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Israel and war crimes
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Weigookin74



Joined: 26 Oct 2009

PostPosted: Sat Aug 09, 2014 5:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

While I don't agree with this guy on everything, he does make at least some good points.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zs3JEJhJvjA
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Kuros



Joined: 27 Apr 2004

PostPosted: Sat Aug 09, 2014 6:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Weigookin74 wrote:
It's so ironic that Europeans are so anti Israeli considering it was their centuries of discrimination and poor treatment capped by the holocaust that drove them all there to found their own country in the first place. The hatred is alive and well.

I'd say you shouldn't fire rockets into another country but that point seems lost on some people.


I'd say you shouldn't fire artillery and missiles into UN-run schools and hospitals, certainly not seven times, but somebody will tell me that Hamas stowed missiles in a school one time.
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Kuros



Joined: 27 Apr 2004

PostPosted: Sat Aug 09, 2014 8:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Weigookin74 wrote:
While I don't agree with this guy on everything, he does make at least some good points.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zs3JEJhJvjA


Quote:
Bill Maher: Israel has the opportunity to kill way more, and they do not.



They could launch a nuclear weapon and solve the problem in one day, but they do not! Nevertheless, they have to respond because Hamas's charter says it wants to wipe Israel off the map, and that could totally happen because Iran says bad things about Israel some days.

Quote:
Jane Harmon (D-California): The Palestinians made very bad choices of their own leaders.


If that is relevant than all American voters (who voted before 2001) who died in New York's Towers in September of 2001 bear some responsibility for their own deaths, because look what Osama Bin Laden said:

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2002/nov/24/theobserver

Quote:
(3) You may then dispute that all the above does not justify aggression against civilians, for crimes they did not commit and offenses in which they did not partake:

(a) This argument contradicts your continuous repetition that America is the land of freedom, and its leaders in this world. Therefore, the American people are the ones who choose their government by way of their own free will; a choice which stems from their agreement to its policies. Thus the American people have chosen, consented to, and affirmed their support for the Israeli oppression of the Palestinians, the occupation and usurpation of their land, and its continuous killing, torture, punishment and expulsion of the Palestinians. The American people have the ability and choice to refuse the policies of their Government and even to change it if they want.

(b) The American people are the ones who pay the taxes which fund the planes that bomb us in Afghanistan, the tanks that strike and destroy our homes in Palestine, the armies which occupy our lands in the Arabian Gulf, and the fleets which ensure the blockade of Iraq. These tax dollars are given to Israel for it to continue to attack us and penetrate our lands. So the American people are the ones who fund the attacks against us, and they are the ones who oversee the expenditure of these monies in the way they wish, through their elected candidates.
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Titus



Joined: 19 May 2012

PostPosted: Sat Aug 09, 2014 10:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jane Harmon is an actual Israeli agent and a traitor to the USA.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jane_Harman#2009_Wiretap.2FAIPAC_Allegations
http://original.antiwar.com/justin/2009/04/23/the-shamelessness-of-jane-harman/

http://original.antiwar.com/justin/2009/04/21/harmanic-convergence/


http://original.antiwar.com/justin/2009/04/28/calamity-jane-harman-shoots-herself-in-the-foot/

Nice and diverse panel, Bill.
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Kuros



Joined: 27 Apr 2004

PostPosted: Sat Aug 09, 2014 11:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Titus wrote:
Jane Harmon is an actual Israeli agent and a traitor to the USA.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jane_Harman#2009_Wiretap.2FAIPAC_Allegations
http://original.antiwar.com/justin/2009/04/23/the-shamelessness-of-jane-harman/

http://original.antiwar.com/justin/2009/04/21/harmanic-convergence/


http://original.antiwar.com/justin/2009/04/28/calamity-jane-harman-shoots-herself-in-the-foot/

Nice and diverse panel, Bill.


Holy crap. I really do learn something new everyday.
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andrewchon



Joined: 16 Nov 2008
Location: In my goshiwon cubicle. Seeking moksha.

PostPosted: Sun Aug 10, 2014 3:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Kuros wrote:

Holy crap. I really do learn something new everyday.


