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University jobs race to the bottom
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Chaparrastique



Joined: 01 Jan 2014

PostPosted: Tue Feb 17, 2015 8:30 pm    Post subject: University jobs race to the bottom Reply with quote

Is an MA even worth getting anymore?


Quote:
Job No. 1:
Quote:
Qualification: Ph.D. degree holders with at least 1 year teaching experience or MA degree holders with over 3 years of university experience

Salary: 2,200,000- 2,400,000 won, depending on relevant teaching experience
http://www.eslcafe.com/jobs/korea/index.cgi?read=63825


2.4? for a PhD? I already earn more than that at a hogwon with only a BA.

Job No.2:
Quote:
Qualifications
Only those with the following qualification will be considered.
1. PhD degree
2. Master's degree + two years of full time college-level teaching experience
3. Bachelor's degree + four years of full time college-level teaching experience
(Part-time teaching and lifelong education classes will not be considered)

Salary and Benefits
1.2,100,000 KRW per month
(pay increase of 100,000 Korean won starting each on the second year and the fourth year of employment )
http://www.eslcafe.com/jobs/korea/index.cgi?read=63726


Ouch. So even if I spend a fortune getting an MA and manage to get renewed three years in a row (as if) then I'll still be getting less than I get now at a kids hogwon.

Job. No. 3:

Quote:
Applicants must have at least a Master's degree with 2 years of university teaching experience in ESL.

Salary & Benefits: The basic annual salary is 20,400,000 won (with master's degree)
http://www.eslcafe.com/jobs/korea/index.cgi?read=63670


So..thats 1.7 per month.
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World Traveler



Joined: 29 May 2009

PostPosted: Tue Feb 17, 2015 9:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Check out this one for Suwon Science College:

Qualifications : Master's degree holders in any field and F visa holders who have more than two years teaching experience in college level.

Must have an MA and an F visa and two years teaching experience at the college level in order to be considered?

How much is the compensation?

The Salary : 2.5 million won per month (The yearly salary is 30 million won)

Housing and Food : NOT provided(No Key money)

Vacation : 4 weeks during each semester.


No housing, no severance, short vacation time and 2.5 a month? Things are definitely on the decline for sure.
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PRagic



Joined: 24 Feb 2006

PostPosted: Tue Feb 17, 2015 10:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'll cut and paste my comment from another thread:

I say this in all seriousness: if I were out of university with a couple of years of ESL teaching under my belt and looking for some serious upside potential, whether in Korea or elsewhere, I'd haul arse back to some place offering a certification program in teaching 3D printing.

The K government is in the process of chucking millions and millions of dollars into 3D education in schools and universities are already developing programs. If history is any lesson, this means that hagwons will be popping up like daisies in springtime as well.

Get in now and keep current. You heard it here first.
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Paddycakes



Joined: 05 May 2003
Location: Seoul

PostPosted: Tue Feb 17, 2015 10:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

On the one hand, I feel really sorry for people who have invested huge amounts of time and money to earn a PhD or Masters only to see jobs that pay less that what a bus driver can expect to make.

But then I think: You were an idiot for doing a PhD or Masters in field that has little to no economic value, often from universities that no one has ever heard of.

You made your own bed.
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happyinhenan



Joined: 01 Feb 2015

PostPosted: Tue Feb 17, 2015 11:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Investing in a masters or a PhD to work solely in Korea is probably a bit of a daft idea, thankfully, they are accepted everywhere - a bit like an American Express card.

What is silly is keeping basic, unrelated qualifications and then when the Koreans start kicking your arses out, you have nowhere else to go.
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Died By Bear



Joined: 13 Jul 2010
Location: On the big lake they call Gitche Gumee

PostPosted: Tue Feb 17, 2015 11:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

PRagic wrote:
I'll cut and paste my comment from another thread:

I say this in all seriousness: if I were out of university with a couple of years of ESL teaching under my belt and looking for some serious upside potential, whether in Korea or elsewhere, I'd haul arse back to some place offering a certification program in teaching 3D printing.

The K government is in the process of chucking millions and millions of dollars into 3D education in schools and universities are already developing programs. If history is any lesson, this means that hagwons will be popping up like daisies in springtime as well.

Get in now and keep current. You heard it here first.




This.




http://3dprintingindustry.com/2015/02/07/3d-printing-teaches-korean-educators-koreaedu-expo/




This past January 15th – 17th, the 12th Education Korea Expo was held in the giant COEX exhibition center in Seoul. This year’s theme was ‘A Guide to New Education’ and was supported by the Ministry of Education and the Korea Institute of Sustainable Design & Educational Environment. The whole show was comprised of education exhibitions, forums, seminars, and experience programs with around 200 companies operating some 600 booths. For three days, the show attracted more than 35,000 teachers, principals, professors, education experts, buyers, sellers, department officials, parents, and students. As you might expect, there were high-school clubs promoting their activities, food service systems for cafeteria managers to look at, and furniture designed to help students learn more comfortably.



http://3dprintingindustry.com/author/park/


The future:

http://3dprintingindustry.com/2014/10/09/3d-printing-grass-roots-s-korea/
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Chaparrastique



Joined: 01 Jan 2014

PostPosted: Wed Feb 18, 2015 1:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Lets see what the Chinese unis are offering.

