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At which Year did you Officially BURN OUT?
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PRagic



Joined: 24 Feb 2006

PostPosted: Mon Oct 24, 2016 8:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Here's an interesting link on comparing (business) cultures. Look along the right side for a list of attributes.

http://www.via-web.de/affective-versus-neutral-culture/
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World Traveler



Joined: 29 May 2009

PostPosted: Mon Oct 24, 2016 10:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

creeper1 wrote:
"by their actions you shall know them. By their actions"

If his actions are that he stays in Korea for a decade you better believe he has something good going on.

Has? No, had. That's why he left. Conditions declined. The market became more competitive. Air quality worsened. And most likely burnout occured.

Five years ago you left Korea for the greener pastures of China and have continued to stay there since.

Since 2011 is a long time.

You could have taught in Korea, Thailand, Vietnam or a bunch of other places in those years.

There is obviously some pull and some attraction to China on your part.

There is something you like. You know it's your best option.

China is an awesome place to TEFL. One of the best on the globe.
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EZE



Joined: 05 May 2012

PostPosted: Fri Nov 04, 2016 9:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

creeper1 wrote:
If his actions are that he stays in Korea for a decade you better believe he has something good going on.


Ten years ago, I was ten years younger than I am now and never had to go to the doctor. Five of the past ten years, I was in the USA. Tonight, I'm in Korea, I'm passing blood, and looking forward to November 14th when I can get national health insurance, which I don't have because of the independent contractor scam even though I'm an employee. Right now, my best option is to stay in Korea because it would take weeks to get a doctor's appointment in the USA, health care is expensive there, and I no longer have insurance there since my last day of work there was August 3rd and I no longer have insurance through my former American employer. So right now my best option is Korea, but with the exception of next Friday night, I'm never again going to lay around on a Friday night passing blood with no health insurance, with NHIS agents telling me I'm an independent contractor even after they read my contract where it says I'm an employee umpteen times.

In 2006, Korea was amazing and great. It has been great many times since then. It's not great now, for me. I can see how Korea is great for many people, as it has been for me in the past, but the past isn't the same as the present. If my health was great, I'd be having a great time here tonight, enjoying the Seoul Lantern Festival, or doing something cool. But tonight, I'm passing blood and feeling like a fool for quitting my job in the USA where, for all of the America's faults, I at least had health insurance. I was viewed as a human being whose health actually mattered by my boss and even by the bureaucrats. It's my last time doing this -- my final contract in Korea. And again, it was a non-issue ten years ago when I was so healthy.

It's not unlike other types of interpersonal relationships, professional and personal. In 2004, I quit my job at a company in the USA where I had worked for six years. The first five years were great, but that didn't mean the sixth year was. It's easy to say, "EZE, you had a blast at that job in 1998, 1999, even 2002, so it must've still been good in 2004!" Believe me, I wish it had been.

Sometimes people get divorced after long marriages, and sometimes it's actually for good reasons. Some of those people end their marriage with happy memories of their honeymoon and happy memories of earlier years of their marriage, but eventually lose their patience over some issue(s). It's not unusual.

The past doesn't always equal the present. If it did, you and I would still be with our high school sweethearts in our homelands and working for our original employers.
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newchamp



Joined: 09 Mar 2013

PostPosted: Sat Nov 05, 2016 10:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Don't worry EZE, creeper1 wasn't being serious with his remarks. He had an agenda.

creeper1 wrote:
Oh yeah. I am cornering the China market for myself. 1.3 billion people and I am teaching them all English. Please!

Obviously I didn't say he was trying to corner it for himself. Rolling Eyes I said he tries to influence people to come to Korea rather than China (where he works). It seems most of his posts have this purpose.

PRagic wrote:
And I'm not on here to start a flame war, so I'll try to work around your final condescending remarks.

Like you weren't condescending here:
PRagic wrote:
It still amazes me just how little people look into aspects of the K culture before deciding to work and live here, especially with all the information readily available on line. I chuckle when I read about people ticked off about rude, stick up K management.

You chuckle? First of all, the kind of stuck up, condescending behavior one is likely to have to tolerate at a hagwon or public school is needless and unacceptable. I don't care if it's culturally acceptable here, or if being racist is culturally acceptable here (Koreans often do it to each other, though). Are you actually condoning the behavior? As I wrote before, it has made me lose some respect for the culture. I hope that's OK with you. You didn't seem like such a cultural relativist when talking about the "b.s." in the Middle East:
Fuzzy_Dunlop wrote:
PRagic wrote:
To each their own. Much too constricting and repressive for me, both in terms of lifestyle and academic freedom, and the better half is too much of a feminist to put up with the b.s. against women.