Yeah, that you buy half-truth at a drop of a hat. Laughing
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Chaparrastique



Joined: 01 Jan 2014

PostPosted: Sun Aug 10, 2014 4:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Titus wrote:
Jane Harmon is an actual Israeli agent and a traitor to the USA.


Helping a strategic ally in the Middle east cannot be regarded as "traitorous" to US interests.

The US has only benefitted from its alliance with Israel.

Israel contributes substantially to the US in the domains of defense and intelligence, economic competitiveness, sustainability and security. Numerous military and cyber technologies have been developed in Israel and supplied to the US.

Neither has the alliance harmed US relations with Arab states: trade and military co-operation have flourished in recent decades.
http://www.washingtoninstitute.org/policy-analysis/view/asset-test-how-the-united-states-benefits-from-its-alliance-with-israel
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Titus



Joined: 19 May 2012

PostPosted: Sun Aug 10, 2014 5:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Chaparrastique wrote:
Titus wrote:
Jane Harmon is an actual Israeli agent and a traitor to the USA.


Helping a strategic ally in the Middle east cannot be regarded as "traitorous" to US interests.


Israel is not a strategic ally. It offers absolutely nothing of any benefit what so ever to the United States.

Though, even if I accepted your premise that Israel is an ally, it still does not follow that all intelligence is to be shared with it. The FBI was investigating AIPAC for many years.

Here's some work from our Strategic Ally:

http://original.antiwar.com/smith-grant/2012/07/03/netanyahu-worked-inside-nuclear-smuggling-ring/

Quote:
Netanyahu Worked Inside Nuclear Smuggling Ring


xxxx

How can Bill Maher have that woman on to talk about Israel and not mention that the NSA caught her double-dealing for Israel? This is another low-point for American media. It's incredible.
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Titus



Joined: 19 May 2012

PostPosted: Sun Aug 10, 2014 5:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Chaparrastique wrote:

Neither has the alliance harmed US relations with Arab states: trade and military co-operation have flourished in recent decades.
http://www.washingtoninstitute.org/policy-analysis/view/asset-test-how-the-united-states-benefits-from-its-alliance-with-israel


Stanely Fisher, who is now at the Fed:

http://www.irmep.org/fischer_aipac.htm

Quote:
Stanley Fischer was born in Northern Rhodesia in 1943. He studied at London School of Economics and received a PhD in economics from MIT. He taught and chaired the MIT economics department and co-authored a leading macroeconomics textbook with Rudiger Dornbusch. Fischer joined the World Bank in 1988 and became the first deputy managing director of the International Monetary Fund (IMF) in 1994. He oversaw emergency bailout lending and austerity programs over Mexico, Thailand, Indonesia, Russia, Brazil and Argentina. High flying Citigroup—under the helm of Sanford "Sandy" Weill—recruited Fischer in 2002. There he rose to become vice president with a seven-figure pay package.

Israel

Fischer has not only been an ardent supporter of Israel, his professional efforts began when he took sabbatical leave to Israel in 1972 and 1976-1977. He was a visiting scholar at the Bank of Israel in 1980. More importantly for Israel, Stanley Fischer won an appointment to the Reagan administration's U.S.-Israel Joint Economic Discussion Group that dealt with Israel's 1984-1985 economic crisis. In October of 1984, Israeli Prime Minister Shimon Peres arrived in Washington asking an initially reluctant Reagan Administration for an additional $1.5 billion in U.S. emergency funding—over and above the already-promised aid $5.6 billion aid package.[i] The help amounted to U.S. taxpayers funding each Israeli citizen $1,650. Another key component of the plan called for a largely unilateral lowering of U.S. tariffs and trade barriers to Israel, a program initially called "Duty Free Treatment for U.S. Imports from Israel" but later repackaged and sold as America's first "free trade" agreement. Over time the FTA reversed a previously balanced U.S.-Israel trading relationship for one that has produced a cumulative deficit to the U.S. that passed $100 billion in 2013. Seventy American industry groups opposed to the give-away in 1984 were disenfranchised when Israeli Economics Minister Dan Halpern and AIPAC illegally obtained a classified compendium of their industry, market and trade secrets to use against them in lobbying and public relations. An FBI espionage and theft of government property investigation was quashed before it could narrow in on those inside the U.S. government who delivered the secrets to Halpern.


