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Leon
Joined: 31 May 2010
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 Posted: Mon Aug 18, 2014 6:03 pm Post subject: |
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| The idea that these riots are about a single event is silly, it's like believing the Arab Spring was about a single person setting themselves on fire. If there was a sense of trust between the community and the police, the riots wouldn't have occurred, the people would be willing to wait for the investigation. I doubt that the people out there are protesting the individual real or not injustice, but the systematic one. |
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bigverne
Joined: 12 May 2004
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| Posted: Mon Aug 18, 2014 8:39 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
| I doubt that the people out there are protesting the individual real or not injustice, but the systematic one. |
What is this systematic injustice? |
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geldedgoat
Joined: 05 Mar 2009
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| Posted: Mon Aug 18, 2014 10:05 pm Post subject: |
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| Kuros wrote: |
| The protests will produce the political pressure for an investigation. |
From potentially unwarranted charges driven by fear of race riots to protests pushing an investigation? Sure.
| Quote: |
| Or is someone going to suggest that pointing a sniper rifle at a First Amendment demonstration constitutes competent policing? |
I know this will come as quite a surprise, but I have no problem with the simple presence of firearms, be they handguns or scoped rifles. American police have always had such weapons. But what does this have to do with holding the animals accountable for what they do to their own neighborhoods? Where is the justification in a "peaceful protester" turning wild and carelessly destructive simply because a cop stands in front of him with a weapon?
| Leon wrote: |
| I doubt that the people out there are protesting the individual real or not injustice, but the perceived one. |
To answer your previous question about white solidarity, it would seem that pushing back against this nonsense is at least one common interest worth working towards. Not enough to form any kind of party around, certainly, but enough to influence some shift in culture and voting behavior. |
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sirius black
Joined: 04 Jun 2010
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| Posted: Tue Aug 19, 2014 12:21 am Post subject: |
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| Old Painless wrote: |
| This is the new normal. In LA in 1994 the National Guard played cards in airplane hangars until the riot petered out on its own. Then they went in and bulldozed all the rubble into piles. That is what will happen again. Once everything is looted and there is nothing else to get, things will fizzle out. I think I read somewhere that the national guard was shot at and they returned fire, everything pretty much ended after that. |
Regarding those riots, what isn't talked about was that about half of the arrests were latino. Blacks made up a little over a third and when the riots spread to Hollywood, whites were arrested as well between 15% and 20% percent of the arrests and rioters were white. Also, other than the trucker there were no instances of white attacks. If you know the Hollywood area many poor whites, it was a riot of the underclass of all hues. |
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sirius black
Joined: 04 Jun 2010
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| Posted: Tue Aug 19, 2014 12:25 am Post subject: |
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Given the decades of abuse by cops can't say I blame them (the Ferguson folks). The '68 riots that swept across many cities was the culmination of decades of abuse as well. Its interesting, we founded a nation by revolting against perceived injustice. We cheered for the arabs in the various Arab Springs to do the same thing, for the same resaons we are telling the Ferguson people not to do. Fighting injustice. A black friend asked this quesiton. 'When was the last time that a black male was killed by a white cop/ white male and it was in the national debate and the national media , and whites in general all agreed it was wrong?' I was hardpressed to come up with any time.
Even in the pre civil rights era, if you speak to people who were around then, other than a few northern liberals (Jews, clergy both calthloic and protestant) most non southerners just ignored and wished the scenes of blacks, both men and women being firehosed and having attack dogs on them, would just go away. No huge publuc outcry. It was our European allies who pressured America the most. Polls at the time didn't suppport a civl rights act to any great degree. Johnson had to threathen, bribe, etc. to get it done.
Anyway, the national media, especially the conservative media actually cheered when the Bundy supporters had guns trained on law enforcement but view this incident totally different. http://thedailybanter.com/2014/08/two-americas-ferguson-missouri-versus-bundy-ranch-nevada/
One thing that would cut this stuff out to a large degree are mandatory cameras on cop cars and cops.
http://www.policeone.com/less-lethal/articles/6191744-Study-proves-cop-cameras-cut-citizen-complaints/
A police department implements a new technology solution and citizen complaints plummet by 87.5 percent in the span of just one year.
In the same time period, the PD also reduces use-of-force incidents by 59 percent.
