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Malaysian passenger plane shot down in Ukraine near border
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Chaparrastique



Joined: 01 Jan 2014

PostPosted: Sat Jul 19, 2014 8:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Leon wrote:

Forget democracy


What an astonishing thing to say. Its funny how the west shelves their supposed values the moment it is politically expedient for them to do so (just so long as people far away pay the price).

Quote:
and tell me how the people, or the world, benefits from the creation of another gangster separatist region that no one recognizes and only exists due to support from Moscow and criminal proceeds.


This conflict would not be happening if western politicians had not decided to try and grab Ukraine, extend the EU and their sphere of politico-monetary influence. They meddled.

East Ukraine is not "a gangster state that exists only due to support from Moscow", it is the economic powerhouse of Ukraine- where all the factories and industry are.
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Leon



Joined: 31 May 2010

PostPosted: Sun Jul 20, 2014 4:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Chaparrastique wrote:
Leon wrote:

Forget democracy


What an astonishing thing to say. Its funny how the west shelves their supposed values the moment it is politically expedient for them to do so (just so long as people far away pay the price).

Quote:
and tell me how the people, or the world, benefits from the creation of another gangster separatist region that no one recognizes and only exists due to support from Moscow and criminal proceeds.


This conflict would not be happening if western politicians had not decided to try and grab Ukraine, extend the EU and their sphere of politico-monetary influence. They meddled.

East Ukraine is not "a gangster state that exists only due to support from Moscow", it is the economic powerhouse of Ukraine- where all the factories and industry are.


Yes, and if no one recognizes that state or trades with it except Moscow, then those factories and industry are not going to be worth much. If you look at the other breakaway regions only supported by Russia, especially the one in Moldova, the maybe you would rethink things a bit, or is it that Eastern Ukraine is unique for some unknowable reason?

But none that is meaningful compared to "the west meddled they are hypocrits I don't like the west."
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Kuros



Joined: 27 Apr 2004

PostPosted: Sun Jul 20, 2014 5:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Leon wrote:
Chaparrastique wrote:
Leon wrote:

Forget democracy


What an astonishing thing to say. Its funny how the west shelves their supposed values the moment it is politically expedient for them to do so (just so long as people far away pay the price).

Quote:
and tell me how the people, or the world, benefits from the creation of another gangster separatist region that no one recognizes and only exists due to support from Moscow and criminal proceeds.


This conflict would not be happening if western politicians had not decided to try and grab Ukraine, extend the EU and their sphere of politico-monetary influence. They meddled.

East Ukraine is not "a gangster state that exists only due to support from Moscow", it is the economic powerhouse of Ukraine- where all the factories and industry are.


Yes, and if no one recognizes that state or trades with it except Moscow, then those factories and industry are not going to be worth much. If you look at the other breakaway regions only supported by Russia, especially the one in Moldova, the maybe you would rethink things a bit, or is it that Eastern Ukraine is unique for some unknowable reason?

But none that is meaningful compared to "the west meddled they are hypocrits I don't like the west."


Even Chaparrastique cannot explain how a new country in Eastern Europe would help anyone.
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Chaparrastique



Joined: 01 Jan 2014

PostPosted: Sun Jul 20, 2014 8:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Kuros wrote:
Leon wrote:
Chaparrastique wrote:
Leon wrote:

Forget democracy


What an astonishing thing to say. Its funny how the west shelves their supposed values the moment it is politically expedient for them to do so (just so long as people far away pay the price).

Quote:
and tell me how the people, or the world, benefits from the creation of another gangster separatist region that no one recognizes and only exists due to support from Moscow and criminal proceeds.


This conflict would not be happening if western politicians had not decided to try and grab Ukraine, extend the EU and their sphere of politico-monetary influence. They meddled.

East Ukraine is not "a gangster state that exists only due to support from Moscow", it is the economic powerhouse of Ukraine- where all the factories and industry are.


Yes, and if no one recognizes that state or trades with it except Moscow, then those factories and industry are not going to be worth much. If you look at the other breakaway regions only supported by Russia, especially the one in Moldova, the maybe you would rethink things a bit, or is it that Eastern Ukraine is unique for some unknowable reason?