Quote:

for oral English teachers, and English major teachers whose major is
literature, linguistics, monthly salary ranges from RMB8,500-10,500 yuan for Bachelor, Master and PHD degree respectively

http://www.eslcafe.com/jobs/china/index.cgi?read=35067


Converted to won thats:

1.5 for a BA
1.7 for an MA
1.9 for a PhD
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World Traveler



Joined: 29 May 2009

PostPosted: Wed Feb 18, 2015 1:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ouch. That's terrible. Where's the best place for qualified applicants to go now? The Middle East? Even there I heard things are deteriorating/getting worse in the TEFL field.

IF you can get in, I'd say a Japanese uni is the best deal. (Cool country to live in, too.) But I heard the uni jobs there are super competitive. (I'm not sure to what extent.) Anyone have more info on that? (I've seen some offers for decent pay there.)
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earthquakez



Joined: 10 Nov 2010

PostPosted: Wed Feb 18, 2015 3:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

World Traveler wrote:
Ouch. That's terrible. Where's the best place for qualified applicants to go now? The Middle East? Even there I heard things are deteriorating/getting worse in the TEFL field.

IF you can get in, I'd say a Japanese uni is the best deal. (Cool country to live in, too.) But I heard the uni jobs there are super competitive. (I'm not sure to what extent.) Anyone have more info on that? (I've seen some offers for decent pay there.)


The Japanese universities tend to be fairer than Korean universities in their recruiting. For tenured positions (mostly called professor) the lowest qualification is an MA and there is an emphasis on teaching experience at university level and publications. Those MAs must be in a relevant field - there is no such thing as a tenured position accepting an online MA or one that is not directly related to the position.

However, while they are more open minded on an MA with those accompanying criteria, tenured positions of course are looking either for a Phd or somebody about to commence one. As well as teaching experience at university level and publications, participation in professional groups etc.

The baseline salary is usually around 4.5 million per month in Korean won prices and upwards and includes a research budget, travel paid for, rental payment or subsidy, free flight to Japan, bonuses, etc.

For non tenured positions (associate professor for example), the Phd and MA are desirable but people with a BA plus certification and/or another degree that can be considered 'equivalent qualifications' coupled with significant teaching experience at college/university level can be in contention.

Sometimes you can parlay your English teaching experience into a non tenured academic job such as teaching English literature or something like Communication Studies. Again, this depends on how open the selection panel is to people who have a lot of good experience at college/university teaching or working at educational/research jobs.

The baseline salary will usually be around 3 million won Korean upwards per month and you will usually get your airfare paid to Japan if you live outside the country, and perks such as housing subsidy, research budget, bonus.

Generally Japanese universities are more inclined to hire somebody with interesting cvs and the emphasis on qualifications is more logical and fairer than in Korea. However, there is still the same problem of those who squeaked into universities as native English speakers with few qualifications some years ago.

As with their equivalents in Korea they sometimes apply the strictest criteria on paper instead of being open to the fact that there are applicants with much greater practical experience of teaching at college/university level than they themselves had.

I've heard from many native English speakers in Japan that Japanese staff who speak English are much better to have as screeners of applicants and interviewers. They are more likely to be open to the idea of employing people with 'the equivalent of' a doctorate or MA in experience.

Then of course there are the learning centres at universities like the one in Kochi, Shikoku, which demanded high qualifications and then had the gall to display staff profiles where the only experience was teaching kiddies. Those making the demands and screening the applicants were not Japanese.

A big challenge of getting college/university/other teaching jobs in Japan is the sheer amount of applicants already in-country.
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caribmon



Joined: 26 Oct 2009

PostPosted: Thu Feb 19, 2015 8:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

My friend just got a job in a mine outside of Yellowknife 12 days in 12 off, living in a camp, and they pay only $20 CAD per hour, before tax.

My brother put an ad on Kijiji for machine shop helper at $18 CAD / hr and he got 2,000 resumes in 1 day

So yes, $10/hr to teach at a university with free housing and free lunch is an excellent salary.
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metalhead



Joined: 18 May 2010
Location: Toilet

PostPosted: Thu Feb 19, 2015 8:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

caribmon wrote:

So yes, $10/hr to teach at a university with free housing and free lunch is an excellent salary.


It's an awful salary as you very well know, but anyway even if it were a good salary it is a better salary in S-E Asia where those ten bucks an hour would go a lot further.
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PRagic



Joined: 24 Feb 2006

PostPosted: Thu Feb 19, 2015 6:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

This type of statement is worrisome:

'For non tenured positions (associate professor for example), the Phd and MA are desirable but people with a BA plus certification and/or another degree that can be considered 'equivalent qualifications' coupled with significant teaching experience at college/university level can be in contention. '

Tenure may be grated at any rank, but in the N. American system it is most frequently granted at the RANK of Associate Professor. In many Asian systems, tenure if earned, is granted with promotion to the RANK of Full Professor. All considered, one must be on an acknowledged tenure track, usually beginning from the lowest RANK of Assistant Professor. It is highly unlikely, although there may be extenuating circumstances and differences for the odd discipline, that anyone without a PhD would be given a tenure track position at a 4 year university, let alone enter at the position off Associate Professor. As a caveat, 2 year community colleges in the US do provide tenure to non-phase holding faculty.

