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This ticks me off!!!!
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lastat06513



Joined: 18 Mar 2003
Location: Sensus amo Caesar , etiamnunc victus amo uni plebian

PostPosted: Tue Jan 18, 2005 11:32 pm    Post subject: This ticks me off!!!! Reply with quote

I saw this ad on Dave's today about a company that will verify degree holders for a small fee.

http://www.eslcafe.com/jobs/korea/index.cgi?read=14685

I want to ask you, what will you gain from turning your fellow expatriates?
Yes, the next person might not have a degree, but is that for you to decide if they should stay or go?

My answer is no.
The true fault lies with the school and immigration office to do the checking. If they want to be shafted by a crackpot who just got off the plane, so be it, because they will learn better to check more carefully.
Let me ask you this, even if you have a degree, what makes you a better teacher?

Remember that shifty teacher from Konkuk Un., yes he got caught , but he was a faculty member for about 3 years before someone said anything. Why? because he get good evauluations from other faculty members and from the students he taught. From what I remember, it was a disgruntle co-teacher that finally turned him in.

I know I keep on mentioning about this, but I'll finally tell you my reason; I was offered a job at a local college and I was competing with the Belgian Ambassador's daughter for the job (keep in mind, she was still in college and was deciding to finish after her father's diplomatic tenure is up). They chose her, why? They didn't have to offer the same benefits package as me as a native speaker and give her less money (their reasoning, she already has enough money, why pay more.). And then another time, a friend of mine was going for a hogwon job in Yongsan Gu, but was passed over for an officer's wife because they wouldn't have to sponsor her like they would my friend.
Neither of these people had the qualifications for the job, but because the owner was looking to make the maximum profit with little effort, they passed on highly qualified teachers.

So, how will turning other teachers in to authorities clean up the profession or give us any respect?

The Koreans disrespect for teachers is deep rooted in their psyche because they are truly suspicious of their own educational system, not only us.

And I was told by an old Korean co-worker once that most Koreans think of teaching as a primarily women's job because they view the pay too meager for men. That's why we have so many women working in our institutes instead of men, the mere fact that men belong in the office while women belong in the school.

And most Koreans view teaching as a last resort if they can't find any other kind of job. The reason for that is because the high percentage of post graduates in the job market. So, an average Korean who sees a foreigner teaching generally thinks they are here because they can't find a decent job in their own country.

I always say the best way to clean up the industry would be to create or push for some kind of standard, like requiring a CELTA or DELTA or only accepting BED holders, or offer some kind of national teacher training program, then that would put a dent in it.

Or form a lobbying group to clean the industry by pushing for better work conditions and job protection along with a viable verfication system. The institutes have their own lobbying group in the assembly, why can't we?

This brings a question; if you were an owner, would you hire a middle-class Canadian or American whiner who will complain at first sight of trouble while trying "see the world" or a lower class man or woman who is willing to work their butt off because they are thankful you are providing them a job?

So, it is necessary to clean up the industry as well as our own house in regards to this problem.

But let the Koreans take care of it.

Remember, what goes around will certainly come around at a later date, keep that in mind.
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Rather_Dashing



Joined: 07 Sep 2004

PostPosted: Tue Jan 18, 2005 11:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

you forgot to input the "/rant" command

Confused
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kangnamdragon



Joined: 17 Jan 2003
Location: Kangnam, Seoul, Korea

PostPosted: Wed Jan 19, 2005 12:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Why not just call the university? Why pay a fee?
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lastat06513



Joined: 18 Mar 2003
Location: Sensus amo Caesar , etiamnunc victus amo uni plebian

PostPosted: Wed Jan 19, 2005 12:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Rather_Dashing~ exactly!

kangnamdragon~ Because this person thinks that most schools don't know how to research a school or how to find numbers or he thinks most schools are too lazy or busy to do that and would rather pay a pansy to do it for them.
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schwa



Joined: 18 Jan 2003
Location: Yap

PostPosted: Wed Jan 19, 2005 1:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I cant fault the advertiser -- theyre offering a legitimate & legal service to directors who might be alarmed at prevalent stories about faked degrees & maybe feel inadequate to do the background checks in english themselves.