But none that is meaningful compared to "the west meddled they are hypocrits I don't like the west."


Even Chaparrastique cannot explain how a new country in Eastern Europe would help anyone.


It would help the east Ukrainians- an industrious people- who do not wish to subsume their identity with, be oppressed or held back by the ethnically different rural peasant Ukrainians.

An independent east Ukraine would basically be a part of Russia in all but name. Economic sanctions on Russia will fade away in time...and so they should. We have reached a chilling precedent when the US can isolate any country that disagrees with it via their poncey sycophants in the EU.

Western political thinking is stuck in the cold war, they still automatically view Russia as a great enemy that must be stomped into the ground forever just to make sure its dead.

In reality Russia had long shed communism, had adopted a free market, was making reforms, was gradually aligning with the free world, and improving relations with the west.
That stopped when Washington decided on a quick land grab in Ukraine.

Tell me leon what ever would you do if you didn't have CNN to tell you how to think?
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Leon



Joined: 31 May 2010

PostPosted: Sun Jul 20, 2014 8:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Chaparrastique wrote:
Kuros wrote:
Leon wrote:
Chaparrastique wrote:
Leon wrote:

Forget democracy


What an astonishing thing to say. Its funny how the west shelves their supposed values the moment it is politically expedient for them to do so (just so long as people far away pay the price).

Quote:
and tell me how the people, or the world, benefits from the creation of another gangster separatist region that no one recognizes and only exists due to support from Moscow and criminal proceeds.


This conflict would not be happening if western politicians had not decided to try and grab Ukraine, extend the EU and their sphere of politico-monetary influence. They meddled.

East Ukraine is not "a gangster state that exists only due to support from Moscow", it is the economic powerhouse of Ukraine- where all the factories and industry are.


Yes, and if no one recognizes that state or trades with it except Moscow, then those factories and industry are not going to be worth much. If you look at the other breakaway regions only supported by Russia, especially the one in Moldova, the maybe you would rethink things a bit, or is it that Eastern Ukraine is unique for some unknowable reason?

But none that is meaningful compared to "the west meddled they are hypocrits I don't like the west."


Even Chaparrastique cannot explain how a new country in Eastern Europe would help anyone.


It would help the east Ukrainians- an industrious people- who do not wish to subsume their identity with, be oppressed or held back by the ethnically different rural peasant Ukrainians.

An independent east Ukraine would basically be a part of Russia in all but name. Economic sanctions on Russia will fade away in time...and so they should. We have reached a chilling precedent when the US can isolate any country that disagrees with it via their poncey sycophants in the EU.

Western political thinking is stuck in the cold war, they still automatically view Russia as a great enemy that must be stomped into the ground forever just to make sure its dead.

In reality Russia had long shed communism, had adopted a free market, was making reforms, was gradually aligning with the free world, and improving relations with the west.
That stopped when Washington decided on a quick land grab in Ukraine.

Tell me leon what ever would you do if you didn't have CNN to tell you how to think?


For the record, I have not watched CNN, except perhaps in waiting rooms or hotel rooms, ever in my life. You say that Eastern Ukraine would basically be part of Russia, but that is not really true. None of the other breakaway regions are like that, so why would this be different? Russia hasn't even recognized all of these other places, despite them asking for recognition, so why are you making these unfounded assumptions?

Tell me, is the world better off because we have Transnistria, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transnistria

or South Ossetia, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/South_Ossetia

or Abkhazia, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abkhazia

Most of what you said in your last paragraph is not true. Relations with Russia have not been improving- despite Bush seeing Putin's soul- Russia has not been aligning with the Free World, it has been trying to build back up its old sphere of influence through the CIS and the SCO, and has not been making actual reforms.

You accuse me of blindly following CNN, but I have no idea where you get your information from. Is this the stuff they are saying at RT? Is this just what you kind of assume?
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geldedgoat



Joined: 05 Mar 2009

PostPosted: Sun Jul 20, 2014 5:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Kuros wrote:
Even Chaparrastique cannot explain how a new country in Eastern Europe would help anyone.


