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Anti-Korean sentiment...? (long)
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J.B. Clamence



Joined: 15 Jan 2003

PostPosted: Tue Jan 28, 2003 10:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The Bobster wrote:
J.B. Clemence : the problems the Klan has had are problems of history - to wit, they wish to live in another time than the one in which they do. Not a single one of their wierd notions would have been thought unusual 150 years ago. In fact, those values and ideas were quite right (well, not "right" but perhaps appropriate) for their time and place..


I understand that racist views were considered quite normal in America at one time, and that racist anti-foreign sentiments can be considered normal in Korea today. But the point of my post was to say that there are some elements of a different culture or a different time (such as the food, manners, etc.) which can be considered simply "different" and unquestionable; but there are some elements of a different culture (such as racist attitudes) which cannot be excused regardless of how normal they are within the society.

200 years ago it was considered normal and appropriate for white farmers to buy slaves and work them on their land like animals. But as you yourself concede, "appropriate" and "right" aren't the same thing.

Of course it would be ideal if Koreans themselves were to realize that shouting ethnic slurs and beating up honkeys on the subway just because of their race should be considered ignorant behavior in any society (whether most people in that society accept it or not), but I don't understand how anyone could suggest that foreigners don't have the right to complain about such things, saying that "Koreans have different values/a different culture."

I have read several posts by black people explaining how their employment offers in Korea were suddenly withdrwn once it was discovered that they were black. Who here would look such a person in the face and say, "Sorry pal, but that's the way Korea is. You have no right to complain about it or make a judgement about these attitudes, that's just Korean culture. It's not wrong, it's just different."?

As I said before, there are many elements of Korean culture which are just "different" and shouldn't be judged as being better or worse. But racism is not one of those elements. No one should be allowed to hide behind their culture in defense of racist behavior.
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The Bobster



Joined: 15 Jan 2003

PostPosted: Wed Jan 29, 2003 3:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

1. Scott : Yeah, the Greeks invented it, but it went away for a long time, hence Renaissance (rebirth) which started with the arts, as most new ways of thinking tend to, then later spread to science and mathematics.

I also enjoy thailand's cultural ways (told you we had a lot to agree about) perhaps because as a foreigner it's much nicer to be smiled at and accepted rather than to see scowls and have to struggle with people like happens here. Thai people have comparatively little to smile about but they do it so much - I think they've just figured out that it's more beautiful and less expensive than buying all that makeup. I do like Korea, though, and I miss the kimchi when I'm back in California ... though not when I'm in Thailand, haha.

My favorite Woody Allen joke, from Love and Death :

COUNTESS : You're the best lover I've ever had! WOODY : (bashful) Well, I ... I practice a lot when I'm alone.

David Cronenberg directed Naked Lunch, my favorite Canadian behind a camera. He also did Videodrome, maybe the best trash movie of the 80s.

2. J.B. Clamence : The problem with racism is not that it is morally wrong, but just that it is plain wrong, as in "the wrong answer to solve the problem." It doesn't work. It doesn't help you hire the best people to do the work you need done - companies like Microsoft have figured out that their staff needs to be as diverse as their customer base - and it doesn't help you find the best teacher, and it doesn't help the large companies who want to do business overseas to get a handle on what their prospective customers will want to buy ...

In English, these words "right" and "wrong" have both these meanings of moral and practical correctness plus a few more, of course. I think a lot of people get into heated debates which are really just semantic confusions.

I happen to agree with most people who come from where I do that racism is "wrong" both ways ... but I also realize that whatever is morally right is simply an opinion, and thus is no nearly so important as what is practical and what works. I try to explain racism to Korean people this way, an once in while they get it.

I actually have been in the position of having to tell people of color, "Hey, that's the way it is," and while it is not fun it might be kinder in the long run. No, I never tell them to abandon all hope of Korea, just to keep looking and you'll find a school here that's good for you. If a teacher is coming in to a school with a bigoted director and a lot of close-minded parents and students, well, that's not the best place to be, a whole boatload of extra stress-factors on top of the normal adjustment problems.

But there are schools here that hire black people with no problems, and you know what? They are better places to work for a LOT of reasons. What I tell such friends of mine who are looking for work is to keep looking an be patient. I've also had to say similar things to prospective teachers who are overweight, or a bit older than the usual 20-somethings that flock here. I'm 44 myself, into my fourth hagwon contract, and I am persistent when I look for a school ... and careful.

The most practical way to see it is that the fact that Koreans are often racist (and sexist and ageist and weightist ...) is just one more fact about the place, like the fact that it is cold in the winter. Be aware of it and develop strategies to survive in this weather, then wait patiently and hope for an early thaw.

