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Plain Meaning
Joined: 18 Oct 2014
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 Posted: Sun Jun 21, 2015 8:55 pm Post subject: The flag of treason & hate no longer at S Carolina's cap |
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Take down the confederate Flag now
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Dylann Roof walked into a Charleston church, sat for an hour, and then killed nine people. Roof’s crime cannot be divorced from the ideology of white supremacy which long animated his state nor from its potent symbol—the Confederate flag. Visitors to Charleston have long been treated to South Carolina’s attempt to clean its history and depict its secession as something other than a war to guarantee the enslavement of the majority of its residents. This notion is belied by any serious interrogation of the Civil War and the primary documents of its instigators. Yet the Confederate battle flag—the flag of Dylann Roof—still flies on the Capitol grounds in Columbia.
The Confederate flag’s defenders often claim it represents “heritage not hate.” I agree—the heritage of White Supremacy was not so much birthed by hate as by the impulse toward plunder. Dylann Roof plundered nine different bodies last night, plundered nine different families of an original member, plundered nine different communities of a singular member. An entire people are poorer for his action. The flag that Roof embraced, which many South Carolinians embrace, does not stand in opposition to this act—it endorses it. That the Confederate flag is the symbol of of white supremacists is evidenced by the very words of those who birthed it:
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| Our new government is founded upon exactly the opposite idea; its foundations are laid, its corner-stone rests, upon the great truth that the negro is not equal to the white man; that slavery subordination to the superior race is his natural and normal condition. This, our new government, is the first, in the history of the world, based upon this great physical, philosophical, and moral truth... |
This moral truth—“that the negro is not equal to the white man”—is exactly what animated Dylann Roof. More than any individual actor, in recent history, Roof honored his flag in exactly the manner it always demanded—with human sacrifice. |
Why is the Flag still there?
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Roof understood the symbolism of the flag he waved only all too well. When South Carolina seceded in 1860, it issued a Declaration of the Immediate Causes Which Induce and Justify the Secession of South Carolina. It glossed over states’ rights. It did not mention the tariff. South Carolina was seceding, it explained, due to the “increasing hostility on the part of the non-slaveholding States to the institution of slavery,” and the election of a president who believed “that slavery is in the course of ultimate extinction.”
. . .
After the surrender in 1865, Confederate flags were folded and put away. They were most likely to be spotted at memorials or cemeteries. Even after the hopeful decade of Reconstruction gave way to the violent repression of Redemption, open displays of the flag remained rare. There was no need for a banner to signal defiance; Jim Crow reigned unchallenged.
The flag slowly crept back into public life over the ensuing decades, saluted at veterans’ reunions, promoted by the United Daughters of the Confederacy, even carried into battle by units from the South. By the mid-twentieth century, the flags were also waved by football fans, and sold to tourists.
But as a political symbol, the flag was revived when northern Democrats began to press for an end to the South’s system of racial oppression. In 1948, the Dixiecrats revolted against President Harry Truman—who had desegregated the armed forces and supported anti-lynching bills. The movement began in Mississippi in February of 1948, with thousands of activists “shouting rebel yells and waving the Confederate flag,” as the Associated Press reported at the time. Some actually removed old, mothballed flags from the trunks where they had until then been gathering dust.
At the Democratic convention that July, nine southern states backed Georgia’s Senator Richard Russell over Truman, parading around the floor behind a waving Confederate flag to the strains of Dixie. The Dixiecrats reconvened in Birmingham, nominating South Carolina Governor Strom Thurmond for the presidency. Sales of Confederate flags, long moribund, exploded. Stores could not keep them in stock. The battle flag became the symbol of segregation.
The flag soon spread. It fluttered from the radio antennas of cars and motorcycles, festooned towels and trinkets, and was exhibited on both sides of the Mason-Dixon line. Some displayed it as a curiosity, a general symbol of rebellion against authority, or an emblem of regional pride. The United Daughters of the Confederacy were split on how to respond, some pleased to see young people showing interest, others calling the proliferation of flags a “desecration.” Newspapers tried to explain the craze, citing explanations from football fans to historically themed balls.
