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Non-white teachers in Korea?
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rumibaer



Joined: 25 Mar 2003
Location: U.S.

PostPosted: Sat Apr 19, 2003 5:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

haha ~weird~
"girl" u posted while i was in the middle of writing my reply.
we must be in synch! and u reminded me---Tigerbeer- i too think that you hit on many goof points, and in an objective manner ^^
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Trinny



Joined: 01 Feb 2003

PostPosted: Sat Apr 19, 2003 5:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tiger beer. What is your definition of multiculturalism, then? If there is a large population of blacks and latino, then your country becomes multicultural? Canada doesn't have as many blacks or Latino as US for historical and geographical reason.

I remember recent statictistcs from Stats Canada, saying some 20% of Canadians were born outside of Canada and roughly 12% of Canadians are visible minority. I will find a link to the Stats Canada website for you, if you are curious. On personal level, I've seen and interacted with large groups of Indo-, British-, Scotish, Irish, Chinese, Arab and Somali-Canadians. My next door neighbour is Austrian-Canadian couple; my doctor is Indo-Canadian educated in UK; one of my sister-in-law is the first generation Polish Canadian and I am Korean.
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Jasmine



Joined: 16 Jan 2003
Location: Hongkers!

PostPosted: Sat Apr 19, 2003 8:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Girl and Rumibaer, I agree with both of you in a lot of ways...and believe me, for every ignorant comment we've heard here, we've met 5 beautiful people. Every nation is made up of good and bad and we know that.

I know there's discrimination everywhere.

Quote:
but I can't help but say that it's realistic that any person who looks foreign to a homogenous nation such as Korea is bound to face some level of discrimination. Don't forget- there's a reason that Korea is called the Hermit Kingdom.


But it doesn't make it okay. Korea wants to become a world leader ... how does it expect to do this when it's perfectly acceptable within Korean society to treat foreigners so badly?
I can't count the number of times I've heard "F*cking America" or "Miguk, go home". It's really shocking. I had a student's parent ask me the other day what I thought about Bush and the American people and the anti-Americanism in Korea. I told her that I thought that Bush was fair game and that it's fine to dislike a leader or a government's policies, but that it's not fine to hate an entire nation of people you've never met. I asked her how she would feel if the American people were picking on Koreans living in the States, telling them to go home, singing songs like "F*cking Korea" because of something Roh Moo Hyun had done. She said "oh, I never thought about it like that".
That's the problem. People here don't take into account the feelings of the foreigners they're ridiculing. They don't think how they might feel if they went to another country and people were constantly talking about them, staring and pointing (much like Rumibaer - not fun is it?).
I just wish the people who are pointing and staring (and not hiring ) would put themselves in the other person's shoes once in a while, that's all.

On a sidenote, I'd like to say that I actually like Korea and that the vast majority of the people I've met here have been really sweet to us. I'm not talking about the people who are genuinely curious and shout "hello" on the street as we walk by (although, that gets old and annoying at times). The topic is about racism in Korea, so I'm just telling you about my experience - I'm not pretending life's perfect anywhere else, but I see A LOT of room for improvement here. Koreans are educated enough (have access to enough information) that it shouldn't be like this. A little empathy for one's fellow man every now and then would be nice!

I'd like to ask Rumibaer, as a Korean, i'd like to know whether or not it's polite in Korean society to stare and point and talk about people when they're right in front of you? It's something I've always wondered about. As a little girl, I remember my mother ALWAYS telling me it's not polite to stare at someone because they're different. I figure it's not rude here. This is a serious question. I'm genuinely interested. Many thanks!!!

Jazz!
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Tiger Beer



Joined: 07 Feb 2003
Location: Hong Kong

PostPosted: Sat Apr 19, 2003 9:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Trinny wrote:
Tiger beer. What is your definition of multiculturalism, then? If there is a large population of blacks and latino, then your country becomes multicultural? Canada doesn't have as many blacks or Latino as US for historical and geographical reason.

I remember recent statictistcs from Stats Canada, saying some 20% of Canadians were born outside of Canada and roughly 12% of Canadians are visible minority. I will find a link to the Stats Canada website for you, if you are curious. On personal level, I've seen and interacted with large groups of Indo-, British-, Scotish, Irish, Chinese, Arab and Somali-Canadians. My next door neighbour is Austrian-Canadian couple; my doctor is Indo-Canadian educated in UK; one of my sister-in-law is the first generation Polish Canadian and I am Korean.


