone and a normal cell phone is the difference between a typewriter and a computer. It is a quantum leap in functionality.
In essence, you are someone clinging to a computer and shaking your fist at all the people who have computers and treating them as marks of luxury, when in fact they are commonplace. Just because you have decided to be a Luddite/cheap about smartphones, doesn't make them evil.
Saying a smartphone is bad is like saying a Leatherman is a luxury because instead you should just carry a screwdriver, a knife, a bottle opener, a file, pliers, wire cutters, and wire strippers. It's not a luxury, it's just compacting things into a more portable and multi-functional form.
| Quote: |
| And in the meantime, the liberated Korean version of monks can keep on raping and gambling... |
Since when did endorsing monk smartphone use equate to an endorsement of rape and gambling? Also, since when did we start judging groups as a whole based on the actions of a few? |
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RangerMcGreggor
Joined: 12 Jan 2011
Location: Somewhere in Korea
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| Posted: Mon Jul 14, 2014 6:48 pm Post subject: |
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| le-paul wrote: |
When I see a monk begging for money in the street or selling chewing gum, |
Those aren't monks but con artists. And I don't mean in the "no true scotsman sense" but in a literal "they aren't part of any monk group but are pretending to be" sense. Monks aren't allowed to beg for money and you only see this in touristy places for a reason.
Do you have problems with non-profits paying their workers? Or preachers using smartphones? Then you should have no problems with monks doing this. Monks are not just there to sit in the temple, starve and find nirvana. In Korea, they are also required to do many services for the public and having a smartphone makes it far easier to do that since they allow them to contact many people easily, keep organized and stay in touch with what's going on. |
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le-paul
Joined: 07 Apr 2009
Location: dans la chambre
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| Posted: Mon Jul 14, 2014 7:01 pm Post subject: |
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| RangerMcGreggor wrote: |
| le-paul wrote: |
When I see a monk begging for money in the street or selling chewing gum, |
Those aren't monks but con artists. And I don't mean in the "no true scotsman sense" but in a literal "they aren't part of any monk group but are pretending to be" sense. Monks aren't allowed to beg for money and you only see this in touristy places for a reason.
Do you have problems with non-profits paying their workers? Or preachers using smartphones? Then you should have no problems with monks doing this. Monks are not just there to sit in the temple, starve and find nirvana. In Korea, they are also required to do many services for the public and having a smartphone makes it far easier to do that since they allow them to contact many people easily, keep organized and stay in touch with what's going on. |
We don't agree on this point so there is no point discussing it any further - especially when the main point of the argument seems to be to get the last word in. |
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Steelrails
Joined: 12 Mar 2009
Location: Earth, Solar System
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| Posted: Mon Jul 14, 2014 7:29 pm Post subject: |
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| le-paul wrote: |
| RangerMcGreggor wrote: |
| le-paul wrote: |
When I see a monk begging for money in the street or selling chewing gum, |
Those aren't monks but con artists. And I don't mean in the "no true scotsman sense" but in a literal "they aren't part of any monk group but are pretending to be" sense. Monks aren't allowed to beg for money and you only see this in touristy places for a reason.
Do you have problems with non-profits paying their workers? Or preachers using smartphones? Then you should have no problems with monks doing this. Monks are not just there to sit in the temple, starve and find nirvana. In Korea, they are also required to do many services for the public and having a smartphone makes it far easier to do that since they allow them to contact many people easily, keep organized and stay in touch with what's going on. |
We don't agree on this point so there is no point discussing it any further - especially when the main point of the argument seems to be to get the last word in. |
In other words “Its pretty obvious I have no logical basis for my argument against smartphones but rather than admit to an irrational dislike of them, I'll just plug my ears." |
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le-paul
Joined: 07 Apr 2009
Location: dans la chambre
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| Posted: Mon Jul 14, 2014 10:10 pm Post subject: |
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| no, it means Im not some kind of insecure freak like you who has to pick arguments with everyone in order to make myself feel good |
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Lucas
Joined: 11 Sep 2012
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| Posted: Mon Jul 14, 2014 10:49 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
| I'll just plug my ears." |
Maybe try plugging all of your other orifices’ too. |
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RangerMcGreggor
Joined: 12 Jan 2011
Location: Somewhere in Korea
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| Posted: Tue Jul 15, 2014 12:16 am Post subject: |
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| le-paul wrote: |
We don't agree on this point so there is no point discussing it any further - especially when the main point of the argument seems to be to get the last word in. |
Actually, I'm legitimately interested in how you answer the last part. Do you have the same application for preachers, priests or rabbis? |
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