If you're first job after finishing your PhD isn't on the tenure track (e.g. a post doc or a visiting position), the years spent in that position won't count toward tenure if and when you do move into a tenure track position.

As a final caveat, several different university systems in Europe use different job titles and have different criteria for tenure and promotion.
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earthquakez



Joined: 10 Nov 2010

PostPosted: Thu Feb 19, 2015 8:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

PRagic wrote:
This type of statement is worrisome:

'For non tenured positions (associate professor for example), the Phd and MA are desirable but people with a BA plus certification and/or another degree that can be considered 'equivalent qualifications' coupled with significant teaching experience at college/university level can be in contention. '

Tenure may be grated at any rank, but in the N. American system it is most frequently granted at the RANK of Associate Professor. In many Asian systems, tenure if earned, is granted with promotion to the RANK of Full Professor. All considered, one must be on an acknowledged tenure track, usually beginning from the lowest RANK of Assistant Professor. It is highly unlikely, although there may be extenuating circumstances and differences for the odd discipline, that anyone without a PhD would be given a tenure track position at a 4 year university, let alone enter at the position off Associate Professor. As a caveat, 2 year community colleges in the US do provide tenure to non-phase holding faculty.

If you're first job after finishing your PhD isn't on the tenure track (e.g. a post doc or a visiting position), the years spent in that position won't count toward tenure if and when you do move into a tenure track position.

As a final caveat, several different university systems in Europe use different job titles and have different criteria for tenure and promotion.


And? What is 'worrisome' about Japanese universities calling non tenured positions 'Associate' and 'Assistant', the latter of which I did not add to my post? Your point is what?

I taught Media and Communications Studies at a couple of universities. One was in Asia but not in Japan. My undergraduate degree was straight A scores for every subject and after graduation I worked in a research job at university.

My major was English with an emphasis on Linguistics and I have Media and Communications related subjects on that degree. I also have other positions on my cv that are professional ones requiring a research background to do. As well as a good list of teaching gigs at university, colleges, technical colleges and English language institutes in a number of countries.

Theoretically I could qualify for a non tenured position at a Japanese university. By contrast some Korean universities allow people with Phds and absolutely NO teaching experience to obtain positions. There have been some ads quoted to that effect on the eslcafe in threads contributed to recently.

This is the point some of us are making in regard to the criteria for working at a Korean university or a unigwon in Korea. Many of the Japanese universities make much more sense in their criteria for non tenured positions. My research and teaching experience does fit into the criteria of some J universities of MA/Phd or equivalent qualifications which can include employment.

Does it threaten some foreigners who have little real experience in research or teaching but have an MA or Phd? Yes - it does.

As I made the point, there are Japanese selection committees at some universities who are willing to employ somebody who has runs on the board instead of qualifying to enter the pitch and start batting to use a cricket analogy.

Obviously they value the ability to communicate and teach above those who can apply to some Korean selection committees with an MA/Phd and little to no experience in real life communication and teaching at many levels including higher education/post secondary education.

Japanese university selection committees usually would be flexible for somebody who has actually had a research job/s and realise that somebody who did Phd research and wrote a thesis does not necessarily trump employment in a research job or jobs.

Those Korean unversities' priorities explain why there are so many doozies of native English speakers working at university level in Korea.
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World Traveler



Joined: 29 May 2009

PostPosted: Thu Feb 19, 2015 9:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

In Korea, having a BA plus four years of uni teaching experience, an MA plus two years teaching at a uni, or PhD (no teaching experience required) is the magic formula for getting in. Having an F visa and/or the double x chromosome is also highly advantageous (as is being good looking, sadly). Should that be the criteria from which applicants are deemed fit to teach in a uni? Of course not. But that's the reality. And as you said, an explanation for "why there are so many doozies of native English speakers working at university level in Korea".
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PRagic



Joined: 24 Feb 2006

PostPosted: Mon Feb 23, 2015 11:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

My point was simply that the rank of Associate Professor is in no way related to a non-tenure track position. In certain situations, it may be possible to be appointed as a VISITING Associate Professor, but most visitorships, more commonly referred to as adjunct positions in the west, are at the rank of Visiting Assistant Professor.

In reality, the positions you described are Full Time Instructor positions, as to even truly be qualified to hold the rank and position of Visiting Assistant Professor, one normally needs to have a Doctoral degree. Yes, and before a million people chime in, I know that some K and J schools hand that title out like candy at a parade, but that doesn't mean a hill of beans in the real academic world. The usual caveats apply for some majors and for 2 year colleges in the US.

If you lop off that 'visiting' tag, it's a whole new ball game as the positions are then tenure track, and, aside from the caveats mentioned above, you need a terminal degree and publications to even get an interview at a R1 university.
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