Also, seems the Ferguson cops were engaged in a little character assassination. The store owner it seems never called or reported a crime. A customer called 911.
http://countercurrentnews.com/2014/08/ferguson-store-owner-says-he-doesnt-believe-thats-mike-brown-on-surveillance-video/
and
http://www.addictinginfo.org/2014/08/18/ferguson-pd-busted/ |
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bigverne
Joined: 12 May 2004
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| Posted: Tue Aug 19, 2014 12:32 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
| The store owner it seems never called or reported a crime. A customer called 911. |
Doesn't change the fact that the video completely discredits the 'gentle giant' narrative. |
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Kuros
Joined: 27 Apr 2004
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| Posted: Tue Aug 19, 2014 4:19 am Post subject: |
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| geldedgoat wrote: |
| Quote: |
| Or is someone going to suggest that pointing a sniper rifle at a First Amendment demonstration constitutes competent policing? |
I know this will come as quite a surprise, but I have no problem with the simple presence of firearms, be they handguns or scoped rifles. American police have always had such weapons. But what does this have to do with holding the animals accountable for what they do to their own neighborhoods? Where is the justification in a "peaceful protester" turning wild and carelessly destructive simply because a cop stands in front of him with a weapon? |
Sniper rifles have no place, no place, in policing.
Veterans of our wars were very critical of such tactics of oppression.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/checkpoint/wp/2014/08/14/military-veterans-see-deeply-flawed-police-response-in-ferguson/
| Quote: |
| “You see the police are standing online with bulletproof vests and rifles pointed at peoples chests,” said Jason Fritz, a former Army officer and an international policing operations analyst. “That’s not controlling the crowd, that’s intimidating them.” |
| Quote: |
Scriven King, a 10-year veteran of the U.S. Air Force’s law enforcement component and a SWAT officer, attributed the initial spasm of violence to a lack of leadership and mismanagement of public perception on the Ferguson Police Department’s behalf.
. . .
King added that, instead of deescalating the situation on the second day, the police responded with armored vehicles and SWAT officers clad in bulletproof vests and military-grade rifles.
“We went through some pretty bad areas of Afghanistan, but we didn’t wear that much gear,” said Kyle Dykstra, an Army veteran and former security officer for the State Department. Dykstra specifically pointed out the bulletproof armor the officers were wearing around their shoulders, known as “Deltoid” armor.
“I can’t think of a [protest] situation where the use of M4 [rifles] are merited,” Fritz said. “I don’t see it as a viable tactic in any scenario.”
. . .
As the violence continued to escalate over the course of the week, King said, Ferguson police also exacerbated tensions by allowing individual officers to engage with protesters.
“Officers were calling the protesters ‘animals,’ ” King said. “I can’t imagine a military unit would do that in any scenario.”
King added that if it were a military unit in a similar situation there would be a public affairs officer or civil affairs engagement team that would help bridge the gap between the riot control elements and the general population.
“I would hate to call the Ferguson response a military one,” he said. “Because it isn’t, it’s an aberration.” |
http://www.ijreview.com/2014/08/168233-military-vets-weigh-militarization-ferguson-police-force/
http://mashable.com/2014/08/14/war-veterans-ferguson-police/
How quickly for some a 'law-and-order' mentality reverts to supporting intimidation of peaceful protests and silencing national media. |
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Leon
Joined: 31 May 2010
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| Posted: Tue Aug 19, 2014 5:16 am Post subject: |
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| geldedgoat wrote: |
| Kuros wrote: |
| The protests will produce the political pressure for an investigation. |
From potentially unwarranted charges driven by fear of race riots to protests pushing an investigation? Sure.
| Quote: |
| Or is someone going to suggest that pointing a sniper rifle at a First Amendment demonstration constitutes competent policing? |
I know this will come as quite a surprise, but I have no problem with the simple presence of firearms, be they handguns or scoped rifles. American police have always had such weapons. But what does this have to do with holding the animals accountable for what they do to their own neighborhoods? Where is the justification in a "peaceful protester" turning wild and carelessly destructive simply because a cop stands in front of him with a weapon?
| Leon wrote: |
| I doubt that the people out there are protesting the individual real or not injustice, but the perceived one. |
To answer your previous question about white solidarity, it would seem that pushing back against this nonsense is at least one common interest worth working towards. Not enough to form any kind of party around, certainly, but enough to influence some shift in culture and voting behavior. |
Blacks and whites have a different justice system, too suggest otherwise after how well it has been documented is ignorance. Blacks and whites use drugs at similar rates, for example, and yet blacks are arrested for drugs at a much higher rate. None of the fills me with solidarity for fellow whites. Also, I think I've said this before, but stop changing words in my quotes. |
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Kepler
Joined: 24 Sep 2007
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| Posted: Tue Aug 19, 2014 7:12 am Post subject: |
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http://www.bjs.gov/content/pub/pdf/htus8008.pdf
Look at table 14.