^ This is what it means to have "flourishing" trade with Israel. No thanks.

xxxxx


IF any of you are interested in 8 hours of lectures about the Israeli Lobby please see the National Summit to Reassess the US - Israel Special Relationship:

Audio: http://natsummit.org/program.htm
Video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fu3AD0huKxU (CSPAN)

This lecture was particularly frustrating to hear: http://natsummit.org/transcripts/grant_smith.htm A brief history of unprosecuted Israeli foreign agent, smuggling and espionage cases.
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Chaparrastique



Joined: 01 Jan 2014

PostPosted: Sun Aug 10, 2014 6:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Titus wrote:

Here's some work from our Strategic Ally:

http://original.antiwar.com/smith-grant/2012/07/03/netanyahu-worked-inside-nuclear-smuggling-ring/



You really need to get off that rag.

Quote:
antiwar.com is not a legitimate source unless you're a far rightwing nativist inspired by Pat Buchanan and don't have a problem with flirtations or worse with anti-Semitism. Buchanan posts on there all the time, and Raimondo's a acolyte of Buchanan. Another ally of that crew is Jude Wanniski, who was the huckster who sold Ronald Reagan on the idiotic theory of "supply side" economics. Wanniski is a former Wall Street Journal editorial writer who denies that Saddam ever used gas against the Kurds and made overtures to Lyndon LaRouche, who defends the Nation of Islam against charges of anti-Semitism, and who left his role as an advisor to Steve Forbes, according to The Nation's David Corn, because he claimed that Forbes' advisors were white spremacists but then went to work advising that well-known advocate of racial harmony, Pat Buchanan.

Yes, I know, Juan Cole has articles posted on Antiwar.com. I respect Juan Cole, and have seen nothing to make me think he's an anti-Semite or someone who denies genocide. But I think it's a mark against him that he lends his good name to a site full of a bunch of rightwing loons.
http://www.dailykos.com/story/2005/07/09/129084/-Antiwar-com-Is-NOT-a-Legitimate-Source#



Quote:
There are fewer websites that are more anti-Semitic and anti-Israel than the Huffington Post, But AntiWar.com has earned both labels. Their "ringleader" Justin Raimondo has declared that Israel knew about the 7/7 bombings and 9/11 attacks before they happened. Pat Buchanan posts on there a lot as well. If that isn't enough evidence, check out this article.

Apparently the Huffington Post decided that they just weren't left-wing or anti-Israel enough so they decided to call up Adil E. Shamoo, an AntiWar.com columnist, to basically attack Israel using the same tired talking points
http://hpmonitor.blogspot.kr/2013/03/antiwarcom-arrives-on-huffington-post.html


Quote:
Anti-Semitism is suspicion of, hatred toward, or discrimination against Jews for reasons connected to their Jewish heritage. The term was coined by non-Jews in late 19th century Europe as a more scientific-sounding term for Judenhass ("Jew-hatred"). In recent years, as the libertarian movement has grown, so has the anti-Jewish movement within this clan of activists supposedly concerned with promoting liberty and freedom for all of humanity.


Libertarian Think-Tanks and Anti-Semitism

Libertarian think-tanks are notorious for pushing an anti-Israel agenda. Of course, one can distrust the Israeli government while also holding no hard feelings toward Jewish individuals. But it is difficult to imagine that U.S. think-tanks would focus so much on Israel when one considers the small percentage that foreign aid constitutes in the United States federal budget. (Less than one percent of the federal budget goes toward foreign aid.) Four "libertarian" think-tanks do exactly that -- and much worse.

Justin Raimondo, the prime mover-and-shaker behind the antiwar.com website (and whose main source of income is antiwar.com), blames Israel for the attack of September 11, 2001. Of Jews, Raimondo says, "The savage mind, however, works differently. Shorn of what we would recognize as a moral sense, the savage glories in his capacity for pitiless violence. It's a survival mechanism: in his world, red in tooth and claw, instilling fear in your opponent means winning more than half the battle. As a survival strategy, it's like the one inmate who mutters ominously to himself while exhibiting all the characteristics of a violent psychotic: the other prisoners give him plenty of space because they think he's liable to do anything. So, too, in the case of the Israelis, who are signaling their willingness to go to any lengths in order to instill the fear of their wrath far and wide." He also calls Israel a racist theocracy and a "shitty little country".
http://chelm.freeyellow.com/libertarianproblem.html
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Kuros



Joined: 27 Apr 2004

PostPosted: Sun Aug 10, 2014 7:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

andrewchon wrote:
Kuros wrote:

Holy crap. I really do learn something new everyday.


