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Non-white teachers in Korea?
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girl



Joined: 30 Jan 2003

PostPosted: Sun Apr 20, 2003 7:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

this whole light skin dark skin thing came from many moons ago when there was no western influence on korean society.

if you had light white skin you were considered as part of the middle to upper classes. you never had to work out in the fields under the sun, you had people to do all of that field work for you. you had money, you were a part of the 'yangban' class, you were rich.

if you had dark skin you were considered to part of the lower peasant class. you had dark skin because it is you who is out in the fields working all day, which puts you into the lower classes. you were poor, had hardly any money and have to work hard to get what you want.

hence the beliefs that lighter skin is better than darker skin. also the belief that the more money you have the higher you move up in society and people look at you with more respect.

by the way, just because i'm quoting facts, it does not mean i agree with it.
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Kleenex



Joined: 10 Apr 2003
Location: Korea

PostPosted: Sun Apr 20, 2003 10:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Narsty, I don't think rumi's trying to justify it, just trying to give the reasons for it. Maybe rumi feels that way considering Jung and group identification (does kind of sound like that, rumi), but who's to say since she herself didn't. When a German explains the holocaust, does that make him a Nazi? Obviously, girl doesn't want to be accused of supporting facts and had to basically apologize for stating a well-known fact to fend off any future attacks. Girl's observation of pre-Western-contact Korea is actually not unique. Girl said
Quote:
if you had light white skin you were considered as part of the middle to upper classes. you never had to work out in the fields under the sun, you had people to do all of that field work for you. you had money, you were a part of the 'yangban' class, you were rich
If you read Jane Austin (I admit it, I did) then you'll know it was true in England. Read Gone With the Wind and you'll see it was true in America. I know it is true in Mongolia now (inside information).

The half-life of grudges in Korea It took only 50 years for 50% of the population to forgive the North for invading South. If every 50 years, 50% more is moved toward forgiveness, then in about 450 more years anti-NK sentiment will be statistically non-existent, considering there is not another war! Apply the same to the LA riots, and we've only got 489 more years to go! I should put a smiley here.
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rumibaer



Joined: 25 Mar 2003
Location: U.S.

PostPosted: Sun Apr 20, 2003 1:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

narsty,
your reaction entirely explains how the minsunderstanding of different cultures is perpetuated.

I think I already iterated, that I do not condone racism in Korea nor justify it's existence. All I was trying to do, was give non-koreans some "inside" knowledge of how koreans think and why they think that way.

Taking the simple minded route- wherein all you do is accuse Koreans of racism and yet make no effort to try to understand the historical,social, cultural, and ethnical forces which all ultimately factor in the genesis and development of this prejudice, only serves to make you into exactly the type of person you are saying some Koreans are. You are ready to verbally flog Koreans for discriminating against blacks ( which like i said is wrong) but you yourself only add to the amalgation of ignorance when you testily reply" So what's your point?" and blithely overlook how I have tried to make you understand some of the characteristics of Korean people. You want to solve the problem- but the first step comes in knowing the Korean people and culture better, and trying to step into their shoes.

Well anyway it's Easter, not really a day for casting anyone down- so i'm done. peace.
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Tiger Beer



Joined: 07 Feb 2003
Location: Hong Kong

PostPosted: Sun Apr 20, 2003 7:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

narsty dog wrote:
What makes me laugh is the whites who collude in it all . many of them seem happy that black teachers arent hired , it means more jobs for them . It also means that they feel the benefits of the status thing .
WHOAH! I have never ever heard anyone state this opinion before. Where'd you get this from? Well, I don't know where you are from.. but I'm from the States.. and this kind of thinking just isn't tolerated AT ALL. If I'd ever heard a white guy state this opinion.. or even allude to this kind of opinion.. he'd be quite ostracised in a heartbeat.. there are TONS of jobs here!! TONS! Its no competetion here. Again, I don't know where you are from.. but being from the States, I want to see more african-americans teaching English here not to just 'education the koreans'.. but probably to re-educate some of the English teacher populace as well..
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Tiger Beer



Joined: 07 Feb 2003
Location: Hong Kong

PostPosted: Sun Apr 20, 2003 7:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

hyalucent wrote:
Tiger Beer wrote:

But, partly, I think Koreans see Filipinos differently.. as its not quite the same kind of place as a US/Canada/Australia/NZ kind of place..


There's a bit of an ironic situation here. While many teachers arrive in Korea from the U.S., the reverse is also happening in regard to the Philippines. Filipino graduates in education are on the increase and they are finding success gaining work in the United States.


