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wylde
Joined: 14 Apr 2003
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 Posted: Mon Jul 12, 2004 10:02 pm Post subject: 75% of my 800 high school students lie, steal & cheat. |
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It is incredible.. however, it isn't just my current students, it has also happened everywhere i taught in korea..
for example, we are playing bingo this week and i bought a shit load of choco pie type of cakes, so far i have spent 65,000...
anyways.. a requirement of getting your gift when being fist correct to call 'bingo' is presenting your completed homework at the same time..
most of my students rarely do their homework, i only set them a pissy little amount and really have no time to work through the answers with them as i only have them once a week..
yesterday and today i have seen the typical korean student thing of 'borrowing' their friends paper to present as their own when claiming a prize..
when i ask them why they didn't do their homework, they take their friends paper and copy down all the answers in full view of the teacher..
i think it is this heat or something, but, my fuse is very short at the moment.. i have been calling them cheats to their face and explaining in front the whole class that this person is a cheat..
i have made about a dozen cry so far...
i have these 'prizes' in a bag at the front of the room, when i an not looking somebody will run up and 'steal' a prize, or, when they go up to claim their 'single' prize they will take one for their friend also...
upon seeing this i began calling them 'thiefs' and clearly tell them they were dishonest in front of everybody...
"you are dishonest. you stole that. you are a thief.. you are a thief. you are a bad person."
a few tears here too..
around 3/4's of every class i have ever had in korea (save an adult class or 2) behave this way..
what is this type of behavour doing being tollerated?
it seems to be the norm in education here.. i would get murdered for doing this is my high school..
i usually let most of it go.... yesterday and today.. well, nothing has been let go..
anybody who steals goes to the office to be punished by a korean teacher, i don't know what they do, but, when they return, they are nearly all crying
Last edited by wylde on Mon Jul 12, 2004 10:40 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Mosley
Joined: 15 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Mon Jul 12, 2004 10:37 pm Post subject: |
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65,000 W!? Yeesh, I spend about W30,000/yr. on prizes for the brats & I thought I was a sap.
So you teach in public school? Then why give homework at all? Every term, set up an interview test that they have to pass. That can be based on the term's lesson contents. If these are hakwan students, I'd still try to follow a similar policy, if possible. |
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wylde
Joined: 14 Apr 2003
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| Posted: Mon Jul 12, 2004 10:54 pm Post subject: |
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| Mosley wrote: |
65,000 W!? Yeesh, I spend about W30,000/yr. on prizes for the brats & I thought I was a sap.
So you teach in public school? Then why give homework at all? Every term, set up an interview test that they have to pass. That can be based on the term's lesson contents. If these are hakwan students, I'd still try to follow a similar policy, if possible. |
i spend about 100,000 a month on the little buggers..
i give them a little homework cuz there are some students that want to learn.. if some others do it, well, great.
also i use it sometimes as a bargaining tool for cakes and shit.
i really don't have anything i could test them on... they are surrounded by koreans and have only 50 minutes a week with me..
i have tried in every class to get them to say simple things like, "i am going to eat lunch", "i want to play baseball".. they get it but the next day, when i ask them where they're going.. it is just a hand motion and a pause before they blert out "EAT LUNCHY"...
all i am trying to do with these kids is to get them to have confidience when using english... when i first started here the students would run away when i asked them a question.. now, i spose i could say all, stand firm and blert out something close to what should be said...
some have been given F's for the lack of homework alone.. though i suspect some homeroom teachers ammend their grades...
i hate this heat... i wear short sleaves in the snow... heat kills me..
i think that is why i have been a little aggressive lately, both at school and on daves |
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Mosley
Joined: 15 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Mon Jul 12, 2004 10:59 pm Post subject: |
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| Tain't the heat...'tis the humidity.... |
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JongnoGuru
Joined: 25 May 2004
Location: peeing on your doorstep
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| Posted: Mon Jul 12, 2004 11:19 pm Post subject: |
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Wylde,
Oh-ho man! You and this post of yours are just begging for a double-barreled response in the worst way...
I just don't know what that response ought to be. I don't know a thing about teaching (so I should shut my yapper), and consequently I have more questions than answers.
First, is cheating/lying the only way your students are acting up? Or is it just par for the course for the useless, rotten bunch of them? I mean, are they late, play the fool in class, disregard assignments, smart off, etc. as well, or are they absolute little angels in every respect but for the cheating/lying to score choco pies?
Do you teach at a high school, or are these high school-age children you're teaching at a hagwon? If the former, what are bingo and choco pies doing in a high school classroom anyway?
If the latter, maybe these kids simply view hagwon class as some sort of "indoor goof-off time from heaven" in a crushingly busy day -- a place where normal rules & standards don't apply. I've read here on Dave's and have heard countless times from hagwon teachers that Korean kids get pushed into these after-school classes by pushy parents, and that they also generally tend to act rebellious toward foreigners in ways that would be unthinkable (or suicidal!) were the instructor a Korean. Might this have anything to do with the cheating, do you think?
I don't know any of this from independent observation -- just repeating what I've read & heard.
Assuming that you're teaching at a hagwon, and also that there is some basis to the "hagwon vs. high school" theory, does this cheating/lying thing also happen in other classrooms, and what are the other hagwon instructors doing about it, if anything?
Assuming still further that there are "foreigner vs. Korean instructor" dynamics at work here, aren't you concerned that your handling of the problem (confronting the children, calling them cheaters, making them cry, etc.) is unproductively playing into a timeworn cultural script -- for the students, the Korean faculty, and maybe even the parents?
