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Chaparrastique
Joined: 01 Jan 2014
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 Posted: Sat Jun 27, 2015 6:03 am Post subject: |
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| Leon wrote: |
I finished my masters a month ago, not PhD. There is probably a more nuanced argument, but it would be wasted on this conversation, and if anything Putin apologists bring out the worst in me, I guess. |
better learn how to tackle difficult questions and formulate an argument before you attempt that doctorate 
But lets leave you with a very simple question: Would America be fine with it if Russia installed military bases in Mexico, Cuba, Canada and the Dominican Republic? Think hard! |
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Leon
Joined: 31 May 2010
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| Posted: Sat Jun 27, 2015 6:26 am Post subject: |
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| Chaparrastique wrote: |
| Leon wrote: |
I finished my masters a month ago, not PhD. There is probably a more nuanced argument, but it would be wasted on this conversation, and if anything Putin apologists bring out the worst in me, I guess. |
better learn how to tackle difficult questions and formulate an argument before you attempt that doctorate
But lets leave you with a very simple question: Would America be fine with it if Russia installed military bases in Mexico, Cuba, Canada and the Dominican Republic? Think hard! |
As to the first point, you have to know your audience. Daves is not a dissertation board. To the second, interesting hypothetical, but unlikely. China and Russia do seem to be trying to exert influence in Latin America (mostly Venezuela) but no one seems too upset. I guess a better parallel would be what does the U.S. Do when Russia sells more weapons to Iran, so let's wait and see. |
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Chaparrastique
Joined: 01 Jan 2014
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| Posted: Sat Jun 27, 2015 7:08 am Post subject: |
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| Leon wrote: |
| you have to know your audience. |
please. Anything but that.
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| Daves is not a dissertation board. |
Luckily for you.
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| interesting hypothetical, but unlikely. |
I didn't ask if it was likely.
I asked would they be ok with it. Stop sidestepping.
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I guess a better parallel would be what does the U.S. Do when Russia sells more weapons to Iran... |
..and you hadn't heard of the Cuban missile crisis at all?
Either you're trolling, or you really are this lightweight. I'll assume the latter because you keep failing to answer the simplest points.
Neeeext! please send someone intelligent. |
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Leon
Joined: 31 May 2010
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| Posted: Sat Jun 27, 2015 7:31 am Post subject: |
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| Chaparrastique wrote: |
| Leon wrote: |
| you have to know your audience. |
please. Anything but that.
| Quote: |
| Daves is not a dissertation board. |
Luckily for you.
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| interesting hypothetical, but unlikely. |
I didn't ask if it was likely.
I asked would they be ok with it. Stop sidestepping.
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I guess a better parallel would be what does the U.S. Do when Russia sells more weapons to Iran... |
..and you hadn't heard of the Cuban missile crisis at all?
Either you're trolling, or you really are this lightweight. I'll assume the latter because you keep failing to answer the simplest points.
Neeeext! please send someone intelligent. |
Well, I knew that you meant the Cuban Missile Crisis, but it is not an apt comparison because the USSR was a superpower, and Russia is not. Russia is not a direct threat to the United States as the Soviets were, nor were the Soviets as exposed to the international economy as Russia is. Russia threatens U.S. perceived national interests, but Ukraine is hardly an existential threat. To answer your hypothetical, I suppose the U.S. Would be at first confused. I guess it depends, are these Russian bases, or A bunch of Russians in unmarked uniforms? Also, if Russia moved Nukes, that would be far different than soldiers, so the reaction would be intense. A more apt comparison is Russia's move to militarize the arctic, which is being dealt with in a multilateral way. Your comparison is inapt, and honestly why spend a lot of time explaining myself to someone who engages in silly personal attacks? |
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chellovek
Joined: 29 Feb 2008
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| Posted: Sat Jun 27, 2015 9:19 am Post subject: |
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| Leon wrote: |
| chellovek wrote: |
| Leon wrote: |
| Chaparrastique wrote: |
| Leon wrote: |
| I must be ignorant because I don't agree with your opinions on the subject, obviously. |
I don't really get how you think American land-grabbing expansionism and putting US bases all around Russia would result in anything but a new cold war.
But don't worry I do understand you are quite brainwashed by one-sided western media. |
Considering how all of those countries invited the U.S. in, many because they had already experienced how terrible being under Russian control was, I don't think it quite qualifies as land-grabbing expansionism, and for it to be a new Cold War, it would require roughly equal sides, but at best Russia is China's sidekick. I realize that you are sensitive about this, and that many Russians are sensitive about this, and that Putin is especially sensitive about this, but I don't realize what it has to do with the original point I made that you replied to.
Really, you are aiming at wrong targets anyways. Russia is not strong enough to maintain its pretensions to imperialism, and attempts to regain the territory of the USSR will simply not work. This is not due to NATO or the U.S., but due to Russian economic weakness, and has been the case since the end of the USSR. In this case, Russians should primarily blame Yeltsin and the old Nomenklatura class for robbing the country blind, but there is some room to blame U.S. economic advisers like Jeffery Sach and the like for helping rob the country blind. Russia is not a global power, but does happen to be very large and strategically placed with a lot of nukes and a large military, pretending otherwise is counterproductive. |
Come on, man. If I recall right (correct me if I'm wrong), you're a fellow academic and presumably a fellow PhD holder. How you can let that simplistic shit fly I don't know.
