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Korean Job Discussion Forums "The Internet's Meeting Place for ESL/EFL Teachers from Around the World!"
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jurassic5
Joined: 02 Apr 2003 Location: PA
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Posted: Mon Apr 14, 2003 8:13 am Post subject: Reasons why gyopos aren't hired? |
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i know this subject has probably been brought up many times before, but I am curious to see why all of you here on this board think us gyopos aren't hired as easily as other caucasian foriegners. also, i was bored.
i guess many Koreans would prefer a "white" person to teach them English because they think that they know the English language better than gyopos?
i know for myself, that if i had a choice to learn Korean from either a native Korean or a "white" guy that speaks fluent Korean (like that one lawyer dude from Busan that's on tv), i would probably choose the native Korean to teach me. That's why I find it quite funny that some Koreans get some Europeans with horrible accents to teach them English before people like myself who grew up speaking fluent English. (I say this because some of my French friends tutored English and I couldn't beleive it because I had a hard time understanding them with their accent)
Also, I would feel that the students would be able to relate better to a gyopo than a foreigner.
Anyways, I am just wondering what you guys here on the board think the reasons are....
*if typos appear, forgive me...I am to lazy to correct them. haha
oh yea, please take no offense if you are one of those Europeans with accents teaching English....at least you got a job right? |
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Bulsajo
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
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Posted: Mon Apr 14, 2003 8:36 am Post subject: |
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Korea is the land of appearances, as we all know.
People won't go hiking up a 200m. hill without vests, walking sticks, and knee-high socks (the obvious exception being those families who go hiking in their Sunday best after church- check out mom hiking in heels). Swimmers who can barely dog-paddle are decked out like they're about to swim a 1500im, and packs of ajummas out for some much needed excercise all look like they're off to the Tour de France; Skiiers and motorcyclists aren't 'real' skiiers and bikers unless they have the appropriate attire.
So there you have it plain and simple- gyopos often don't get hired because people just don't want to learn English, they want to be taught (or have their children taught) by someone who- in their way of thinking- looks like a proper English teacher. Where does English originate? In Europe, home of white people. For some Koreans, no Korean (or Asian, or black for that matter) is ever going to be able to speak English or teach English as well as any old run-of-the-mill white slacker. |
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sunlit
Joined: 14 Apr 2003 Location: Ilsan
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Posted: Mon Apr 14, 2003 4:53 pm Post subject: ALSO, the U-hak koreans are to blame |
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kyoppos are not being hired not only because of their appearance. in the past, alot of koreans that "studied english abroad" ( really means drank and partied all their family's money away in the states) came back saying they were fluent enough to teach and ended up botching it up BADLY.
for example, my cousin came and lived with us, learned nothing- but still taught english in korea for several years and is now teaching the taiwanese BAD english.
so another reason no one want's a kyoppo is that they still remember the mess of the past, i can't say i blame them for not wanting to be conned.
p.s. i notice that attractive kyoppos have MUCH less trouble finding jobs |
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girl
Joined: 30 Jan 2003
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Posted: Mon Apr 14, 2003 5:14 pm Post subject: |
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what is a kyopo in your definition then?
people in korea consider me a kyopo because my parents are korean, if you want to get techincal, i'm actually american canadian who just so happens to have parents who are korean. the first time i ever set foot in korea was two years ago to work.
but, the dog gone people in korea don't care about that. they're all interested in me and my credentials and are ready to have me sign the contract and come over until they ask for a recent photo and where my parents are originally from. i'm what i would definately consider to be one of those more attractive kyopos with the right kind of experience, in korea and the united states, and if i say so myself, i don't think my looks are too shabby either.
i'm having a harder time this time finding work because i don't have the great people like i did the last time fighting for me because of my experience not because of what i am. i use to work for a big name company in seoul two years ago and was asked to stay as an academic director but for personal reasons could not. i'm still waiting for a light bulb to go off in one of these wierd backward way of thinking heads and am hoping they will say "hey, this girl is great,look at her work history. let's hire her" instead of "hey this girl has a great work history. oh, but look at her, she looks too korean, so what could she possibly know?"
so bottom lining it, what you posted just ain't true sista/brotha. |
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Zyzyfer
Joined: 29 Jan 2003 Location: who, what, where, when, why, how?