THATS VERY TRUE! In fact, my ex-girlfriend of the last two years is one of those people.. she grew up in the Philippines and lives in California.. DALY CITY CALIFORNIA is over 50% Filipino in itself.. complete with Jollybee's fastfood and all the rest.. in fact Jollybee Restaurant is spreading around California.. (if anyone has been to the Philippines, you'll see TONS of Jollybees fastfood)..

Anyhow, I can't count the amount of Filipinos I've met.. the demand for teachers and for nurses and hospital care and anything health related is very much needed in the States.. and work visas to Filipipinos are VERY high because they can meet those needs with their education, etc.

Anyhow, I am seeing Filipinos everywhere.. particularly in California.. but I've seen them across the USA and even in my little home town in Michigan.. I brought my girlfriend there and we kept meeting Filipinos.. even though in that part of the States it feels more white (and a little black) than most other American cities..

I took her to Toronto too.. as she'd heard its also good for Filipinos.. we tried to find Jollybee Restaurant there.. but no luck.. couldn't even find the Filipino community.. I heard there are Filipinos there though.. does Toronto or Canada have Jollybee Restaurant yet? Generally, if you can find this fastfood restaurant.. you can find a growing community of other Filipino stores, restaurants, businesses and everything else in the same area..

Anyhow, hyalucent, thats true.. they are finding ALOT of opportunities in the States.. and they have the right education and background to fulfill those needs.. ahh.. yep, that was my ex-girlfriend.. in fact, when I lived in New York I was dating another Filipina but she came across with Accounting as her thing.. usually its more healthcare-related.. but I guess she had the skills needed and got the work visa pretty easily as well..
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Tiger Beer



Joined: 07 Feb 2003
Location: Hong Kong

PostPosted: Sun Apr 20, 2003 7:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

girl wrote:
if you had light white skin you were considered as part of the middle to upper classes. you never had to work out in the fields under the sun, you had people to do all of that field work for you. you had money, you were a part of the 'yangban' class, you were rich.

if you had dark skin you were considered to part of the lower peasant class. you had dark skin because it is you who is out in the fields working all day, which puts you into the lower classes. you were poor, had hardly any money and have to work hard to get what you want.
This isn't only for Koreans.. but I've noticed throughout Asia.. everywhere.. Philippines, Indonesia, Vietnam, Thailand, China, Japan, everywhere!!! Its all like that.. and your reasons are exactly correct..

I don't understand sometimes why we in the WEST are so ethnocentric that everything that happens everywhere is directly because of us? I mean, our sense of self-importance is too high to assume that every culture and nation in Asia made some recent decision that light skin is better solely on the fact that they like white people and dislike black people.. (one step further - if this would be even close to the truth, then why do more than a few white english teachers annoyingly scream racism day and night 24-hours a day?)

Anyhow, good job GIRL to educate someone to the real facts on this much passed around stereotype.. sometimes I just assume people know the real reason.. anyhow, good job that you stated it out once again..
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Len8



Joined: 12 Feb 2003
Location: Kyungju

PostPosted: Sun Apr 20, 2003 10:43 pm    Post subject: Non-white teachers in Korea? Reply with quote

I saw in one of the postings the word "Jung" and how it is supposed to embody the feelings Korean people have when they meet their fellow countrymen. Isn't this just another version of "blood is thicker than water" ? How are the feelings between Korean people meeting each other in foreign countries any different from say the feelings of Mongolians, or Samoans meeting their own kind in foreign countries. We all have that blood kinship feeling for our own kind. Koreans don't have it any different from anyone else. It isn't special, but perhaps something that is a little overindulged in just like "Han" (grief). I think the subjects come up to compensate for some deep seated insecurites some people have about their ethnicity.
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Butterfly



Joined: 02 Mar 2003
Location: Kuwait

PostPosted: Sun Apr 20, 2003 11:37 pm    Post subject: Re: Non-white teachers in Korea? Reply with quote

Len8 wrote:
I saw in one of the postings the word "Jung" and how it is supposed to embody the feelings Korean people have when they meet their fellow countrymen. Isn't this just another version of "blood is thicker than water" ? How are the feelings between Korean people meeting each other in foreign countries any different from say the feelings of Mongolians, or Samoans meeting their own kind in foreign countries. We all have that blood kinship feeling for our own kind. Koreans don't have it any different from anyone else. It isn't special, but perhaps something that is a little overindulged in just like "Han" (grief). I think the subjects come up to compensate for some deep seated insecurites some people have about their ethnicity.