Canada is multicultural as well. But it sometimes seems to be a very exclusive multiculturalism.. generally favor going to rich taiwanese, hong kong, korean students, japanese students, educated arab or indian..

Its not that its not multicultural, it is. Its just.. well, i've been there many times.. and i like the mix of people no doubt.. but its still at the core white.. with alot of asians.. and i guess 20% weren't born in canada.. but for the most part, up until maybe 15-20 years ago.. canada was almost all white.. so the 20% foreign born is probably about equal to total non-white people i guess..

anyhow, i do like canada.. and probably shouldn't have veered the conversation in the direction that i did.. but by and large, its a white country with.. i guess probably the majority of the 20% foreigners coming from asia..

anyhow, if i had the inclination.. it would be interesting to see what percentage of 'white' or 'caucasian' there is in canadian cities compared to american cities.. i should go searching for this stuff.. but detroit for example is probably 20% white.. half of the white are probably polish or greek immigrants.. alot of arabic i think its around 5-10% of detroit.. and of course mass majority being black.. maybe 70% i guess..

houston.. its around 30% white.. 30% black.. 30% latino.. 10% asian..

new orleans.. i think maybe again 25% white maybe? i know its predominately black..

new york city.. i think its maybe 25% white? not sure.. i know its really high blacks and latinos though.. i lived there.. and it feels more like 10% white.. but really its more like 25% i think.. and probably at least 5% of the white population is eastern european or russian as well..

miami.. well over 50% latino.. the white population probably being something like 25-30% i guess.. (probably a small but significant portion being jewish).. the black population being significantly significant as well.. around 20%.. but some of them are actually haitian..

washington dc.. i think the black and immigrant population is again quite significant.. the white people there.. probably around 20% i think.. well over 50% black.. some of them actually being ethiopians and somalis and such.. some latinos go there as well.. not that many.. maybe 10% i guess..

honolulu.. maybe 30% white? the asians are well over 60% or so.. i think its nore like 66% asian.. but there are just a few blacks and latinos.. very small number though.. so maybe it could be as high as 30% white.. maybe..

anyhow, i was looking up vancouver.. and its something like 35% asian i think.. maybe 1-2% could be black or latino i guess.. not sure.. but it leaves something like well over 50%.. possibly 60% still being predominately white.. maybe as high as 60%.. its still very multicultural for sure..

i think san francisco might be similar.. having about 35% asian in san francisco.. but then you add the latino population and the black population.. and while there are probably still alot of whites running around in san francisco.. its that same multicultural mix more or less.. i mean if you compare asians versus non-asians.. (specific to vancouver and san francisco).. when you add in the latinos in san francisco.. it brings the white numbers down a bit.. whereas vancouver the white numbers would remain at the non-asian number..

anyhow, i guess vancouver is like san francisco.. but take out all the latino in san francisco and put white people in their place.. (not many blacks in san francisco.. they mostly live in oakland which is majority black).. etc., etc.

i've been to canada many times.. and the cities are predominately white with asians running around.. talking of racial tension and such.. as a white person.. i do feel very comfortable anywhere in canada though.. because its predominately white.. and the asians are very non-threatening.. its a very easy place to be as a white guy..

i just always hear this 'multicultural' and everything else.. but when i'm there i just experience a white country that let in alot of rich hong kong and taiwanese people.. a smart move.. and a recommendable one.. bringing alot of money into the country.. 'multiculturalism' was a byproduct 'name' to call it.. despite its motivation to bring in alot of money from the richer asian countries.. a good move..

but still.. i don't see much of any blacks or latinos.. the canadian cities that i've visited (toronto, vancouver, montreal).. they do have alot of people of other ethnicities.. but to my eyes.. they are still white comparitively.. particularly coming from the States.. i like the projection that they give though.. i mean.. tolerance and happiness and everything else.. but being very specific to let in alot of really rich chinese people is a pretty sure bet to not have much friction, etc.

anyhow.. it is multiculturalism.. its just a very selected and controlled one.. its not even close to the black, latino, asian, and white mix of the States.. but, yeah, you can call it multiculturalism.. sure, why not.. sounds great..