Sure, the duty should lie with the govt, but they as much as admit they cant check every visa applicant thoroughly. If they decide to do an indepth crackdown on an institute though, its still the director's butt on the line.

Its just free enterprise -- offering a service where theres a perceived need.

This has nothing to do with turning in colleagues, as far as I can see. Why did the OP make that leap?
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dutchman



Joined: 23 Jan 2003
Location: My backyard

PostPosted: Wed Jan 19, 2005 1:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Seems like a good business idea to me. Not sure why you are getting so worked up about it. Sure it's the responsibility of the employer to verify the degree but if the employer feels it's worth it to save himself the hassle and pay someone else to do it, what's the harm?

And, if this guy really does have the experience to do it, more power to him.
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dutchman



Joined: 23 Jan 2003
Location: My backyard

PostPosted: Wed Jan 19, 2005 1:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

schwa wrote:
This has nothing to do with turning in colleagues, as far as I can see. Why did the OP make that leap?


Exactly. There have been some coworkers that have ticked me off but never to the point that I would spend my own money to find dirt on them.
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itaewonguy



Joined: 25 Mar 2003

PostPosted: Wed Jan 19, 2005 1:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

WHY pay someone to check anyway! can easily do it yourself!



people need to remind the korean people that their president doesnt have a 4 year degree! he never attended college!
not to mention he president before him kim dae jung was a middle school graduate! I guess its ok to run a country without a degree. but DONT EVER try to teach ABC's to children with a degree in MATH! or radiology!

ohhh god! koreans koreans koreans korean! please help this people!

the whole ES issue is getting out of hand now too..

now the lastest rumor is.. teachers used that site to talk about the sex they had with their kindergarten and elementary school kids!
how all English teachers in Korea are rapists and all hold fake degrees who come here to korea to rape school children and woman and just take money!
Its amazing how these journolists AND ever editors agree to print such BS! I had a korean woman I know call me last night and she went off at me! to say is it true do all you foreigners in korea molestor and rape kindergarten children!??
after I swore at her and called her every name possible! how could she be so ignorant to even think all teachers in korea could do such things!
she replies.. NOT YOU.. I know you wouldnt.. but how about the others!
then I just hung up on her! before I said GROW UP!

koreans can be stupid as many other country people!
but to print this crap!! and put it on the NEWS! TV!!
for god sake!!
they really want to try and put other nations down!
one day it will back fire on them!
look at the world as a school ground just a bigger scale..
one day Koreans will be WANGTA!!


Last edited by itaewonguy on Wed Jan 19, 2005 2:00 am; edited 1 time in total
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FUBAR



Joined: 21 Oct 2003
Location: The Y.C.

PostPosted: Wed Jan 19, 2005 1:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I wish I thought of that idea. It's a good money maker in light of the recent anti-ES press that has hit the country of late.

If you want to angry at anyone, take it out on the Kongkook guy or the playboy.
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J.B. Clamence



Joined: 15 Jan 2003

PostPosted: Wed Jan 19, 2005 2:10 am    Post subject: Re: This ticks me off!!!! Reply with quote

I don't understand what all the fuss is about. This guy is offering a legitimate and honest service to help schools make sure that their applicants are telling the truth about their qualifications, so if you are, then you've got nothing to worry about, and if you aren't, then that's your fault. To blame this guy for what he does is kind of like blaming the police after they arrest you for robbing a bank.

Also, I don't see this as someone turning in their "fellow" teachers. What makes you think this guy is even a teacher? There was nothing in the ad that suggested he was. And even if he is, he's not performing this service as a teacher, so does it matter?
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chronicpride



Joined: 16 Jan 2003

PostPosted: Wed Jan 19, 2005 2:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

edit-

After having time to think about this, I retract my original criticism of this initiative. I do feel that something like this could be in order, if the profit-ended of things are held in check. But, I'd like to see it expanded to criminal record checks, which I feel carries a far more greater risk to the industry, than concerns about guys with fake degrees diluting our earning potential.

So, I do support, at least a hybrid of something in this direction. I do wish, however, that there were a lot more creative initiative put towards the directors and recruiters who are the cause for all of this to continue happening.

So, good luck Phil, but please don't stop there and hopefully direct a portion of your profits to addressing the bigger picture.