As someone who lives and works in the Middle East, I'm always interested to see what people who have never been here think my life must be like.

Certainly not all Korean managers or co-workers act disrespectfully, so why should any of them have to? Too bad it's so acceptable here.

Second, I'd argue that there is not much posted online that gets into how common the problem is. "Professional" online articles about teaching in Korea will be watered down and p.c. (By the way, that sociology website you linked to was really abstract and off topic.) Online complaints on message boards tend to make these workplace problems seem like they happen here and there at some unusual places, but from working at many places I feel that the majority of hagwons have at least one worker who has an inexplicable tendency to belittle the foreigner. Hopefully it isn't the director (if it's just a co-worker or two I can disregard them), but unfortunately it often is.

PRagic wrote:
I've been frustrated, ticked off, and even hurt, mostly at the beginning of my time here, but I've studied and learned a lot

Good for you, maybe, or maybe university faculty members (who you've been working for) are less petty. Actually I get ticked off a lot more now than I did when I first came. I've learned a lot too and I don't excuse certain things anymore.
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PRagic



Joined: 24 Feb 2006

PostPosted: Mon Nov 07, 2016 7:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The 'b.s.' in the ME would impact my life and the life of my wife up close and personal, and even outside of the workplace.

The Korean behaviour being characterized would, if allowed, only frustrate me at work; once I head home, once the weekend comes, no need to deal with it.

I meant by 'I chuckle' that I just shake my head in quiet disbelief. From your perspective it is 'needless and unacceptable', but from a Korean's perspective, perhaps it isn't.

Now, this begs the question of whether Koreans should adopt a more western friendly management style if they are managing westerners. The onus, however, is usually on the visitor to adapt to the host country, inclusive of the immediate corporate culture.

My statement about being frustrated, ticked off and hurt concerned work environments quite some time ago. You're correct in that once the playing field gets leveled substantially (everyone has a Ph.D., everyone publishes, everyone takes part in admin), there is, at least in my experience thus far, a lot less pettiness.

Others, in fact others I know, have still had difficulties. Maybe it helps that I speak Korean. Maybe it helps that I've been here well over 20 years and have a pretty good b.s. filter so I don't let things get to me too much. Life is short.
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newchamp



Joined: 09 Mar 2013

PostPosted: Sun Nov 13, 2016 5:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

PRagic wrote:
Now, this begs the question of whether Koreans should adopt a more western friendly management style if they are managing westerners.

No, not really. While some Korean employers may subtly insult all employees to re-enforce the pecking order, I think I explained that a lot of the b.s. foreign teachers get at hagwons is because of the fact that they are foreigners. Some co-workers and directors have a need to "put the foreigner in his place," and it's disgusting. (I'm not saying most are like this, but enough are to ruin a lot of teaching jobs.)

PRagic wrote:
I meant by 'I chuckle' that I just shake my head in quiet disbelief.

Condescending either way. Don't think so? If you're having trouble imagining why I and others get upset over this problem EZE brought up, and want to let everyone know how smart you are by shaking your head "in quiet disbelief" at our feelings, I feel justified in being condescending myself and publicly doubting the value of research a thinker like you could be producing.
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PRagic



Joined: 24 Feb 2006

PostPosted: Sun Nov 13, 2016 5:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I don't think there are cross-cultural management issues at play to be sure. But the fact that managers generally treat all employees that way means by definition that foreigners aren't being singled out, no?

How good is your Korean? How familiar are you with what Koreans in positions similar to yours are experiencing.

At any rate, chill out. It's a chat board. You're denegrating my research based on what I've said in a couple of posts? Yikes! Shocked
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PRagic



Joined: 24 Feb 2006

PostPosted: Sun Nov 13, 2016 5:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I do think...not I don't think...doh!
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newchamp



Joined: 09 Mar 2013

PostPosted: Sun Dec 04, 2016 8:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

PRagic wrote:
But the fact that managers generally treat all employees that way means by definition that foreigners aren't being singled out, no?

No, I didn't agree that employers generally treat all employees that way (the way I described in my posts). In fact, I said the opposite of that in my last post. Please read more carefully, I don't feel like repeating myself.
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PRagic



Joined: 24 Feb 2006

PostPosted: Sun Dec 04, 2016 5:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

This is why I inquired about your time in country, your Korean language ability, and your cross-cultural aptitude. I'm curious as to how much of your perceived slights are truly the product of racial discrimination, and how many play out the same across the board for all employees, to include other Koreans, without your noticing (or being able to notice). Could be a bias in perceptions. Wouldn't be the first time.