. . .
Over the next two decades, the flag was waved at Klan rallies, at White Citizens’ Council meetings, and by those committing horrifying acts of violence. And despite the growing range of its meanings in pop culture, as a political symbol, it offered little ambiguity.
Georgia inserted the battle flag into its state flag in 1956. Two years later, South Carolina made it a crime to desecrate the Confederate flag. And then, on the centennial of the day South Carolina opened fire on Fort Sumter came in 1961, it hoisted the battle flag above its Capitol.
It was a symbol of heritage—but that heritage was hateful. Two state delegations, in Charleston to mark that 1961 centennial, found themselves barred from the hotel where the ceremony was to take place because they included black members. President Kennedy had to issue an executive order moving the commemoration to the Charleston Navy Base. And when the centennial ended, the flag stayed, proclaiming that South Carolina might have lost the war, but that it was determined not to surrender its opposition to racial equality. |
Flags are symbols. The Confederate flag is a symbol of treason, slavery, inequality, and hatred. Those who defend the flag's presence, at least on State capitol territory, know this all too well.
Edit: They took it down. Good for them.
Last edited by Plain Meaning on Mon Jun 20, 2016 5:08 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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stilicho25
Joined: 05 Apr 2010
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| Posted: Sun Jun 21, 2015 10:12 pm Post subject: |
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| You could say the same thing for the Stars and Stripes, or the Union Jack. History isn't pretty, and most societies have a couple million skeletons in their closet. You can celebrate a societies heritage without endorsing every crime committed by it. |
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Fox
Joined: 04 Mar 2009
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| Posted: Sun Jun 21, 2015 10:50 pm Post subject: |
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| stilicho25 wrote: |
| You could say the same thing for the Stars and Stripes, or the Union Jack. History isn't pretty, and most societies have a couple million skeletons in their closet. You can celebrate a societies heritage without endorsing every crime committed by it. |
There are many flags or symbols against one could make some case, lodge some complaints. The Confederate Flag, however, seems to me to have no redeeming qualities by which complaints against it might be offset or brushed aside. From a national point of view it represents a rebellious violation of the Constitution and the death of many citizens, and one that took place in service not to high ideals or justice, but in service to the interests of a tiny elite whose business was so loathesome to us that we ourselves maintain its illegality. From an ethical point of view, slavery was not merely an incidental feature of the Confederacy, but a sina qua non; it's no coincidence that it was the slave states that broke away, it's no coincidence that those states frequently mentioned slavery in their secession documents, and it's no secret that the states in question wished not only to preserve slavery, but expand it. Finally, from a racial point of view, the Confederacy was dedicated to principles of White supremacy and Black enslavement so explicitly and completely that one really cannot exalt the former without exalting the latter.
I am not saying the Americans of the southern states have nothing within their heritage to celebrate. Rather, I suggest that whatever that something might be, to the extent that it is laudabl it stands independent of and perhaps even in opposition to the Confederacy. Perhaps there is room for memorials to fallen Confederate soldiers, but surely they should be memorials of mourning, not memorials of lionization; places of cold reflection where one goes to lament that lives were thrown away in service to such a revolting cause. The flag itself, however, is quite another matter, especially when done in an official capacity by a government. |
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stilicho25
Joined: 05 Apr 2010
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| Posted: Sun Jun 21, 2015 11:27 pm Post subject: |
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| Well argued fox, but I still disagree. I cede the point that the confederacy got those draftees killed, and that the confederacy was an exceptionally immoral state, but those draftees fought and died bravely, and not just for the vested interests of the slave owning class. They felt their states were in danger, submitted their bodies for its defense, and fought under that flag. I have no problem with war memorials honoring that to fly that ensign. |
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Plain Meaning
Joined: 18 Oct 2014
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| Posted: Mon Jun 22, 2015 2:41 am Post subject: |
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From the other thread,
| sirius black wrote: |
| The confederate flag is a deflection to a large extent. I absolutely guarantee you getting rid of it will not help a thing and if anything makes things worse. |
Nobody has proposed "getting rid of" the Confederate flag. The proposal is to remove it from the South Carolina state capitol. After the Charleston Church massacre, South Carolina must cease endorsing that symbol of hatred as state speech.