I really DO like Canada.. but its NOT black, latino, white, and asian. It IS white with alot of asians though and a couple 'token' black as we like to say in America.. 'token' black is like when you are watching some movie and some black guy is just thrown in there for appearances.. like sesame street or any kid's show.. to promote the image of 'multiculturalism'.. so yeah, Canada does that.. let in a few somalis or whatever.. just to say its 'multicultural' that way.. Canada kind of does this with its predominate asian immigration promoting.. but you don't see it giving all kinds of allowances to the blacks in sierra leone or wherever.. or haiti or wherever.. you do see it going to hong kong and taiwan just in case the mainland chinese might get you!! oh, and bring ALOT of money from hong and taiwan too.. that kind of thing..
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JW



Joined: 06 Feb 2003

PostPosted: Sat Apr 19, 2003 9:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I am a black guy living in Korea. I am in Daejeon. I have met a total of 6 in the past 8 months. These are teachers. I have met others who are millitary in Seoul. I think there are a few reasons that you don't see many blacks in Korea.(I know your Q is about Asia but I only live in Korea) One is that of the black friends I have in the states who are looking to work in Asia, only 1 wanted to go to Korea. They all wanted to go to Japan for one reason or another. I even wanted to go to Japan based on reports given to me from friends (black and white). Another is racial discrimination. It will of course be denied but by any other name it is still the same thing. I have been lucky with the directors I have worked with. They both told me of the great debate they had in hiring me. They debated with staff and themselves. They debated not over my resume, experience or linguistic skills. They toiled over my color. When applying for jobs with my buddy the replies would follow a pattern. 1. GREAT RESUME WE WOULD LOVE TO HAVE YOU!! 2. Can you start soon? 3. Send a photo and a copy of your current pasport. 4. silence...... I thought it was a fluke the first 2 times but after spending $130.00 in DSL fees I realized that there was something more. My buddy had the same results and has since given up his search. Both directors said that there is a huge amount of racial discrimination here. It, along with abortions and a high sex crime rate is swept under the rug.
Anyway thanks for opening this forum. I hope this fanns the flame of your curiosity. Oh, if this forum gets a bit heated please don't close it as others have been. I come from a place where the ideal is debate raises questions and questions inspire change.
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Tiger Beer



Joined: 07 Feb 2003
Location: Hong Kong

PostPosted: Sat Apr 19, 2003 10:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jasmine wrote:
Girl and Rumibaer, I agree with both of you in a lot of ways...and believe me, for every ignorant comment we've heard here, we've met 5 beautiful people. Every nation is made up of good and bad and we know that.

I know there's discrimination everywhere.

Quote:
but I can't help but say that it's realistic that any person who looks foreign to a homogenous nation such as Korea is bound to face some level of discrimination. Don't forget- there's a reason that Korea is called the Hermit Kingdom.


But it doesn't make it okay. Korea wants to become a world leader ... how does it expect to do this when it's perfectly acceptable within Korean society to treat foreigners so badly?
I can't count the number of times I've heard "F*cking America" or "Miguk, go home". It's really shocking.
I have to go with Girl and Rumibaer on this one..

I mean, I do agree that racism shouldn't be tolerated.. but.. well, I agree with GIRL that you can't be obsessed about it.. and I definetely agree with RUMIBAER because... well, she's experienced this same kind of thing in different places!!

I have as well.. I mean, being a white guy.. I haven't only been in Korea. but I've lived in South America for 10 months.. (mostly brazil).. I've traveled all over Asia as well.. and lived in the New York City among other not predominately white places..

Anyhow, having experienced living with various people of various ethnicities in alot of different situations.. well.. if i got upset every single time someone singled out my 'whiteness' or whatever.. well, i'd better go find some new place to live.. move to Montana or something.. where all the other whites go who don't want to deal with people who might possibly offend me.. or make me feel 'white'..

so i'm not saying that because you are in korea.. its.. well, its 'right' for you to be singled out as non-korean.. but its just always always always going to be the reality.. basing this on alot of years of experiences in being in non-white places.. much like Rumibaer's experience in Jamaica..