And do you really think you're not going to deal with a-hole bosses in your home county who feel the need to 're-I force the pecking order' and to 'put people in their place'? Navigating less than stellar work environments and the occasional personnel land mine is a necessary skill no matter where you work.

I worked under stuck up, power loving schmucks when I was in the Army, and when working in the public and private sectors. Ive definitely seen close family and friends deal with similar types as they've navigated corporate careers.

Is it right that people have to put up with this type of b.s.? Of course not. Does it help to winge about it? Nope.
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newchamp



Joined: 09 Mar 2013

PostPosted: Tue Dec 27, 2016 11:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Back to this...
PRagic wrote:
This is why I inquired about your time in country, your Korean language ability, and your cross-cultural aptitude.

Right, the fact that I don't agree with you must mean I'm lacking time in the country, language ability, or cross-cultural "aptitude."

PRagic wrote:
Does it help to winge about it? Nope.

I feel like highlighting a relevant issue regarding teaching ESL in Korea, to share knowledge and perhaps help people confront the issue, but you reduce my posts to "whining" because I disagree with you and disrespect your condescending attitude.

PRagic wrote:
And do you really think you're not going to deal with a-hole bosses in your home county who feel the need to 're-I force the pecking order' and to 'put people in their place'?

I didn't say I wouldn't, but in my experience it was less common than it is in the hagwon industry here.

PRagic wrote:
I'm curious as to how much of your perceived slights are truly the product of racial discrimination, and how many play out the same across the board for all employees, to include other Koreans, without your noticing (or being able to notice).

I already said that some employers that belittle employees do it to all employees, but among that subset there are some who only belittle the foreign employees (while treating the Korean employees with respect). I find that second scenario far more disgusting. And I also said that it's often one or two co-workers who do this rather than the actual director. And anyone who read my comments carefully would know I said most co-workers and directors do not act like this. Sadly, however, a significant percentage do.

I would say that it's the less experienced foreigners here who would be less likely to notice discrimination that might be going on. I was very willing to give the benefit of the doubt my first couple years here. I was also younger, and at the time I didn't mind feeling like I was some kind of clueless guest in and out of the workplace.

Now I know what the deal is when I see it. If you've been here 20+ years (as I recall you writing) and think there's not much racism in Korea you've got your head up your butt. No, there are no lynchings or incidents of police brutality here. It's more subtle. Hopefully you're in a nice bubble at your university, working with secure and educated colleagues. But maybe you're also lacking a certain aptitude when it comes to reading people. It wouldn't be the first time.
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PRagic



Joined: 24 Feb 2006

PostPosted: Tue Dec 27, 2016 5:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Lighten up, it's a discussion board. I did in fact say that it is unfortunate that there is any type of discrimination in the workplace.

Highlighting relevant issues pertaining to organizational behavior issues at the workplace is all well and good, but trying to understand why these issues have emerged, exactly who is marginalized and why, and where perceptions are grounded on both sides of the fence is more apt to provide the groundwork for change.

So simply saying, 'I find that disgusting,' doesn't do much ch to further a conversation. Plus, you're discussing the actions of co-workers, not the management. Discrimination by co-workers isn't the same as an organizational level bias. This is why I, though perhaps to your displeasure, I wrote it off. I was therefore curious about your cross-cultural aptitude (language ability, time in country) because how you initially interpreted, and then actually handled the discrimination become paramount.

Any potentially marginalized minority group experiences discrimination at the workplace; it may be institutionalize, or, in this case, from co-workers. I'm in no bubble, but the playing field has been substantially leveled. At the macro institutional level, every effort is being made to integrate international employees. At the departmental and personal levels, though, some of my colleagues still experience racism and discrimination, though it's tough to try and put a fellow academic in their place (think that's the phrase you used). It's a problem when it impedes a career, and that is precisely when knowing how to interpret the problem and knowing what to do about it become important.

So, again, you state a personal level problem - discriminatory, racist colleagues. You say that you want to share knowledge about the issue and help people confront it, but I saw no evidence of this in your posts. It's a great goal, and the discussion would have value should it come to fruition.
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World Traveler



Joined: 29 May 2009

PostPosted: Sat Jan 07, 2017 9:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

nicwr2002 wrote:
Plus the fine dust is getting out of hand, and I don't want my child breathing that in.


Try this:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/newsround/35160743
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Hidalgo03



Joined: 21 Sep 2016

PostPosted: Sun Jan 08, 2017 8:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

World Traveler wrote:
nicwr2002 wrote:
Plus the fine dust is getting out of hand, and I don't want my child breathing that in.


Try this:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/newsround/35160743


http://imgur.com/E2SqzRm
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