(That script being something along the lines of "Big mean rich powerful ogreish white man, with his cruelly unbiased merit-based rules" vs. "us sweet endearing innocent fun-loving egalitarian little people"...)
The Guru
Last edited by JongnoGuru on Mon Jul 12, 2004 11:21 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Real Reality
Joined: 10 Jan 2003
Location: Seoul
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| Posted: Mon Jul 12, 2004 11:19 pm Post subject: |
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Last edited by Real Reality on Tue Jul 20, 2004 6:00 am; edited 1 time in total |
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JongnoGuru
Joined: 25 May 2004
Location: peeing on your doorstep
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| Posted: Mon Jul 12, 2004 11:29 pm Post subject: |
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Wow! Real Reality Dude comes through with the goods in... what? minutes? seconds???... after the original OP!
Big cheers, RR! (Whatever anyone else here may say about the predictability of your posts, I will say one thing: You be LIGHTNING fast!)
The Guru |
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Real Reality
Joined: 10 Jan 2003
Location: Seoul
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| Posted: Tue Jul 13, 2004 12:53 am Post subject: |
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JongnoGuru,
Thank you.
Last edited by Real Reality on Tue Jul 20, 2004 6:00 am; edited 1 time in total |
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Zed
Joined: 20 Jan 2003
Location: Shakedown Street
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| Posted: Tue Jul 13, 2004 1:06 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
| Assuming still further that there are "foreigner vs. Korean instructor" dynamics at work here, aren't you concerned that your handling of the problem (confronting the children, calling them cheaters, making them cry, etc.) is unproductively playing into a timeworn cultural script -- for the students, the Korean faculty, and maybe even the parents? |
The problem is that these students see him as different and expect him to treat them differently. They don't award him the same respect that they do to Korean teachers and by pandering to them I think he only reinforces this behaviour. Time to get tough. I'm not sure that shaming them is the way to go. Maybe it is. One way or another they have to learn to treat their teachers with the respect that their teachers deserve both in schools (like Wylde's) and in hagwons. Until they take this seriously at all levels (parent, student, management) our jobs will retain a certain ridiculous or farcical aspect to them. I'm disappointed to see that this phenomenon goes beyond the hagwons. I didn't realise the school system was like this. Is Wylde's case exceptional? |
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Real Reality
Joined: 10 Jan 2003
Location: Seoul
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wylde
Joined: 14 Apr 2003
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| Posted: Tue Jul 13, 2004 2:01 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
| Assuming still further that there are "foreigner vs. Korean instructor" dynamics at work here, aren't you concerned that your handling of the problem (confronting the children, calling them cheaters, making them cry, etc.) is unproductively playing into a timeworn cultural script -- for the students, the Korean faculty, and maybe even the parents? |
about the parents..
i have been to several dinners with teachers and parents together.. a lot of the parents have pulled me aside and flat out told me to give their son/daughter a 'hard time' in class and let them get away with nothing.. it is a different setup to a hakwon.
about the students..
if they lie, they are a liar.
if they cheat, they are a cheater.
if they steal, they are a thief.
it actually shut them up the quickest i had ever seen from any form of punishment..
it was funny when they cried.. i laughed at them...  it makes them feel worse and they respond better next time..
big smart asses in the class and they start to howl when i rip into them...
don't get me wrong, i love the little darlings... 
if i upset them now and it stops them doing something wrong in the future, i think i made the right choice..
lets not forget my job here.. i am a teacher.. my responsibility goes beyond just teaching english..
just say, one of these students has the opportunity to cheat in a big test in the future.. he opts out cuz he remembers what 'wylde' told him about cheating... his friends go ahead and cheat and get caught... they are failed, he passes with an average mark...
in the position i hold i have the opportunity to be a major influence in their life and if what i do today helps one of them tomorrow, i did a good job..
besides my handling of the situation, wtf is going on here?
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| Is Wylde's case exceptional? |
thats what i'd like to know, but, i think not..
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| 90 percent of Korea's youth think they live in a country that's corrupt, and a considerable number of them say they're ready to join the club if the occasions calls for it later in life. |
there we have it  |
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Zed
Joined: 20 Jan 2003
Location: Shakedown Street
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| Posted: Tue Jul 13, 2004 2:21 am Post subject: |
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| Real Reality wrote: |
Zed wrote,
"I didn't realise the school system was like this. Is Wylde's case exceptional?"
Read my posts.
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Yes, I realise that academic cheating is an epidemic that is ingrained here. There were other aspects of disrespect mentioned by the OP. the cheating in a school classroom doesn't surprise me. The other behaviour does somewhat. |
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Homer
Guest
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| Posted: Tue Jul 13, 2004 2:23 am Post subject: |
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Wow, you just figured out that high school students lie!
Stop the press.
Call the president.
State of alarm.
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wylde
Joined: 14 Apr 2003
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| Posted: Tue Jul 13, 2004 2:26 am Post subject: |
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| Homer wrote: |
Wow, you just figured out that high school students lie!
Stop the press.
Call the president.
State of alarm.
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don't forget cheating and stealing too...
it sound like you think this is normal, acceptable behavior.. wouldn't surprise me.. you practically have korean blood now.. |
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Homer
Guest
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| Posted: Tue Jul 13, 2004 2:32 am Post subject: |
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Not acceptable in any way wylde.
But you have to be very naive or just dishonest to be "shocked" by this.
You do realize that teens the world over do these things right?
Sorry to hear about your eye opening experience though.
As for Korean blood, was that supposed to be an insult? If so, try harder as it was both irrelevant and frankly not very insulting at all. |
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