56% of homicides by police involved white police officers killing white people.
27% involved white police officers killing black people.
11% involved black police officers killing black people.
3% involved black police officers killing white people.
3% were classified as "other". |
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geldedgoat
Joined: 05 Mar 2009
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| Posted: Tue Aug 19, 2014 7:40 am Post subject: |
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| Kuros wrote: |
| Sniper rifles have no place, no place, in policing. |
If you were to say this about fully automatic weapons or RPG-like weapons, no explanation would be necessary. The fear of a single-shot scoped rifle escapes me though. Please expound.
| Quote: |
| How quickly for some a 'law-and-order' mentality reverts to supporting intimidation of peaceful protests and silencing national media. |
Just to be clear, this is not my position. The police in Ferguson clearly crossed a line, though it was not when they decided to show up with sniper rifles.
| Leon wrote: |
| Blacks and whites use drugs at similar rates, for example, and yet blacks are arrested for drugs at a much higher rate. |
You're referring to self-reported studies, yes? If so, I'd like to see where this has been discredited: "Even when other factors were controlled for, the self-report and hair test results for African Americans were more discrepant than for non-African Americans, a finding consistent with past studies (Fendrich, et al., 1999; Feucht, Stephens, & Walker, 1994). In a large study of youth (9−20), underreporting of cocaine was documented with urine testing validation as well (Fendrich & Yanchun, 1994) where African Americans in comparison to Caucasians who were urine positive were about 6 times less likely to report cocaine use when other factors are controlled for."
Either way, that still has nothing to do with your bogus excuse about "systematic" injustice. Knee-jerk reactions and hyperbole like that seen in Ferguson serves no purpose other than to further the careers and agendas of people like Benjamin Crump and Al Sharpton. |
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Leon
Joined: 31 May 2010
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| Posted: Tue Aug 19, 2014 8:04 am Post subject: |
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| geldedgoat wrote: |
| Kuros wrote: |
| Sniper rifles have no place, no place, in policing. |
If you were to say this about fully automatic weapons or RPG-like weapons, no explanation would be necessary. The fear of a single-shot scoped rifle escapes me though. Please expound.
| Quote: |
| How quickly for some a 'law-and-order' mentality reverts to supporting intimidation of peaceful protests and silencing national media. |
Just to be clear, this is not my position. The police in Ferguson clearly crossed a line, though it was not when they decided to show up with sniper rifles.
| Leon wrote: |
| Blacks and whites use drugs at similar rates, for example, and yet blacks are arrested for drugs at a much higher rate. |
You're referring to self-reported studies, yes? If so, I'd like to see where this has been discredited: "Even when other factors were controlled for, the self-report and hair test results for African Americans were more discrepant than for non-African Americans, a finding consistent with past studies (Fendrich, et al., 1999; Feucht, Stephens, & Walker, 1994). In a large study of youth (9−20), underreporting of cocaine was documented with urine testing validation as well (Fendrich & Yanchun, 1994) where African Americans in comparison to Caucasians who were urine positive were about 6 times less likely to report cocaine use when other factors are controlled for."
Either way, that still has nothing to do with your bogus excuse about "systematic" injustice. Knee-jerk reactions and hyperbole like that seen in Ferguson serves no purpose other than to further the careers and agendas of people like Benjamin Crump and Al Sharpton. |
The study that you linked to is kind of weird in that it features a much larger percentage of Vietnam Veterans than are in the general population (76.5% Vets). Also, "Specifically, hair testing appears to offer a more accurate assessment of cocaine use over a 90-day period, but in our study the detection rate was not better than self-report on marijuana, opiates, and methamphetamine." since this study only says the discrepancy is for cocaine, how do you explain the discrepancy for arrests for Marijuana?
"Black Americans were nearly four times as likely as whites to be arrested on charges of marijuana possession in 2010, even though the two groups used the drug at similar rates, according to new federal data."
http://www.nytimes.com/2013/06/04/us/marijuana-arrests-four-times-as-likely-for-blacks.html?_r=0
Also, you left this part out.