Yeah, that you buy half-truth at a drop of a hat. Laughing


If you have nothing substantive to add, don't post. This isn't the insipid Off-topic forum.
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Titus



Joined: 19 May 2012

PostPosted: Sun Aug 10, 2014 7:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Chaparrastique wrote:
Titus wrote:

Here's some work from our Strategic Ally:

http://original.antiwar.com/smith-grant/2012/07/03/netanyahu-worked-inside-nuclear-smuggling-ring/



You really need to get off that rag.

Quote:
antiwar.com is not a legitimate source unless you're a far rightwing nativist inspired by Pat Buchanan and don't have a problem with flirtations or worse with anti-Semitism. Buchanan posts on there all the time, and Raimondo's a acolyte of Buchanan. Another ally of that crew is Jude Wanniski, who was the huckster who sold Ronald Reagan on the idiotic theory of "supply side" economics. Wanniski is a former Wall Street Journal editorial writer who denies that Saddam ever used gas against the Kurds and made overtures to Lyndon LaRouche, who defends the Nation of Islam against charges of anti-Semitism, and who left his role as an advisor to Steve Forbes, according to The Nation's David Corn, because he claimed that Forbes' advisors were white spremacists but then went to work advising that well-known advocate of racial harmony, Pat Buchanan.

Yes, I know, Juan Cole has articles posted on Antiwar.com. I respect Juan Cole, and have seen nothing to make me think he's an anti-Semite or someone who denies genocide. But I think it's a mark against him that he lends his good name to a site full of a bunch of rightwing loons.
http://www.dailykos.com/story/2005/07/09/129084/-Antiwar-com-Is-NOT-a-Legitimate-Source#



Quote:
There are fewer websites that are more anti-Semitic and anti-Israel than the Huffington Post, But AntiWar.com has earned both labels. Their "ringleader" Justin Raimondo has declared that Israel knew about the 7/7 bombings and 9/11 attacks before they happened. Pat Buchanan posts on there a lot as well. If that isn't enough evidence, check out this article.

Apparently the Huffington Post decided that they just weren't left-wing or anti-Israel enough so they decided to call up Adil E. Shamoo, an AntiWar.com columnist, to basically attack Israel using the same tired talking points
http://hpmonitor.blogspot.kr/2013/03/antiwarcom-arrives-on-huffington-post.html


Quote:
Anti-Semitism is suspicion of, hatred toward, or discrimination against Jews for reasons connected to their Jewish heritage. The term was coined by non-Jews in late 19th century Europe as a more scientific-sounding term for Judenhass ("Jew-hatred"). In recent years, as the libertarian movement has grown, so has the anti-Jewish movement within this clan of activists supposedly concerned with promoting liberty and freedom for all of humanity.


Libertarian Think-Tanks and Anti-Semitism

Libertarian think-tanks are notorious for pushing an anti-Israel agenda. Of course, one can distrust the Israeli government while also holding no hard feelings toward Jewish individuals. But it is difficult to imagine that U.S. think-tanks would focus so much on Israel when one considers the small percentage that foreign aid constitutes in the United States federal budget. (Less than one percent of the federal budget goes toward foreign aid.) Four "libertarian" think-tanks do exactly that -- and much worse.

Justin Raimondo, the prime mover-and-shaker behind the antiwar.com website (and whose main source of income is antiwar.com), blames Israel for the attack of September 11, 2001. Of Jews, Raimondo says, "The savage mind, however, works differently. Shorn of what we would recognize as a moral sense, the savage glories in his capacity for pitiless violence. It's a survival mechanism: in his world, red in tooth and claw, instilling fear in your opponent means winning more than half the battle. As a survival strategy, it's like the one inmate who mutters ominously to himself while exhibiting all the characteristics of a violent psychotic: the other prisoners give him plenty of space because they think he's liable to do anything. So, too, in the case of the Israelis, who are signaling their willingness to go to any lengths in order to instill the fear of their wrath far and wide." He also calls Israel a racist theocracy and a "shitty little country".
http://chelm.freeyellow.com/libertarianproblem.html


The Grant F Smith articles I posted have as primary sources declassified documents from the FBI, etc. Raimondo used - primarly - Congressional Quarterly. Israeli partisans are at this point so outgunned substantively that they have left solely pejoratives and smearing. I want you to understand that this strategy is losing.

