Korean Job Discussion Forums

PRagic · Joined: 24 Feb 2006

Sure, give your impression of exactly which universities about which you'd care to comment. But you can't generalize those comments to include all universities, particularly when you can't be sure to whom exactly you're addressing your comments. Remember: different jobs for different people at different times for different reasons.

Everybody should go into every job search with their eyes wide open, knowing as much as possible about any given market and potential employer. I would assert, however, that contacting present and, if possible, former instructors would provide more targeted insight than a general 'all university jobs suck' permanent-rant on a message board.

Just face it. Yes, there are some jobs out there with comparatively less than stellar pay and conditions, and, yes, some of the conditions and pay at some bigger name schools (not all) have certainly deteriorated, but there are still plenty of university instructors who are satisfied with their positions. Now, show me someone who is supremely satisfied with every aspect of their job in ANY profession. Doesn't exist.

tophatcat · Joined: 09 Aug 2006 Location: under the hat

tophatcat · Joined: 09 Aug 2006 Location: under the hat

GENO123

We get it. You are out for revenge, not to inform.

PRagic · Joined: 24 Feb 2006

In all fairness, I think it's a mix of both for him. Odds are he was screwed over by one of the bigger name schools, or at the very least came to feel extremely diminished or marginalized there.

The need to share this negative, wounding experience as a potential eye-opener to would be u instructors then somehow morphed into a need to paint all u jobs in a negative light.

Anyone looking for info on what it's like to really work at a K university will take his information as cautionary, but with a healthy grain of salt, and balance it with other opinions, especially from those based at a potential employer.

tophatcat · Joined: 09 Aug 2006 Location: under the hat

GENO123 · Joined: 28 Jan 2010

GENO123 · Joined: 28 Jan 2010

PRagic · Joined: 24 Feb 2006

Lol...it offers subsidized housing, and ANY job will have deductions for health care and pension. Again, so what? Even hagwon salaries are subject to health and pension deductions. I fail to see your point.

This might be a fantastic job for someone, so patently dismissing it as 'not good' is, I'm sorry to say, laughable.

In the end, the take home pay will be higher than the take home pay for a hagwon job, and for a capable instructur, entail fewer actual hours with substantially more vacation time (even at 4 weeks per break as opposed to the standard 8+ weeks).

How many families with kids out there these days actually try to make it on one salary? So, again, what's your point? Imagine a DINK cpuple, both with this type of job. Not bad. You could live off of one income and virtually bank the other. Imagine a single person with this job. Decent salary and an annual vacation to a beach or home while your salary is being deposited. Again, not bad. And I'm not even figuring in any extra made off of overtime, if that option is available and is pursued.

You hype on about HongIk and SNU. Old news. I haven't heard anyone railing salary or conditions at Korea U., Yonsei, U., Konkuk U., Ewha, or myriad other decent small university and college jobs in and outside of Seoul. Why, because people with little ill to say and spread have no reason to come on the board. There have been, however, anonymous posters who have flat out said that their happy with their lot.

Again, people have to judge jobs against their own personal criteria. Optimistically, professionals should go for the best jobs they can get given their degrees, certs, level of experience, and capabilities. The fact is, though, that not everyone is qualified to work at the better jobs, or they don't have the temperment and social skills.

We've all met teachers like the one tophatcat described. They bounce from school to school to school hoping that they can just stay employed that one more year before the word finally gets out and they run out of viable options, even options at the bottom of the barrel.

There are reasons there are crap jobs out there: some people take them to get their foot in the u teaching door; some just want a paycheck and the vacation time to do some travel before heading home; some don't have the requisite degrees or experience to qualify for anything better; and some have worn out their welcome on the circuit and have nowhere else to go; finally, while it may be hard to believe, some people are fatalists and settle - they probably could get something better, but they don't have the confidence to make a move or they think their job is the best they deserve. I've met all these over the 20+ years I've been here.

But I've also met the real professionals who have worked to get where they are. They gravitate to the best positions out there for them (again, different strokes for different folks), and they keep them.

PRagic · Joined: 24 Feb 2006

And I never infered that you were a 'bad teacher', I simply surmised that you had more than likely had a very bad experience at a bigger name university, or that you felt somehow slighted or marginalized.

Maybe they asked you to do things not specifically in your contract (quite typical in Korea), maybe you felt that you didn't get the respect you deserved or that employees looked down on you. Maybe you thought you should have just been teaching low prep conversation classes, but then they asked you to develop and or teach other classes that entail a bit more work. We don't know because you have not been forthcoming about your motivation for painting all u jobs in such a negative light despite evidence and testamony to the contrary.