"One possible reason for this ethnic difference is that cocaine metabolites have been detected at a higher rate in African American hair than in other racial groups, which appears independent to specific laboratory procedures (Cone & Joseph, 1996; Welp et al., 2003). The so-called “racial bias” hypothesis (Kidwell, Lee, & DeLauder, 2000) is consistent with the observation that cocaine (but not benzoylecgonine) demonstrates differential affinity to different hair types based on melanin subtype, with dark-color hair demonstrating the greatest affinity (Borges, Roberts, Wilkins, & Rollins, 2003). However, several studies reported conflicting or mixed results on the “racial bias” hypothesis (e.g., Hoffman, 1999; Kelly, Mieczkowski, Sweeney, & Bourland, 2000; Mieczkowski & Newel, 2000)."
So race may play a factor in the under reporting, but not in the way you implied. Maybe the study is not as conclusive as you thought.
So, why again is what I say an "excuse" or "hyperbole" other than the fact that you disagree? |
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geldedgoat
Joined: 05 Mar 2009
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| Posted: Tue Aug 19, 2014 8:29 am Post subject: |
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| Leon wrote: |
| The study that you linked to is kind of weird in that it features a much larger percentage of Vietnam Veterans than are in the general population (76.5% Vets). |
Did you miss "a finding consistent with past studies"? This study just happened to be the most link-friendly. But since I'm feeling generous, here's one of the others.
So when I asked if you were relying on a self-reported survey, your answer should have been "yes."
| Quote: |
Also, you left this part out.
[...]However, several studies reported conflicting or mixed results on the “racial bias” hypothesis(e.g., Hoffman, 1999; Kelly, Mieczkowski, Sweeney, & Bourland, 2000; Mieczkowski & Newel, 2000)." |
The reason should be clear.
| Quote: |
| So, why again is what I say an "excuse" [...] other than the fact that you disagree? |
You said people were not protesting and rioting because of the specific case they claimed to be protesting and rioting over, instead claiming that it's the result of "systematic injustice." How do you not see 'excuse' written all over that? |
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Leon
Joined: 31 May 2010
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| Posted: Tue Aug 19, 2014 8:47 am Post subject: |
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| geldedgoat wrote: |
| Leon wrote: |
| The study that you linked to is kind of weird in that it features a much larger percentage of Vietnam Veterans than are in the general population (76.5% Vets). |
Did you miss "a finding consistent with past studies"? This study just happened to be the most link-friendly. But since I'm feeling generous, here's one of the others.
So when I asked if you were relying on a self-reported survey, your answer should have been "yes."
| Quote: |
Also, you left this part out.
[...]However, several studies reported conflicting or mixed results on the “racial bias” hypothesis(e.g., Hoffman, 1999; Kelly, Mieczkowski, Sweeney, & Bourland, 2000; Mieczkowski & Newel, 2000)." |
The reason should be clear.
| Quote: |
| So, why again is what I say an "excuse" [...] other than the fact that you disagree? |
You said people were not protesting and rioting because of the specific case they claimed to be protesting and rioting over, instead claiming that it's the result of "systematic injustice." How do you not see 'excuse' written all over that? |
Because, like I said before, if there was already trust between the police and the community than the chances of large scale protests breaking out over this incident would be very small. Also, if you look at the coverage and interviews with the people, it is very clear that people keep on bringing up the systematic stuff over and over again.
By the way, that study that you linked to, within the abstract- "a high-risk community sample of adults from Chicago, Illinois." Can you not already see the problem with projecting the results to blacks as a whole, or are Vietnam Vets and high risk adults living in Chicago a representative sample? Also, the studies find the discrepancy for Cocaine, but there are far more arrests for marijuana possession than for cocaine.
Sure, self reporting has its problems, but it allows for researchers to get a larger, more representative, sample than the ones that you are linking to.
That was just one example of different applications of justice based on race, there are many others, ex.
"Prison sentences of black men were nearly 20% longer than those of white men for similar crimes in recent years, an analysis by the U.S. Sentencing Commission found."
http://online.wsj.com/news/articles/SB10001424127887324432004578304463789858002
or traffic stops
WASHINGTON (AP) — Black, Hispanic and white drivers are equally likely to be pulled over by police, but blacks and Hispanics are much more likely to be searched and arrested, a federal study found.