Its not right.. of course its not right.. but, I too.. have been to ALOT of other places and spent ALOT of time in other non-white and also non-asian environments..

one other thing.. i've dated women of all ethnicities.. and when i lived in new york city.. my girlfriend was black.. ethiopian features.. anyhow.. i can't count the number of times i had black guys project to me that i'm 'stealing' one of their girls.. and all this 'you take care of 'our' girl'.. meaning since she's black.. and i'm white.. well, don't do anything where we have to kick your ass kind of thing.. and countless other stuff.. and hanging out with my black brazilian female friend one night.. i got knocked down hard by a couple black guys who didn't approve of it.. anyhow.. did i like it? no. - also, i'm sure this exact same statement could be applied vice-versa for a black guy who has dated white girls as well. (this isn't a statement against black guys.. as most I've found to be very cool people.. i'm just saying that what someone experiences in korea.. isn't somehow only isolated to korea and koreans).. it just flows from all sides from all angles in all racial relations where people look and perhaps act and behave a little different.. overall though, in fact, i can't really say it was an issue.. its just.. getting around your own appearance in certain situations..

Anyhow, all things considered.. I don't like that Koreans say 'I'm American' or 'filthy American' or whatever.. but to be honest.. it really doesn't bother me at all.. in fact I get it more from my counter white races than from Koreans.. I can't count the enormous amounts of intolerant trash coming from other white people who aren't of my own nationality.. I find the Korean stuff pretty basic, simple, and almost a joke comparitively.. and really it doesn't bother me near as much..

All things considered though.. being white in korea.. is pretty much a joke on the 'racism' theme.. or even black in korea.. particularly when you look at what it might be like to be.. well, just look at quite a number of countries where there is 'real' racial tension.. too many examples to even go into.. just look about anywhere.. ethnic genocide that erupts from time to time here and there.. just complete and utter true intolerance.. strife in the former yugoslavia, kashmir, kurds in iraq and turkey, south africa, indonesia, etc., etc. all things considered some black guy in korea who has koreans out of curiousity ask about his hair or say 'african' when they see him.. is.. well.. almost a joke.. its not 'racism' its curiousity.. and if they are in class and ask about guns or something.. who cares? inform them and educate them.

I find this easier to do with koreans than 'enlightned' westerners who have false and ignorant stereotypes.. at least the koreans will think about it.. whereas a non-american white person will generally defend his ignorant stereotypes regarding americans.. even if he's never even been there or.. even worse.. if he did make a visit once or twice.. as he'll become the self-projected expert on it..

anyhow, i'm a white american.. and i've had alot more ignorant WHITE people (usually non-american) ask me if i had a gun.. or a large number of other ignorant uninformed opinions/thoughts/projections regarding american people.. so some curious korean who is obviously just curious isn't so bad.. particularly since they seldom will fight and defend their ignorance.. fortunately.. quite refreshing..
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Medic



Joined: 11 Mar 2003

PostPosted: Sat Apr 19, 2003 10:18 pm    Post subject: Non-white teachers in Korea?Non-white teachers in Korea? Reply with quote

Korea needs to become multicultural. There was a thread a while back in which someone said that the more multicultural a country is the more innovative, and adaptable it is to new technology, buisness knowhow and worldwide changes in general. A country like Korea can only become excessivly rigid and inflexible if it doesen't change it's mindset about how to relate to the rest of the world. This was the push behind the Segywha drive of the Kim Young Sam government.
Someone said that ones identity is not something that is fixed in time, or immutable to change, but that it is something that evolves. Korea as a nation doesn't really want change, nor is it concerned about how the rest of the world percieves them. This way of thinking is what's holding the country back, and is what is making life frustrating for the few Koreans out there who do want the best for their country.
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JW



Joined: 06 Feb 2003

PostPosted: Sat Apr 19, 2003 10:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ok another post.
I don't usually post blindly but I did. By "post blindly" I mean posting without reading posts after the initial one. It always amazes me when the issue of racial discrimination comes up denial often follows. I invite it but it none the less makes me smirk. When blacks were hollering about police abuse in LA, New York and other urban cities across America no one believed it. It was too far fetched. "Not officer friendly. He helped me find my cat last week." "My kid was caught steeling and officer friendly gave him a stiff lecture." Then BOOM out of nowhere a tape of a severe beating pops up on the news. Even in Philly with the M.O.V.E. controversey.
Then it is like "oooh you meant beating."
Well people believe me when I and the other people here testifying tell you that it is happeing and has happened. My buddy was told by a recruter that his chances are low to find work because he is black.
Now the "racism is everywhere" statement is a copout. That's upthere with the smoking argument of "I'm gonna die anyway". It is true but it also relieves you from your responsibility of a freakin human and making a stand (big or small).
Ok so there is a small number of blacks in the US but what about several African countrys where English is a commonly spoken language? What about Jamaica,Trinidad the Bahamas. Don't give me the accent thing because I know a cat from Scotland. Cool guy but I can barely understand him. Why not recrut from there. Hell some territories in the carribean have the Queens English down to a science.
I can go on and on but I want to see what the forum has to say.
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JW



Joined: 06 Feb 2003

PostPosted: Sat Apr 19, 2003 10:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Very well said Medic. I'm going to save that one.
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rumibaer



Joined: 25 Mar 2003
Location: U.S.