By the way, I'll get flamed for this, but there were times when I was passed over for interviews in California because of my blue eyes and Anglo-Saxon surname. The Hispanic Center wanted an esl teacher, but no call-backs, the Filipino Center wanted one, same deal, elsewhere similar stories. Finally, a kind-hearted secretary happened to mention that, well, perhaps they'd rather hire someone from "within the community," which I didn't figure out at first because I'd been living in the area for a long time ... when I did figure it out, I didn't decide I was a victim, simply that it is the was it is, and that's how it is. Maybe later it will be different but it isn't that way now.

I have a friend here, also teaching and also black. I asked him how he stands the racism here and he started laughing. "I'm used to it, man, got the same thing back home ALL my LIFE - I giggle when I see you white guys having to deal with it for the first time, tho ..."
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Guy Incognito
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 29, 2003 3:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I dont think the real problem here is that everyone realizing that some horrible racism exists in Korea and it's just morally wrong and needs to stop. The real problem here is that this is pretty much the first in their lives that everyone here has stepped down from their ivory towers and has been a victim of racism. This isnt supposed to happen to them and they;d like things to go back to the way it is: Something that happens to someone black.
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scott



Joined: 15 Jan 2003

PostPosted: Wed Jan 29, 2003 5:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

space

Last edited by scott on Wed Jun 13, 2012 6:48 pm; edited 1 time in total
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chigtiymerdekh



Joined: 02 Jun 2003
Location: Johannesburg

PostPosted: Tue Jun 17, 2003 3:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I d just like to make a point on the racism vs. culture thing.


Culture can be seen to be the way that social groups through discourse behave at a certain point or period of time . Why do people reify the term 'culture' as if it is some kind of deity that cannot be challenged ?

Eg " That's our culture" = don't question what I do , you are not allowed to.

Culture changes, is invented/ reinvented/ is dependent on all kinds of forces. You are in Korea. Be a force. Challenge their racism . Why ? Because they are racist against YOU.
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makushi



Joined: 08 Jun 2003

PostPosted: Tue Jun 17, 2003 7:26 pm    Post subject: Re: Anti-Korean sentiment...? (long) Reply with quote

....
Quote:
Rule of law, democracy, and freedom of speech have very little to do with how "the west" developed a strong economy and worker wealth.

It had everything to do with concepts called "capitalism", "industrialization", and "exploitation" just to name a few. "The West" embraced industrialization head-long and allowed workers to be more productive. Instead of twenty workers producing enough cloth fabric for one thousand people per year, industrialization allowed one person to make enough for one thousand. Machinery for harvesting meant one farmer could do the work of fifty. Metalic ore could be removed from the ground and refined into a purer form with a fraction of the workers, thus allowing more workers to work on other projects.

....


Uhhhh not according to a lot of church going Koreans. You see I've been informed that the reason that the US is the strongest nation in the world is because it was founded by Christians. In fact, they say that all developed nations are Christian. And Japan...well they are having their day in the sun because they have been befriended by the U.S.

I theorize that the hostility that is present amongst the foreign community in Korea is directly proportional to the rudeness and brainless arrogance that is demostrated by Korean people as a whole.

All countries are guilty of exhibiting these traits. But the collective amount of it in Korea is, in my humble opinion, far higher than most other countries at a similar economic level.

I'm mean come on, I've never had anybody in my life, except for Koreans, tell me that their "people" were the smartest, kindest, politest (sick!), hardest working, etc. people in the world.

Of course it all comes from an incredibly deep and agonizing insecurity complex which fuels the Korean desire to compete and compare with everybody, including other Koreans.

You ever heard the Korea expression "my neighbor bought some land, now my stomache hurts?" Well that's it in a nut shell, sort of kind of anyway.

But does that make Korea a bad place? I personally don't think so.
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chigtiymerdekh



Joined: 02 Jun 2003
Location: Johannesburg

PostPosted: Wed Jun 18, 2003 3:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Very well said sire . It does make it a kind of a pain in the hars kind of place to live though doesn't it??
I feel it is extremely strange for a country of people that has risen to such dizzy heights of capitalist splendour - houses out of mud huts, mobile phones out of gourds, cars out of nothing ...since 1953, to exhibit such a bizzare hatred, jealousy and contempt for other individuals..not just nations, but individuals , that it beggars belief. What would they be like if they were still relatively poor? You could say North Gorea, but that is an experiement not a country. I think that is hard enought to put up with chip-on-your-shoulder-, blame anyone else type of people on a small scale, say in the workplace, or a classroom - but a nation of 40 odd million of them ??? Phew.