Police were much more likely to threaten or use force against blacks and Hispanics than against whites in any encounter, whether at a traffic stop or elsewhere, according to the Justice Department.
http://usatoday30.usatoday.com/news/nation/2007-04-29-minorities-traffic-stops_N.htm |
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geldedgoat
Joined: 05 Mar 2009
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| Posted: Tue Aug 19, 2014 9:47 am Post subject: |
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| Leon wrote: |
| Because, like I said before, if there was already trust between the police and the community [...] |
See, the problem with self-reporting even fits with the narrative here: blacks in the not-too-distant past had legitimate reasons to distrust authority figures, and so would be much less likely to readily admit to illegal behavior, whether out of personal fear or fear of maligning their community as a whole. That's entirely reasonable, and I would not fault for behaving in such a manner.
Still, that doesn't make the survey results any more reliable, nor does it make the excuse to overreact and turn this into a national race crisis any more valid.
Yes, the militarization and increasing indifference of police forces across the country is a problem. Yes, this influences their behavior and the negative encounters they have with the populace in high crime, low income areas. No, this doesn't mean systematic racism is at fault.
| Quote: |
| By the way, that study that you linked to, within the abstract- "a high-risk community sample of adults from Chicago, Illinois." |
Straight from the methodology section: "The pool of neighborhoods selected for the study was restricted to those with above-average admissions to state-supported drug and alcohol treatment programs. In addition, neighborhoods were stratified according to 1990 Census data to assure a balanced distribution across race/ethnicity groups (i.e., one third of the neighborhoods were predominantly African American, one third were predominantly white, and one third were predominantly Hispanic.)" Also, surely it makes the study more relevant when it is primarily confined to those areas more likely to actually experience drug-related arrests, yes? |
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Leon
Joined: 31 May 2010
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| Posted: Tue Aug 19, 2014 10:00 am Post subject: |
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| geldedgoat wrote: |
| Leon wrote: |
| Because, like I said before, if there was already trust between the police and the community [...] |
See, the problem with self-reporting even fits with the narrative here: blacks in the not-too-distant past had legitimate reasons to distrust authority figures, and so would be much less likely to readily admit to illegal behavior, whether out of personal fear or fear of maligning their community as a whole. That's entirely reasonable, and I would not fault for behaving in such a manner.
Still, that doesn't make the survey results any more reliable, nor does it make the excuse to overreact and turn this into a national race crisis any more valid.
Yes, the militarization and increasing indifference of police forces across the country is a problem. Yes, this influences their behavior and the negative encounters they have with the populace in high crime, low income areas. No, this doesn't mean systematic racism is at fault. |
Both of the problems that you mentioned are systematic, so why are you so up in arms when I used the term before? No research design is perfect, but most research relies on self reporting for most types of questions. Vietnam Vets and High Risk Adults living in Chicago are not statistically significant populations compared to national studies, nor do your studies find significant under reporting for weed, so I feel comfortable as accepting the self reported studies as reasonably accurate. Also note that calling something a systematic problem is different than calling the individuals in it racist, i.e. the barrell is bad not the individual apples placed into it.
| geldedgoat wrote: |
| Quote: |
| By the way, that study that you linked to, within the abstract- "a high-risk community sample of adults from Chicago, Illinois." |
Straight from the methodology section: "The pool of neighborhoods selected for the study was restricted to those with above-average admissions to state-supported drug and alcohol treatment programs. In addition, neighborhoods were stratified according to 1990 Census data to assure a balanced distribution across race/ethnicity groups (i.e., one third of the neighborhoods were predominantly African American, one third were predominantly white, and one third were predominantly Hispanic.)" Also, surely it makes the study more relevant when it is primarily confined to those areas more likely to actually experience drug-related arrests, yes? |
No, just because an area experiences more arrests for drugs doesn't mean that it has a higher rate of use. Police departments are interested in stats, so which is easier a poor neighborhood where dealing is more likely to be done openly and people are less likely to be able to challenge verdicts and get lawyers, more likely to accept a plea deal, etc. or richer neighborhoods where the inverse is true? Consider which population of people are more concentrated in urban areas- largely because of previous decades of housing policies- and how that it naturally makes sense for police looking to reach arrest targets to go there. Again, this is why more national, broad based, surveys are better indicators, because it's not like the rich and middle class aren't doing drugs.[/i] |
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