PostPosted: Sat Apr 19, 2003 10:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ok here's my take on this:
so we've agreed that discrimination rears it's ugly head everywhere..not just Korea, and of course that doesn't make it right.. think that much is pretty obvious. However, there are so many facets to this problem of discrimination and racism that exists in Korea, that we could possibly talk about it forever.

To be brutally honest, many of the posters on this thread have been right in thinking that Koreans are racist against blacks, because a majority are. I know, I know- this does not mean every Korean hates blacks, but it's true that a lot of Koreans hold some kind of prejudice against blacks, indians, or even dark skinned asians- like those from South or South East Asia. Koreans are a very nationalistic, proud people ( as you saw in the World Cup Soccer games of last summer). And for the mostpart, tend to gravitate towards other Koreans. Like I said- and others have said, Korea is a country that has only in recent years seen the diffusion of Western culture reach it's shores. North Korea, who knows when they will ever be able to experience the wonders of the West? Also, it would be wise to keep in mind that each culture and it's people have inherent idiosyncrasies and innate differences. Wouldn't this world be a happy place if everyone was the same? Then there would be no racism, since there would be no difference among people. It's easy to say something like, " oh, if people would just be understanding then there would be no racism". But it's logical that it might be hard to understand people who are different from you. Some people deal with this in a mature and open-minded way, but some people can't accept anything foreign to themselves.

I find that often what makes one thing lovable is also often the very thing which can render it detestable. It makes me sad that Korean people do have that strong nature to associate and relate only to other Koreans- which is what leaves so many people and races on the outside, but it is also in a bittersweet way, what I love most about my people. Korean culture has a word called "Jung". It's really much more than a word. There's no easy explanation for it- but it embodies this overall familiarity, and deep-seated connection that Korean people can feel with each other when they meet other Korean people. It's a very hard concept for non-Koreans to understand, but when one person meets another person~ even if you've never met that person before, you can feel close to that person through "jung". I once asked an oppa of mine ( older Korean guy) if he would consider marrying a white woman. He replied, " I could, but there wouldn't be any Jung." I don't excuse the fact that there are Koreans out there who hate America for no reason, and sing " F-ing USA!". Of course, it's not the calm, rational thing to do- but Koreans are a passionate, cohesive people. That is their weakness and their strength, and as "un-politcally correct" as I know this may sound, this is an indelible mark of the Korean spirit.

In regards to whether it is rude or not to talk about someone who is right in front of you... well to be frank, Korean people do tend to pick on or shun people who are different from themselves. In such a homogenous country, it is still rare in many areas to see foreigners. If you've never seen someone outside of your race for your whole life, you would tend to be a bit interested. When something piques their interest, they will openly talk about it because they assume caucasions don't understand Korean. I see the someone itching to say" well they should be open minded to the fact that foreigners might know the language!" I don't know- it's like how people who are French or Spanish might say something candidly in their native tongue, without thinking that many American, and other people learn their languages in school. If those people have that confidence, look at Koreans, who know that their culture is not well known to most of the Western world still. Most Koreans are probably thinking " why the heck would a non-Korean learn Korean anyway?" If it was explicity known somehow that you did understand Korean, they probably wouldn't be so *sassy* about it. Ah yes, that was another characteristic of Korean people that I forgot to mention- they love to gossip ^^ So, they'll gossip. On the phone. On the subway. In back of you.... this is something known even among Koreans. My mother used to say " when you go to college- don't hang out with other Korean students! They gossip too much!". So while it's not like Korean people don't whit about decorum, at the same rate, they are more likely to express their feelings as they come. But hey- everything is relative. American people may be more about etiquette and decorum, but the barbs that are thrown behind backs, and the false fronts that are put up,albeit are less confrontational, but not any better form of insult than a Korean's muttered comment to your face. Once again though. I must stand by my opinion that these things happen in America too. It may be more glaringly obvious to you at this point since you are a forgeiner in Korea, but I think American people are just as brassy in taking people down. Just today I had a customer, who peeved at my asking for a receipt upon her returning a product, proceeded to call up her friend on her cell-phone and said to the friend ( right in front of my face, while looking at me) " this b**** here. who does she think she is? askin fo' my receipt? like i need to give it to her?"

rude people happen. just don't let bad attitude rub off on you and you'll be straight.
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rumibaer



Joined: 25 Mar 2003
Location: U.S.