Last edited by chronicpride on Wed Jan 19, 2005 4:52 am; edited 2 times in total
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Yu_Bum_suk



Joined: 25 Dec 2004

PostPosted: Wed Jan 19, 2005 2:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

lastat06513 wrote:
Rather_Dashing~ exactly!

kangnamdragon~ Because this person thinks that most schools don't know how to research a school or how to find numbers or he thinks most schools are too lazy or busy to do that and would rather pay a pansy to do it for them.


He's probably right.
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Homer
Guest




PostPosted: Wed Jan 19, 2005 3:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

While I agree with the OP that immigration and schools are to blame for not verifying degrees properly, I do not think using the "its their own fault for not being careful so lets blame them forever" attitude will solve anything.

Turning in another teacher is not something I would do but I am all for tougher checks when it comes to degrees. I think eventually a good system will be in place but that this will take time.
I also hope they run criminal record checks prior to hiring teachers.

These would be basic measures that would go a long way to clean up the teaching industry here.
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Real Reality



Joined: 10 Jan 2003
Location: Seoul

PostPosted: Wed Jan 19, 2005 3:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

lastat06513 wrote,
"...I was offered a job at a local college and I was competing with the Belgian Ambassador's daughter for the job (keep in mind, she was still in college and was deciding to finish after her father's diplomatic tenure is up). They chose her, why? They didn't have to offer the same benefits package as me as a native speaker and give her less money (their reasoning, she already has enough money, why pay more.). And then another time, a friend of mine was going for a hogwon job in Yongsan Gu, but was passed over for an officer's wife because they wouldn't have to sponsor her like they would my friend. Neither of these people had the qualifications for the job, but because the owner was looking to make the maximum profit with little effort, they passed on highly qualified teachers."

If wives of foreign ambassadors are teaching English, then do they need a teaching visa? If they teach English for free, then do you care?

Embassies take active role in teaching English
A number of embassies and foreign educators are getting involved with teaching Koreans how to improve their English and knowledge of the world's different cultures,... Wives of foreign ambassadors and advisers in front of the Seoul English Village yesterday. Over cups of coffee, the committee brainstormed on the best ways students can experience life in foreign countries without the expense of traveling.

"For example, Australia's national day is on Jan. 26, so the day before we are planning on having a party and a special presentation to teach the kids about Australian culture," said Village Mayor Mary Louise Heseltine, the wife of Australian Ambassador Colin Heseltine.

Patty Hill, the wife of U.S. Ambassador Christopher Hill, said that despite the heavy presence of American pop-culture in Korea, face-to-face relationships are rare.
By Andrew Petty and Jonathan Dart, Korea Herald (January 18, 2005)
http://www.koreaherald.co.kr/SITE/data/html_dir/2005/01/18/200501180030.asp
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shakuhachi



Joined: 08 Feb 2003
Location: Sydney

PostPosted: Wed Jan 19, 2005 3:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

lastat06513 and itaewonguy, you are voices of sanity. As for the others, why not start a campaign to allow only teachers with a bachelor in education to teach? Oh thats right, you dont because most of you dont have one. Talk about hypocrisy. No your bachelor of science or basket weaving does not make you qualified to teach english.

As for the whole 'english spectrum scandal', the comments, when removed from their context seem bad, but when you read the whole thing it is clear that the posters were talking about a certain kind of Korean girl, the kind that like white men. The kind of girl that hang around disreputable bars in Itaewon seeking foreign flesh. There are these kinds of girls in every country, not just Korea.

Are foreigners in Korea to bow down and apologise to Koreans for every comment ever made on an anonymous BBS? Would Koreans do the same for us? How many times have Koreans implied to me that western girls are s-l-u-t-s? Face to face and not on a BBS.

If Koreans could read the posts I made about Korean history on this BBS, they would get angry because part of what I described was Korean women walking bare breasted in the streets well into the 20th century. Koreans would denounce it and demand I be punished but it would still be true.

One of the problems in Korea for westerners is that all the media targeting foreigners is in Korean hands and always take an anti foreigner position if it conflicts with the Korean position. A genuine media for and by foreigners would have pointed out the fundamental thrust of this whole 'scandal'... which is, "foreigner sleep with Korean girl, foreigner bad!".
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