Be fair. That's one of the more ridiculous questions Leon has asked around here, so it's not entirely unreasonable for Chaparrastique to dodge it.
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Leon



Joined: 31 May 2010

PostPosted: Sun Jul 20, 2014 5:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

geldedgoat wrote:
Kuros wrote:
Even Chaparrastique cannot explain how a new country in Eastern Europe would help anyone.


Be fair. That's one of the more ridiculous questions Leon has asked around here, so it's not entirely unreasonable for Chaparrastique to dodge it.


Why, it cuts straight to the heart of the issue. But are you sure you are the best judge of reasonableness? Or will you just make snide comments without explaining yourself.
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Chaparrastique



Joined: 01 Jan 2014

PostPosted: Sun Jul 20, 2014 6:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Leon wrote:
geldedgoat wrote:
Kuros wrote:
Even Chaparrastique cannot explain how a new country in Eastern Europe would help anyone.


Be fair. That's one of the more ridiculous questions Leon has asked around here, so it's not entirely unreasonable for Chaparrastique to dodge it.


Why, it cuts straight to the heart of the issue. But are you sure you are the best judge of reasonableness? Or will you just make snide comments without explaining yourself.


It is indeed a very stupid question.

According to western ideals, democracy always "helps people". So its hard to fathom why suddenly they are against the will of millions of Russians in Crimea and east Ukraine who have overwhelmingly expressed their wish to be separate.
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Leon



Joined: 31 May 2010

PostPosted: Sun Jul 20, 2014 6:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Chaparrastique wrote:
Leon wrote:
geldedgoat wrote:
Kuros wrote:
Even Chaparrastique cannot explain how a new country in Eastern Europe would help anyone.


Be fair. That's one of the more ridiculous questions Leon has asked around here, so it's not entirely unreasonable for Chaparrastique to dodge it.


Why, it cuts straight to the heart of the issue. But are you sure you are the best judge of reasonableness? Or will you just make snide comments without explaining yourself.


It is indeed a very stupid question.

According to western ideals, democracy always "helps people". So its hard to fathom why suddenly they are against the will of millions of Russians in Crimea and east Ukraine who have overwhelmingly expressed their wish to be separate.


Now I'm some disembodied manifestation of western ideals? Move beyond your petty ideological grudge against the West and look at the issue pragmatically. Or call questions you can't answer stupid and point out obvious points like states are hypocritical which has always been true, and is far from limited to the west.
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Fox



Joined: 04 Mar 2009

PostPosted: Sun Jul 20, 2014 7:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Leon wrote:
Move beyond your petty ideological grudge against the West and look at the issue pragmatically.


You say, "Yes, and if no one recognizes that state or trades with it except Moscow, then those factories and industry are not going to be worth much." That's probably true, so instead of refusing to recognize or trade with them, surely recognizing them and trading with them seems the most pragmatic, doesn't it? Keeping their productivity intact in order to help them develop into something stable?
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Leon



Joined: 31 May 2010

PostPosted: Sun Jul 20, 2014 7:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Fox wrote:
Leon wrote:
Move beyond your petty ideological grudge against the West and look at the issue pragmatically.


You say, "Yes, and if no one recognizes that state or trades with it except Moscow, then those factories and industry are not going to be worth much." That's probably true, so instead of refusing to recognize or trade with them, surely recognizing them and trading with them seems the most pragmatic, doesn't it? Keeping their productivity intact in order to help them develop into something stable?


Perhaps, some of the other places mentioned at this point are beyond saving and are out and out criminal states. Eastern Ukraine would probably have a difficult time doing that after what just happened recently. For other countries, trade with Eastern Ukraine is probably not significant enough to justify trading with a rogue breakaway province. The two in Georgia that I mentioned are dirt poor and live off of Russian subsidies and the one in Moldova is run like a personal kingdom and makes money from arms sales and trafficking of humans.