PostPosted: Sat Apr 19, 2003 10:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ok.
to the response of JW: saying racism is everywhere is not a copout.
why do i say this? just because someone makes that statement, they are not saying " it's alright." or " we're just going to have to always live like that". It is a statement, and I would argue a fact. Just take it like it is, not as a defense.

that said,

going back to the original post. Even though I myself admit to Koreans discriminating against blacks, I would suggest that you have to really know the actual number of black people who come to Korea, and out of that number, what the rate of discrimination is. Just because you don't see many black people in Korea doesn't mean that there were millions who wanted to come, but only a few could get jobs. There is a certain level of assumption here, that there are many blacks wanting to come to Korea. I'm not so sure that is the case, relative to other races, like caucasions.
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Tiger Beer



Joined: 07 Feb 2003
Location: Hong Kong

PostPosted: Sat Apr 19, 2003 10:51 pm    Post subject: Re: Non-white teachers in Korea?Non-white teachers in Korea? Reply with quote

Medic wrote:
Korea needs to become multicultural.
Sure, coming from multicultural countries.. its easy to project our ideals and such.. but.. how exactly do you promote multiculturalism in crowded South Korea? Just open the doors and let in homesteaders from around the world? And if they move here, will they really integrate that well? Just because it somewhat works in latin, black, asian and white american.. and works in white and asian canada.. doesn't necessarily mean that it will work in Korea.. its my personal opinion that if Korea became.. lets say.. 20% white or something.. I see Korea having ALOT of problems because of this.. either we'd have a colonial like Africa with whites on the top.. or we'd have like a Turks in Germany.. who would do all their white things in Korea.. and probably have little real interest, respect, or even ability to adequately integrate and adopt into the Korean culture to the extent that they should if this scenario were to happen.. in fact most foreigners here don't even know basic Korean for starters.. despite years being here..

Medic wrote:
here was a thread a while back in which someone said that the more multicultural a country is the more innovative, and adaptable it is to new technology, buisness knowhow and worldwide changes in general.
Yeah, thats the system thats been going on in the United States for years. Most of its most talented and innovation is because of its ability to attract, educate, and employ the best and brightest from all corners of the globe. So based on that system of thought, its true. But look at Japan.. and well, any other country that is successful and you can see this isn't the only tried and true recipe for respect. Other countries have done quite well despite their lack of being a multicultural society.. others that are very multicultural.. India for example.. aren't always necessary that progressive nor should they be expected to be either..

Medic wrote:
A country like Korea can only become excessivly rigid and inflexible if it doesen't change it's mindset about how to relate to the rest of the world.
Well, a true statement. But, Korea is somewhat progressive in certain ways.. I mean.. this one guy I know who is from India and living in Korea.. he sees Korea as selling itself out.. everyone running around with business suits, studying engish, shopping, all this stuff.. he wonders how Korea can sell itself out so much to be so modern.. and I'd have to agree.. we're not living in rice paddies teaching English on street corners.. so how can we truley say it is excessively rigid and inflexible and incapable of change? I mean, maybe you could make this statement about India.. maybe.. although its changing.. but Korea.. nah, its changing alot.. just look around.. maybe not overnight immediately in-your-face.. but comparitively to other countries.. its almost a model country for places like Vietnam and such..

Medic wrote:
Someone said that ones identity is not something that is fixed in time, or immutable to change, but that it is something that evolves.
It would be more interesting to hear someone's perspective who has lived in Korea more than the usually maximum 5-7 years or significantly less of a foreign english teacher to really understand this one.

Medic wrote:
Korea as a nation doesn't really want change, nor is it concerned about how the rest of the world percieves them.
What kind of changes do you mean? I guess the extensive internet, the business suits, the millions of english institutes, the nice subway, all that stuff.. i guess.. its just.. ahmm.. i don't know? what changes are needed? are we talking socially? the women need to sleep with more foreigners more easily? you aren't saying that.. but i'm just trying to figure out what changes need to be made exactly..