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Posted: Mon Apr 14, 2003 6:40 pm Post subject: Re: ALSO, the U-hak koreans are to blame |
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sunlit wrote: |
kyoppos are not being hired not only because of their appearance. in the past, alot of koreans that "studied english abroad" ( really means drank and partied all their family's money away in the states) came back saying they were fluent enough to teach and ended up botching it up BADLY.
for example, my cousin came and lived with us, learned nothing- but still taught english in korea for several years and is now teaching the taiwanese BAD english.
so another reason no one want's a kyoppo is that they still remember the mess of the past, i can't say i blame them for not wanting to be conned. |
Those people are not kyopos.
Kyopos are Korean-Western mixes, or people who had Korean parents, but were raised outside of Korea.
Kyopos are not students who travel overseas, then come back to teach bad English.
jurassic5: If you want to learn Korean, and you'd learn it from a native Korean, as opposed to a white guy who speaks fluent Korean, what's so hard to understand about Koreans wanting to learn English from someone with a white face? I'm not sure what you meant there...
...anyways, the other point you made is good. Kyopos could have stellar English, but, as Strongbad...er...Bulsajo said, they don't look like they should. |
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sunlit
Joined: 14 Apr 2003 Location: Ilsan
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Posted: Mon Apr 14, 2003 6:44 pm Post subject: |
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doesn't matter how i define a kyoppo, what matters is how korea defines it and that's a korean face. i live with it, so suck it up, girl, you'll get something.
"better" or more prestigious college degrees/ graduate degrees also trump the looks. if you're going to play the game, try to find out the new rules. |
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jurassic5
Joined: 02 Apr 2003 Location: PA
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Posted: Mon Apr 14, 2003 7:04 pm Post subject: Re: ALSO, the U-hak koreans are to blame |
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Zyzyfer wrote: |
jurassic5: If you want to learn Korean, and you'd learn it from a native Korean, as opposed to a white guy who speaks fluent Korean, what's so hard to understand about Koreans wanting to learn English from someone with a white face? I'm not sure what you meant there...
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my point is, yes i would want to learn from a native speaker....so "it's hard to understand" why koreans would just want a white face to teach them english, when sometimes its not their native language (ie: french, dutch). i mean, just watch some of those arirang shows...god...some of the people on their shows have the worst accents i've ever heard. i guess my point was more focused on their accent/native tongue rather than race. sorry to confuse u.
well, back to doing my taxes again... |
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sunlit
Joined: 14 Apr 2003 Location: Ilsan
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Posted: Mon Apr 14, 2003 7:19 pm Post subject: Re: ALSO, the U-hak koreans are to blame |
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Kyopos are not students who travel overseas, then come back to teach bad English.
True, but to koreans, a korean face is a korean face. there is little to disassociate one from the other in their eyes. those that studied abroad, and kyoppos that moved at a late age (and have heavy accents) did teach in many schools and did do an awful job. therefore, ALL kyoppos bear the brunt of it. |
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rumibaer
Joined: 25 Mar 2003 Location: U.S.
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Posted: Mon Apr 14, 2003 8:24 pm Post subject: Re: ALSO, the U-hak koreans are to blame |
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Zyzyfer wrote: |
Those people are not kyopos.
Kyopos are Korean-Western mixes, or people who had Korean parents, but were raised outside of Korea.
Kyopos are not students who travel overseas, then come back to teach bad English. |
I feel what Sunlit is saying, and IMHO she was not necessarily stating in black and white terms that "yoo-hak-saengs" ( korean students studying abroad) ARE the gyopo's who have set the bad example. but rather~ that in the past such occurences were common, and in fact still common today- and that those yoo-hak-saengs teaching english contribute to the korean mindset of not wanting a "korean" to teach their children english, be the "korean" in question a yoo-hak-saeng or a gyopo.
Then again, everything is relative I suppose, because I know quite a few yoo-hak-saengs who taught english in Korea, purely through being able to boast that they studied at university in the U.S. ( and thus.. must have mad english skills), made good money, and were also able to enjoy the benefits of being treated as not just an employee, but a fellow "native", whereas some caucasions, or even some gyopo's are regarded as outsiders.
just my 2 cents ^_~ |
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panthermodern
Joined: 08 Feb 2003 Location: Taxronto
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Posted: Mon Apr 14, 2003 8:31 pm Post subject: Kyopo Biased |
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Another reason why Kyopos are not hired by Korean Hakwons is a bias against Kyopos for simply not being "true" Koreans by both by management/ownership of the Hakwon and by the parents of the students and the students themselves.
Many Koreans do not think that Kyopos are "real" Koreans and that they are biased against them. This is especially true towards Korean owned schools with Korean Clients.