Key point from above:

Quote:
blames Israel for the attack of September 11, 2001.


^ Mohammad Atta wrote his will, and apparently made the decision to attack America, upon witnessing an Israeli assault on Lebanon.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mohamed_Atta
Quote:
On April 11, 1996, Atta signed his last will and testament at the mosque, officially declaring his Muslim beliefs and giving 18 instructions regarding his burial.[9][14] This was the day that Israel attacked Lebanon in Operation Grapes of Wrath, which outraged Atta. Signing the will, "offering his life" was Atta's response.[41] The instructions in his last will and testament reflect both Sunni funeral practices, along with some more puritanical demands from Salafism, including asking people not "to weep and cry" or show emotion. The will was signed by el-Motassadeq and a second individual at the mosque.[42]


From above:
Quote:
He also calls Israel a racist theocracy and a "shitty little country".


Israel is an explicitly racist country (ie a Jew can move there provided the genetic lineage can be demonstrated, while the Palestinian who lived there before the creation of Israel have no similar right) and while theocracy is an exaggeration, Israel is moving in that direction. I have no opposition what so ever to an explicitly Jewish state that protects and advances their kin (or Swiss, Swede, Korean, Chinese, Japanese etc state). I simply want no role in their behavior and I certainly don't want that conflict there to come over here, where we have more than enough to deal with on our own. They wanted a state there and they're going to have to learn how to get along with their neighbors.
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TheUrbanMyth



Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Location: It's not a superiority complex when you really are superior

PostPosted: Sun Aug 10, 2014 1:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Titus wrote:

Israel is an explicitly racist country (ie a Jew can move there provided the genetic lineage can be demonstrated, while the Palestinian who lived there before the creation of Israel have no similar right) and while theocracy is an exaggeration, Israel is moving in that direction. I have no opposition what so ever to an explicitly Jewish state that protects and advances their kin (or Swiss, Swede, Korean, Chinese, Japanese etc state). I simply want no role in their behavior and I certainly don't want that conflict there to come over here, where we have more than enough to deal with on our own. They wanted a state there and they're going to have to learn how to get along with their neighbors.


They seem to get along with neighbors such as Jordan and Egypt even to the point of signing long-lasting peace treaties. But then again neither of the aforementioned two countries are raining down rockets on them. Whoathunk it?
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Kuros



Joined: 27 Apr 2004

PostPosted: Sun Aug 10, 2014 2:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

TheUrbanMyth wrote:
Titus wrote:

Israel is an explicitly racist country (ie a Jew can move there provided the genetic lineage can be demonstrated, while the Palestinian who lived there before the creation of Israel have no similar right) and while theocracy is an exaggeration, Israel is moving in that direction. I have no opposition what so ever to an explicitly Jewish state that protects and advances their kin (or Swiss, Swede, Korean, Chinese, Japanese etc state). I simply want no role in their behavior and I certainly don't want that conflict there to come over here, where we have more than enough to deal with on our own. They wanted a state there and they're going to have to learn how to get along with their neighbors.


They seem to get along with neighbors such as Jordan and Egypt even to the point of signing long-lasting peace treaties. But then again neither of the aforementioned two countries are raining down rockets on them. Whoathunk it?


I'll take why do Egypt and Israel get along for $1.5 billion, Alex.
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andrewchon



Joined: 16 Nov 2008
Location: In my goshiwon cubicle. Seeking moksha.

PostPosted: Sun Aug 10, 2014 4:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Kuros wrote:
If you have nothing substantive to add, don't post. This isn't the insipid Off-topic forum.


Just responding at all, shows up your shaky founations. Answering questions un-asked reveals your lies (or half-truths). Un-spoken words are more powerful than spoken words. Want to try best 2 out of 3? Laughing
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