As private speech its a different matter, as that is protected by the Constitution. If someone wants to fly the flag at their funeral, that's a totally different matter. |
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sirius black
Joined: 04 Jun 2010
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| Posted: Mon Jun 22, 2015 10:13 am Post subject: |
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| Plain Meaning wrote: |
From the other thread,
| sirius black wrote: |
| The confederate flag is a deflection to a large extent. I absolutely guarantee you getting rid of it will not help a thing and if anything makes things worse. |
Nobody has proposed "getting rid of" the Confederate flag. The proposal is to remove it from the South Carolina state capitol. After the Charleston Church massacre, South Carolina must cease endorsing that symbol of hatred as state speech.
As private speech its a different matter, as that is protected by the Constitution. If someone wants to fly the flag at their funeral, that's a totally different matter. |
Agreed. I wasn't clear enough. I thought it would be understood I meant in the context of the thread, to get rid of it from the state house or on state/local government buildings.
That said, yes, its a start. Totally agree as I said, so they remove it from the state house and then what? The conversation/meme seems to be blaming the flag. Its what we are hearing. Opposition to the flag being flown on the statehouse has been trying to do it for a long time. A worthy goal and it seems the tragedy seems to be seen as their opportunity to 'shame' the state into removing it. Any means, ok. But as I keep saying, the conversation is MUCH more than the flag and that's not being discussed in Charlston or statewide but more importantly as a country. Roof is just the extreme case of a systemic issue that includes incarceration inequality, low quality education in black/brown areas, police brutality, etc. where it creates a permanent underclass. Not just in black (or brown) communities but we can extend that to the 'corporacracy' that we all live under but the race question, elephant in the room, has never fully been dealt with. |
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Rteacher
Joined: 23 May 2005
Location: Western MA, USA
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catman
Joined: 18 Jul 2004
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| Posted: Mon Jun 22, 2015 4:37 pm Post subject: |
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It was revived solely as a symbol of resistance to the civil rights movement.
Internationally it is recognized as a symbol of white supremacy. |
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sligo
Joined: 15 Oct 2008
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| Posted: Mon Jun 22, 2015 6:16 pm Post subject: |
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| stilicho25 wrote: |
| Well argued fox, but I still disagree. I cede the point that the confederacy got those draftees killed, and that the confederacy was an exceptionally immoral state, but those draftees fought and died bravely, and not just for the vested interests of the slave owning class. They felt their states were in danger, submitted their bodies for its defense, and fought under that flag. I have no problem with war memorials honoring that to fly that ensign. |
A lot of Germans fought bravely from 1939 - 1945. Shall we fly their flag too? |
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Rteacher
Joined: 23 May 2005
Location: Western MA, USA
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| Posted: Mon Jun 22, 2015 9:24 pm Post subject: |
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| Well, the Confederate flag is still securely padlocked on the S.C. state capitol grounds, and it will take a 2/3 majority in both houses of their legislature to unlock it - so this thread might be around for awhile ... |
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On the other hand
Joined: 19 Apr 2003
Location: I walk along the avenue
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| Posted: Tue Jun 23, 2015 6:47 am Post subject: |
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| catman wrote: |
It was revived solely as a symbol of resistance to the civil rights movement.