I personally work for a "Kyopo Company", Korean American Owned and the majority of our students are "Kyopos" as well.
I have heard first hand from the parents who are largely Kyopos (I deal mostly with early EFL education) that (in Seoul anyway) there are actually "two kinds" of hakwons;
Korean run Hakwons are run by Koreans (duh!) for Koreans. They prefer to hire foreigners under salaried contract (ie cacasians) to teach English and they propogate the myth that Koreans cannot teach English conversation. These schools profit handsomely from this as well. Korean instructors are religated to TOEFL, TESL and TOIEC test preperation, and are paid on commissioned bases. Koreans like these school because it is "buying local" and that foreigners (including) are viewed as hired help.
"Kyopo Hakwons" are much fewer and specialize in "Returnees" and foreign born Kyopo students. These schools (as does the one I work for) hire Kyopos more commonly and this is appreciated by our clients.
While I doubt that there is such a clear division but I can understand the principal and the ideals behind it.
Kyopos are outsiders in of themselves in Korea and many Koreans do not want or trust them because, simply, they are not Korea. Kyopos also "stick together" when in Korean and prefer Kyopo Instructors.
I don't claim that I understand this internal bais and division, I am just sharing what I have experienced and heard. |
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mokpochica
Joined: 21 Jan 2003 Location: Ann Arbor, MI
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Posted: Mon Apr 14, 2003 8:41 pm Post subject: |
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Korean people can really be stubborn about that Korean face= cannot speak English well (or shouldn't speak English well) thing.
I have some examples from some Korean-American friends. Some were traveling on the subway together, speaking English (since they were both American). Some other Koreans came over to them and told them (in Korean) to stop showing off by speaking English and insisted they start speaking Korean together.
Another case was when I was with my Korean-American friend and some Korean friends. My friend speaks both Korean and English fluently, but her English skills surpass her Korean skills because she has lived in the US much longer than Korea. She has no 'accent' whatsoever in English. However, after we left my Korean friend insisted that she spoke English with a Korean accent and that her English wasn't as good as mine. He could hear an obvious difference according to him. I tried to convince him that he just didn't know, but he never did seem convinced. |
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The Great Wall of Whiner
Joined: 24 Jan 2003 Location: Middle Land
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Posted: Mon Apr 14, 2003 8:45 pm Post subject: |
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Quote: |
my point is, yes i would want to learn from a native speaker....so "it's hard to understand" why koreans would just want a white face to teach them english, when sometimes its not their native language (ie: french, dutch). i mean, just watch some of those arirang shows...god...some of the people on their shows have the worst accents i've ever heard. i guess my point was more focused on their accent/native tongue rather than race. sorry to confuse u. |
I asked one of my old boss' this and it all came down to money and trust.
Money: White face means more parents choose the school for their kids to go to.
Trust: What if the Korean-looking teacher teaching my son is not really a native speaker?
I know white people with Canadian citizenship who are not native speakers, but teaching in Korea.
"Gyopos" have better English than they do.
Go figure.... |
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William Beckerson Guest
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Posted: Mon Apr 14, 2003 9:30 pm Post subject: |
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bulsajo wrote: |
Korea is the land of appearances, as we all know. |
Give the man a cigar!
I've said it before and I'll say it again. This business aint about education. It's about making money, and the school with the most whites looks more prestigious to mom than the ones with the gyopos. |
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kiddblount
Joined: 12 Mar 2003 Location: Seoul
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Posted: Fri Apr 18, 2003 8:48 pm Post subject: |
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sometimes students request gyopo teachers if they're not comfortable interacting w/non-gyopos. my employer has a 'no korean' policy, however, so this comfort zone is more imagined than actual. |
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Kleenex
Joined: 10 Apr 2003 Location: Korea
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Posted: Sat Apr 19, 2003 3:49 am Post subject: |
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Gyopos will never be favored as highly as native speakers because there are certain nuances that a native speaker has command of and will use appropriately -- right time, tone, and frequency (as in not overusing it) -- that a gyopo will never master (even if the native speaker can't explain them half as well). You can't become a native speaker through exposure, even long ones.
It would be arrogant to believe that as a non-native speaker you can speak beter English than a native. It's more than having proper grammar and knowing what part of speech a word is; good native teachers will know grammar. However, don't forget that this is conversational English and not textbook English. Most of the time a majority of hagwons only need and should use 1 or 2 gyopos for the lower levels. At the upper levels, let the natives do it.
Playing catch with Barry Bonds for 20 years doesn't make you a great baseball player. |
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