Actually I was in Korea about 7 years ago.. and its changed alot.. socially in particular.. its a completely different environment than the one i came into.. you wouldn't believe the frustrations I experienced then.. and being here now.. well, its totally different.. and those complaints I had at that time just don't seem to be valid anymore.. things have changed.. and will probably continue to change as well.. its not a static place..

Anyhow.. granted more things to change.. but alot more things also need to change in the United States, Brazil, Colombia, Japan.. and probably I'm going to guess Australia and Canada and probably.. well, probably.. every country in th world needs to change.. and.. they probably will..

Anyhow, Korea definetely isn't perfect.. and it does need alot of adjustment to make it the ideal climate for living on planet earth.. but its not easy to create this kind of thing and circumstance.. it would be nice and magical and academic world's vision of utopia.. but expecting Korea to be like this.. well, probably unrealistic unfortunately..


Last edited by Tiger Beer on Sat Apr 19, 2003 11:05 pm; edited 2 times in total
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weatherman



Joined: 14 Jan 2003
Location: Korea

PostPosted: Sat Apr 19, 2003 11:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

You know rumibear I find your use of the word jung as troubling. Koreans use terms for feelings and emotions that they some how feel are only unique to Koreans. This makes a discourse where you can shut others out because you claim Jung isn't comprehensible to non Koreans. What a load of bull. You give an example of your oppa feeling as if he shouldn't marry a white women because there would be no jung. Yes there would be no jung for the women would not be familiar with his cultural norms of marrage. Here you usage of jung sounds like an excuse and not some unique thing. Koreans do this a lot, had my boss read a zen poem one day and then go on and say you can't understand this poem because you are western. OK, you can't understand Milton because you are eastern? Give me a big old break. I get so tired of this discourse blockage so as to prevent non Koreans from having an equal say about things Korean.

Last edited by weatherman on Sat Apr 19, 2003 11:07 pm; edited 2 times in total
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JW



Joined: 06 Feb 2003

PostPosted: Sat Apr 19, 2003 11:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Rumibaer I definately feel you. I worked in a shopping mall in ghetto USA. I caught hell from many of my customers. Most were black. I can't jump to racism. They were just a holes. I worked for a museum and a computer company as well. Many of my customers at the museum were white. Some were a holes as well. Even then I can't jump to racism. I really didn't care. I just took them as rude. Whatever the source for that was didn't concern me. They could have hated my skin more than the love for their own. I could care less.
What I am talking about here is being turned away from jobs, having parents complain and acceptible poor treatment all based on the color of my skin and the culture it represents.
To echo something Jasmine wrote, I like it here. Aside from all of the hell I catch being both black and from the States I have met some great prople. I wish the best for Korea but it is difficult to watch the culture eat itself alive as the disease of racism takes hold. The Satates is a poor example to follow in this regard. The situation has done more harm than good there. I just hope that the silent voices of opposition to this practice makes their way to the top.
I asked my director jokingly "Who do Koreans like?" His reply..."Koreans."I think he was joking.
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Tiger Beer



Joined: 07 Feb 2003
Location: Hong Kong

PostPosted: Sat Apr 19, 2003 11:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

JW wrote:
Ok so there is a small number of blacks in the US but what about several African countrys where English is a commonly spoken language? What about Jamaica,Trinidad the Bahamas. Don't give me the accent thing because I know a cat from Scotland. Cool guy but I can barely understand him. Why not recrut from there. Hell some territories in the carribean have the Queens English down to a science.
I can go on and on but I want to see what the forum has to say.
Actually this could be very well projected to Filipinos and Indians as well.. significantly closer to Korea as well.. particularly the Philippines..

Unfortunately as to Jamacians, Trinidadians, etc.. I think its more to do with the fact Koreans wouldn't be immigrating or making business deals there.. as they might end up doing in USA, Canada, UK, Australia, etc.

Although, granted it does look suspicious.. but its purely an economic issue i think.. and then when it does come to learning English.. I've heard most British or Aussies and such complain that they have to try their hardest to use an American accent, etc., etc.

and then there is the whole korean-american issue.. how do you explain that one? if anyone should be teaching the plum English jobs.. it should be them.. extremely fluent in English.. and much more familiarity with Koeran and Korean culture.. well, to whatever extent their parents projected it on to them.. (actually on one side of the coin, i've met alot of korean-americans/canadians who do extremely well here as well.. so i can't say its routinely discriminated against either)..
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