Internationally it is recognized as a symbol of white supremacy. |
You'd be surprised at how respectable it is in some quarters, at least in Canada. And, no, I'm not just talking about Alberta, aka the Lone Star Province.
From southern Ontario, the supposed cradle of anglo-Canadian nationalism...
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Some Sutton Sabres are letting out a mighty rebel yell after their high school banned any image of the Confederate flag this week.
While some students at Sutton District High School say the ban stifles their freedom of expression, the school administration insists the ban was necessary to ensure a safe and inclusive environment for all students.
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Just as likely to pop up in a northern York Region municipality now as it is in sweet home Alabama, the flag represents pride in country heritage, says Miss Winstone, who readily admits she herself doesn't wear any Confederate paraphernalia.
"This is a farming community," she says. "Students have camouflage phone covers, wear cowboy boots, live on farms, go mudding and hunt. I know this is not true for all of the students, but it is true for many of us in this community."
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Rteacher
Joined: 23 May 2005
Location: Western MA, USA
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Newbie
Joined: 07 Feb 2003
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| Posted: Tue Jun 23, 2015 8:44 am Post subject: |
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| On the other hand wrote: |
| catman wrote: |
It was revived solely as a symbol of resistance to the civil rights movement.
Internationally it is recognized as a symbol of white supremacy. |
You'd be surprised at how respectable it is in some quarters, at least in Canada. And, no, I'm not just talking about Alberta, aka the Lone Star Province.
From southern Ontario, the supposed cradle of anglo-Canadian nationalism...
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Some Sutton Sabres are letting out a mighty rebel yell after their high school banned any image of the Confederate flag this week.
While some students at Sutton District High School say the ban stifles their freedom of expression, the school administration insists the ban was necessary to ensure a safe and inclusive environment for all students.
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| Quote: |
Just as likely to pop up in a northern York Region municipality now as it is in sweet home Alabama, the flag represents pride in country heritage, says Miss Winstone, who readily admits she herself doesn't wear any Confederate paraphernalia.
"This is a farming community," she says. "Students have camouflage phone covers, wear cowboy boots, live on farms, go mudding and hunt. I know this is not true for all of the students, but it is true for many of us in this community."
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Sutton, Ontario has a population of about 6000 people. The story you reference was about a dozen or so people who wanted to keep the flag.
That's quite a jump from that story to "You'd be surprised at how respectable it is in some quarters, at least in Canada"
That's like me finding a story about a couple of hundred Neo-Nazis in the UK flying the Swastika and saying it's "respectable in the UK to wave the swastika" |
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Rteacher
Joined: 23 May 2005
Location: Western MA, USA
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On the other hand
Joined: 19 Apr 2003
Location: I walk along the avenue
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| Posted: Tue Jun 23, 2015 9:07 am Post subject: |
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That's quite a jump from that story to "You'd be surprised at how respectable it is in some quarters, at least in Canada"
That's like me finding a story about a couple of hundred Neo-Nazis in the UK flying the Swastika and saying it's "respectable in the UK to wave the swastika" |
Well, except that the kids wearing it in Sutton weren't doing it as neo-nazis(and hence deliberatley placing themselves outside the realm of respectable society), they were just doing it to represent rural culture, and likely considered it to be a fairly non-controversial gesture.
And up until about a day ago, it was for sale in at least one chain store, across Canada...
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A Vancouver-based chain of stores that sells the Confederate flag says that “after much consideration,” it is halting the sale of the controversial banners until further notice.
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And I used to see it for sale or on display all over the place. Granted, that was in Alberta.
I'm not saying that it's the Number One Favorite Flag In Canada, not by a long shot. Just that, at least in some circles, people could wear or display it without provoking much controversy.
I used to know a guy whose university club(engineering, I think) wore it on their club jackets. He referred to it as "that flag from the Dukes Of Hazard", and didn't seem to quite understand why some people took offense at it. So, admittedly, a lot of people who wear or fly it probably don't know the whole history behind it.
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