What makes Koreans think they are somehow immune to common human feeling you can find anywhere from Teheran to Cochabamba ?
What is so funny is the ESL community who actually apologise for them and their petty , childish, ignorant, other race hating world view , in THE WORLD'S 12TH LARGEST ECONOMY.

Koreans are a threat - they are a 21st century econoically powerful nation underwritten with an ideology exactly similar to Nazism that crosses all ages, classes and gender there.
Ignore it at your peril.
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The Bobster



Joined: 15 Jan 2003

PostPosted: Wed Jun 18, 2003 8:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Koreans are a threat - they are a 21st century econoically powerful nation underwritten with an ideology exactly similar to Nazism that crosses all ages, classes and gender there.


Talk about yer overblown rhetoric, and to end a post with such a wild statement ... stick a fork in this guy why doncha, he's past done, gone a bit crispy at the edges. Wink

You wanna make a case for such a statement, chiggers, go ahead and try but ya know what? Don't think yer gonna bother, cuz that's the kind of tacked-on bit of nonsense that doesn't represent a serious opinion or a serious pointa view, either - justa seriously wacked out fella getting his kicks trying to make "apologists" boil a bit and then have fun watching the sparks fly.

Ho hum.
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bucheon bum



Joined: 16 Jan 2003
Location: DC area

PostPosted: Wed Jun 18, 2003 10:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

well said Bob. Korea is a threat? to who? itself? perhaps, but beyond that, I think you're going a little overboard. With a population of 50 million (75 million or so if you throw in North Korea) and no major natural resources to speak of, what makes it a threat? And an ideology akin to Nazism? PLEASE.... I don't recall any Korean coming out with a book describing how much better Koreans are than the rest of the world. One just has to look at history and see how much it has been dominated and invaded by its neighbors to dispell that silly notion anyway.

I'm not saying there aren't Korean racists- there plenty of them out there. But to say it is a "threat" is pure hyperbole. The only ones in danger are those of us working in the ESL field here Smile
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chigtiymerdekh



Joined: 02 Jun 2003
Location: Johannesburg

PostPosted: Wed Jun 18, 2003 4:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Wow Korea ( North) is not a threat ? Must be out of touch. Yeah , the peninsula is the new Hawaii.
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HardyandTiny



Joined: 03 Jun 2003

PostPosted: Wed Jun 18, 2003 5:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It this way: You never understand Korean! That is best answer.
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bucheon bum



Joined: 16 Jan 2003
Location: DC area

PostPosted: Wed Jun 18, 2003 9:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

chigtiymerdekh wrote:
Wow Korea ( North) is not a threat ? Must be out of touch. Yeah , the peninsula is the new Hawaii.


Well you were refering to South Korea were you not? You described it as having the 12th largest economy and being an "economically powerful nation". Perhaps you meant to say 12th poorest economy in the world and economically weak nation? If not, I'm not sure where North Korea is relevant to your original point.

Obviously North Korea is a threat; a threat to its "brothers' in South Korea as much as anyone else in the world.
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Dan



Joined: 16 Jan 2003
Location: Sunny Glendale, CA

PostPosted: Wed Jun 18, 2003 9:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ARGH! Hey, how come I can make 1 comment about white society and automatically I hate white people, and lots of people every day say lots of negative things about korea and they are just stating their opinion?

Let me describe this WASP hell that is my home. People here are incredibly arrogant, isolated, intolerant, while at the same time see themselves as worldly, intelligent, compassionate and blah blah blah.

See a black person on the street in my 'hood, he is either a thief, a crook or really cool depending on which suburban demographic he comes upon.

But I keep my mouth shut, laugh at seemingly innocous but insulting comments, "but i thought you guys were good at math, ha ha ha"

bear stereotype, and act like a sane, functional human being.

blatant racism isn't so bad, its when you are standing in line at the movie theater and the white guy next to you gives you that look of disapproval, like he has more right to be there than you. that kills. it really drives me nuts.

And I've said this lots of times, I can't imagine what it must be like to be black. Probably a little better and a little worse at the same time.

anyway, thats my counter rant. and all i'm stating is that, whereever you come from has problems that aren't very different. is korea more extreme, probably.
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William Beckerson
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 19, 2003 1:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm glad that someone went out of their way to dig up a thread that died five months ago just because the other thread on this topic wasnt roomy enough for them.

Hey, while yer at it, howabout digging up a few threads about how the mods are all nazis?
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gatohorrible



Joined: 02 Jun 2003

PostPosted: Thu Jun 19, 2003 2:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sorry..I only joined, like , in June, like , so I have a question to the 'Seonbaes'.
Are things down the list off-limits ?
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