Edit: I'm not going to wrestle with this forum with citations (it's getting late here) as if this place is an academic journal and the chimps on here are peer reviewers. |
I finished my masters a month ago, not PhD. There is probably a more nuanced argument, but it would be wasted on this conversation, and if anything Putin apologists bring out the worst in me, I guess. |
Well aye I'm right behind you on that Putin's government is a bad one, and that the liberalisation of the 1990s under Yeltsin was highly sketchy to say the least, I remember having to study all that when I did my Masters. The Soviet economy was simply built according to a different schema that didn't and still doesn't lend itself easily to some miraculous transformation into a Western-style system. You ever read the Gosplan yearbooks from the 70s and 80s? It's horrific complicated stuff, more than a central agency in a city can properly plan for a sixth of the Earth's surface.
I think that a good chunk of the Putin apologism you lament is more to do with some people who are simply enjoying him puncturing the hypocritical self-righteousness of our own leadership by acting out. Same way someone might enjoy a kid acting out in a restaurant and embarrassing his/her smug, up-tight parents. A big chunk of Russian grievances stem from the negotiations over German reunification, the Soviets were very sore and worried about it, with regards to whether or not the East Germans will be a part of NATO. It goes into the whole, did they say it/didn't they it, over the eastward expansion of NATO. |
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Chaparrastique
Joined: 01 Jan 2014
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| Posted: Sun Jun 28, 2015 9:01 am Post subject: |
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| chellovek wrote: |
Well aye I'm right behind you on that Putin's government is a bad one |
Putin is more popular among his people than Obama. Russia was bankrupt when he came to power, they owed more to the IMF than they had foreign currency reserves. Putin has overseen tenfold GDP growth in a decade- to the point where Russia is one of the largest creditors of US debt. Maybe that is why western governments decided his govt is "bad".
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| the liberalisation of the 1990s under Yeltsin was highly sketchy to say the least |
The "liberalisation" was daylight robbery by the west. Yeltsin was a puppet of the west, he signed whatever they told him to. Putins crime was to firmly return Russian sovereignty to the Kremlin.
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| a good chunk of the Putin apologism you lament is more to do with some people who are simply enjoying him puncturing the hypocritical self-righteousness of our own leadership by acting out. |
yeah, the arrogance and blatant hypocrisy. The ridiculously slanted western media portrayal of Crimea-Ukraine. And the dangerous foreign policy that is being pushed by hawks in the White House who date from the cold war era. And the fact that the west's supposed values are simply a cover for their power games.
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| A big chunk of Russian grievances stem from the negotiations over German reunification, the Soviets were very sore and worried about it, with regards to whether or not the East Germans will be a part of NATO. |
The deal was that NATO could have East Germany so long as there would be no subsequent eastward expansion. That's why Gorbachev agreed to let the wall down.
The real reason the west has gone nuts to put economic sanctions on Russia is because they were/ are poised to be the worlds 5th largest economy by 2020. And with that being beyond Washingtons control. |
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chellovek
Joined: 29 Feb 2008
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| Posted: Mon Jul 06, 2015 10:19 am Post subject: |
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| Chaparrastique wrote: |
| chellovek wrote: |
Well aye I'm right behind you on that Putin's government is a bad one |
Putin is more popular among his people than Obama. Russia was bankrupt when he came to power, they owed more to the IMF than they had foreign currency reserves. Putin has overseen tenfold GDP growth in a decade- to the point where Russia is one of the largest creditors of US debt. Maybe that is why western governments decided his govt is "bad".
| Quote: |
| the liberalisation of the 1990s under Yeltsin was highly sketchy to say the least |
The "liberalisation" was daylight robbery by the west. Yeltsin was a puppet of the west, he signed whatever they told him to. Putins crime was to firmly return Russian sovereignty to the Kremlin.
| Quote: |
| a good chunk of the Putin apologism you lament is more to do with some people who are simply enjoying him puncturing the hypocritical self-righteousness of our own leadership by acting out. |
yeah, the arrogance and blatant hypocrisy. The ridiculously slanted western media portrayal of Crimea-Ukraine. And the dangerous foreign policy that is being pushed by hawks in the White House who date from the cold war era. And the fact that the west's supposed values are simply a cover for their power games.
| Quote: |
| A big chunk of Russian grievances stem from the negotiations over German reunification, the Soviets were very sore and worried about it, with regards to whether or not the East Germans will be a part of NATO. |
The deal was that NATO could have East Germany so long as there would be no subsequent eastward expansion. That's why Gorbachev agreed to let the wall down.
The real reason the west has gone nuts to put economic sanctions on Russia is because they were/ are poised to be the worlds 5th largest economy by 2020. And with that being beyond Washingtons control. |
Yeah with regards to NATO, Gorbachev reckoned that he had been verbally assured by the US that NATO wouldn't expand eastwards, which was a key part in him agreeing to reunification. However, the US later said that since it hadn't been written down in a legally-binding agreement, it didn't count, and was just talk. In the context of the Soviet political decision making process, oral commands from superiors could act as binding orders, and Gorbachev had taken the US verbal assurance as such. The US didn't see it that way and did what they wanted to, leading to this current Russian feeling of betrayal and perfidy. Ultimately, since nothing had been written down in an agreement, subsequent Russian leaders had nothing to point to that could prove that the US had acted in bad faith. So it's just people saying he said she said.
Not sure I share your faith in the Russian economy. They've been trying for over a decade to diversify their economy away from natural resource extraction, with no significant result. They might well become 5th largest by 2020 if/when the oil price recovers, but outwith Moscow and St Petersburg there's a lot to do before it can even begin to be considered in the same league with Northwest Europe, North America, etc.
I also think, whether observers such as us like him or not, Putin is expressing a genuine strain of grievance in Russia. The way he tends to be portrayed in the West is a bit cartoonish too, and will only be shown to be unhelpful in resolving our problems with each other in the long-term. |
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