Ukraine will always be more important to the world than a breakaway region, and no pragmatic state would give up relations with Ukraine to develop relations with east Ukraine. It may or may not be fair, but it is what will happen.
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Fox



Joined: 04 Mar 2009

PostPosted: Sun Jul 20, 2014 7:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Leon wrote:

Ukraine will always be more important to the world than a breakaway region, and no pragmatic state would give up relations with Ukraine to develop relations with east Ukraine.


I don't think Ukraine is really in a position to dictate to the world in that regard. If the West collectively decided to acknowledge these breakaway regions instead of ostracizing them, the Ukrainian government would (perhaps poutily) end up sucking it up, because they'd have little real choice. If the United States can maintain a working relationship with China despite trading with Taiwan, the States and Western Europe can maintain a working relationship with Ukraine despite trading with these little breakaways. If they wanted to anyway, which they don't, which is what it's really about.
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Chaparrastique



Joined: 01 Jan 2014

PostPosted: Sun Jul 20, 2014 8:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Leon wrote:
out and out criminal states.

rogue breakaway province.


Whats your definition of a rogue? Anyone who disagrees with you?

How come Kosovo is not a "rogue breakaway criminal state" to you yet Donetsk is?

Self-serving western bias and hypocrisy is too much at times.

Quote:
Ukraine will always be more important to the world than a breakaway region


Ukraine is itself a breakaway region, genius. it was formerly part of the Russian empire.

But for you, anyone who breaks away from Russia is legitimate but anyone who wants to become part of russia is a "rogue".
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Leon



Joined: 31 May 2010

PostPosted: Mon Jul 21, 2014 1:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Fox wrote:
Leon wrote:

Ukraine will always be more important to the world than a breakaway region, and no pragmatic state would give up relations with Ukraine to develop relations with east Ukraine.


I don't think Ukraine is really in a position to dictate to the world in that regard. If the West collectively decided to acknowledge these breakaway regions instead of ostracizing them, the Ukrainian government would (perhaps poutily) end up sucking it up, because they'd have little real choice. If the United States can maintain a working relationship with China despite trading with Taiwan, the States and Western Europe can maintain a working relationship with Ukraine despite trading with these little breakaways. If they wanted to anyway, which they don't, which is what it's really about.


Again, why would they want to have relations with these guys, especially considering all the violence they have instigated, which is also true for the other regions. Also, these places are formed as a reaction against the west, and are instigated/sponsored by Russia against countries that are aligning with The west in some way. Why, given these circumstances, would the west want to work with these places?

Your reference to the PRC and ROC is not apt. The PRC is far too big and important to ignore, and when we opened to them they were our enemies enemy. The opposite is true of these places.


Last edited by Leon on Mon Jul 21, 2014 2:25 am; edited 1 time in total
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Leon



Joined: 31 May 2010

PostPosted: Mon Jul 21, 2014 2:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Chaparrastique wrote:
Leon wrote:
out and out criminal states.

rogue breakaway province.


Whats your definition of a rogue? Anyone who disagrees with you?

How come Kosovo is not a "rogue breakaway criminal state" to you yet Donetsk is?

Self-serving western bias and hypocrisy is too much at times.

Quote:
Ukraine will always be more important to the world than a breakaway region


Ukraine is itself a breakaway region, genius. it was formerly part of the Russian empire.

But for you, anyone who breaks away from Russia is legitimate but anyone who wants to become part of russia is a "rogue".


This is a bit funny coming from someone who accused me of asking a stupid question earlier. Kosovo suffered from genocide, the group in Eastern Ukraine said that they were scared of Nazis, but have not been targeted or killed by the regime systematically before their rebellion. So you have been watching RT?

You are really hyper defensive. Rogue has to do with a sense of legitimacy to the wider world, I'm not dealing with my personal normative opinions here. Donetsk will never be accepted by the wider world, it wil be, if it survives, in a state of limbo completely dependent on Moscow. Nobody, except a few people who will become rich as smugglers or leaders, or maybe Moscow who wants a buffer, will benefit from this. Russia is not going to let these people join Russia proper.
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