I've always been very open about my ESL teaching experience. Don't know why you're so cloke and dagger.

GENO123 · Joined: 28 Jan 2010

[quote="PRagic"]

GENO123 · Joined: 28 Jan 2010

PRagic · Joined: 24 Feb 2006

IF your friend with a Ph.D. is in a TT position and has different pay or conditions compared to his/her Korean colleagues, then they have a legitimate beef. IF, however, they have a Ph.D. but are in a contract, visiting ESL instructor slot, then it's apples and oranges, I'm afraid. You simply cannot be in a visiting (contract) prof position, especially if it's an English teaching position, and then ask to have the same course load, pay, and opportunities afforded TT faculty. That won't fly anywhere in the world, and here is no different.

In NO instance, and I know a LOT of TT international faculty at several universities across an array of diciplines (including education), do pay and conditions differ for international and Korean faculty. In fact, most of the international faculty I know of can concentrate more on their research because they don't get bogged down with a lot of the admin work, mostly because that necessarily is done in Korean.

A job is a job is a job. Why does a 'good job' have to mean you can support a family? Do you think you can support a family on a single income as a teacher in Korea? Some do, I know, but it can't be easy. Fact is, for example, K university ESL teaching jobs pay at or above average Korean incomes in education (2,342,857 KRW/month: Source: http://www.salaryexplorer.com/salary-survey.php?loc=114&loctype=1). You'll notice that the average for all salaries is a lot higher (over 5 million), but that figures in some whales. If you want to try and raise a family on that income, that's on you. But, as I said, how many married couples with kids try to make it on one income here (or elsewhere, for that matter)?

Subsidized housing is only 200 a month at that job you posted? Wow, most would JUMP on that. And you have a problem with that? I give up!

Smaller colleges and universities, at least the ones where I know people, offer full time work for full time pay with regularly paid leave during winters and summers. Again, don't know what you're talking about.

How you define 'treat teachers worse than servants'? Seriously. Because that seems to be stuck in your craw. Might just be something personal. And, again, show me anyone in any career who is 100% satisfied with every aspect of their position.

My brothers are VPs at big companies. Along the way, they've been dissatisfied with their actual duties, their pay, their bonuses (constant restructuring), their bosses, and even now at their levels they still work with a-holes and people they can't stand, and they still have bones to pick with their companies. It's called a JOB, and none of them are perfect. So are there problems with many U jobs in Korea? Sure. Other jobs and careers. Sure. We get it. Get over it. Work at a university or don't. Get better jobs, whether in or out of education, or don't.

I said that a person having zero social skills who is a subpar teacher, a person willing to take just about any job to stay employed, is ONE reason that these 'bad jobs' continue to exist. That's it. Supply and demand. Simple enough.

PRagic · Joined: 24 Feb 2006

Yes, I have a Ph.D., but I don't get treated any better than anyone else where I work, and I don't have security unless I work hard enough and publish enough to merit keeping my job, again, just like everyone else. I'll have more security if and when I get tenure, sure, but that's the TT train.

If you want that level playing field, then by all means spend the time and deal with the opportunity costs associated with getting the doctorate, then get published, then roll the dice and try to get a TT job in a very slim job market.

GENO123 · Joined: 28 Jan 2010

PRagic · Joined: 24 Feb 2006

Granted. So taking any given job is a personal choice. Sometimes people have limited choices, dictated by circumstance or what have you, and sometimes it's just a choice. Some schools are strict about working outside, some aren't. Some are strict only the E-class visas, some on all visa classes. Some people worry about getting busted, and some pile on the work and the devil may care.

Even great jobs have a lot of 'ifs'. My sister-in-law is (soon to be was) an exec with a large, world recognized survey and ratings agency. One day she got a call and they told her not to come in to work anymore. Oh, and not to tell anyone else at work or she'd violate a clause in her contract. Positions were being consoldated. She did everything right. Traveled a lot for business? Check. Slammed her quotas? Check. Got the right promotions? Check. Grew the portfolio and customer base? Check. And now this. They'll give her a couple of months to try and find something internally, but if there's nothing around, she'll have to move on. She didn't see the big 'if' coming. Nobody did.

You think TT jobs don't have 'ifs'? Kidding, right? I've seen a good handful of TT profs let go over the past few years for not addressing the 'ifs'. Just the way it is. And, by the way, TT profs not supposed to work outside the university unless they get permission first. Get caught, get reprimanded. Get reprimanded and possibly get passed over for promotion and/or tenure. In fact, at many schools, if you're a lower level assistant prof, you simply can't work outside the university. Period.