Yes, I thought the same thing about the 'Jung' post. I know that I have an instant understanding when I meet other Brits especially abroad, we also have 'Jung' with each other through a similar humour that others often don't understand. However, I do feel that it means more to Korean people, therefore it is more unique to them. More unique because of language, oppression, upbringing; all kinds of factors. I don't think it is fair to criticize Koreans and their notion of Jung, because it means a lot to them.
Also my point about we Brits having our own 'Jung' makes another point. I have a special feeling for my compatriates, I am a British Patriot and feel that I have a special connection with most other Brits. However, this does not make me feel exclusive or better than other nationalities, it's just a feeling I and many of my compatriates have. I believe Korean people are the same, they have a connection with each other which is very important to them but it is not to the detriment of other nationalities they do not pretend to have any notion of what connections there are between Italians, Cambodians whatever...how can they, you or anyone know? Koreans are the same I believe, they only really know what they have in terms of Jung, and its all that really matters.
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narsty dog



Joined: 29 Jan 2003

PostPosted: Mon Apr 21, 2003 4:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

1. To Rumi B : just because i criticise things in Korea , and the behavior / social structures of contempary Korea does not 'per se' make me racist.
in fact as the korean on here indirecj points out , lots of the problems happen between koreans . As a white maybe you are sugggesting that I m not allowed to hold Koreans to account ( or they me ) over their treatment or attitudes i experienced in their country. This tack is plainly wrong, and nonsense. It s easy to throw 'words' around like 'democracy' , or 'racism,' or terrorist. A lot of the time they lose meaning -
my point ? : if someone criticises a social structure/ habit/ other group , it s the easiest thing to say 'oh yeah , that 's racist' instead of asking whats the real reason behind the issue.


RUMI, YOU SAID : "Taking the simple minded route- wherein all you do is accuse Koreans of racism and yet make no effort to try to understand the historical,social, cultural, and ethnical forces which all ultimately factor in the genesis and development of this prejudice,"

My reply : Do prejudices have a 'genesis'? You make the case that 'history' or 'society' is somehow to blame for Korean attitudes towards other races . i didnt know 'history' ( or society) had a personality .
I thought people had personalities.
if your argument were correct it would make people prey to whim of 'history' or whatever. Some Koreans are racist because they pre-judge other skin coloured people and treat them in a bad way because of this . They choose to behave like that ...or maybe you re right , big bad "history' is making them do it .

2. Butterfly

A: i know you won t acknowledge any thing i write on here , but i ll still say when i think you are wrong . here you are wrong . I m british like you , and can safely i dont feel any 'chong/jung' with you . neither do you with me, from what you said about me before.

YOU SAID: "More unique because of language, oppression, upbringing; all kinds of factors. I don't think it is fair to criticize Koreans and their notion of Jung, because it means a lot to them. "

Interesting comment : A. languages are equal . there is no major linguist who would say that one language is better than another - this is well known in Linguistics. arabic is no more advanced than farsi - same with hebrew and quechua. some languages have more tenses, some have larger vocabularies, but none are 'better' grammatically.

B. What do you mean by opression ? seems you ve been well brainwashed by the folklore there . If your so bothered about oppression , what about all the countires our country England has oppressed . Have the irish got 'chong'??
Chong is used in a sociological way- do you belive in the chinese notiuon of 'chi'/ ji in Korean ?? Energy .
Chong exists to bind people together , make them believe they are 'different' and special - regardless of the 'truth'.

C. if your logic is right , then any right wing group in England, like the BNP ( a white supremicist group ) who are puting up more councillors these days , and are gaining seats every election - they could say " british' for the word 'chong' , it wouldnt matter - it s a way to make a gropu exclusive- exclusivity means keeping others out . If the BNP/ NF claimed they had a word / feeling for britishness and only whites could 'understand ' it , would you agree with them ????
Butterfly, aplpy your logic and see if it s right .


3. Indirecj : thanks for your post . You point out what i have pointed out all along . why should ANYONE of any skin colour put up with unnacceptable behaviour by certain koreans . Correct. Why should they? they shouldn't . except many of the people who got to Korea to teach go there in good faith. they went there to help your country in an area they feel Korea wants them , ie ESl education , but often a strangers and foreigners in a strange place feel they are scapegoats for the problems of Korean history , and easy to blame for whatever, the US, Bush, the Korean War, and easy to rip off , abuse and make use of .
THIS IS WHY I SAY WHAT I SAY .
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girl



Joined: 30 Jan 2003

PostPosted: Mon Apr 21, 2003 4:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

narsty dog:

i don't know who you are or what circumstances you are in. however, by the sounds of ALL of your posts you just sound bitter and angry that you are in korea teaching english to these ungrateful primates.

i think you should just go home to wherever you are from, (and that in no way is negative) stop attacking people on this board and stay away from things all korean. you are just way too negative and way too close minded to be debating anything about anything.

you sound like you hate korea and you just refuse to see the point on any of these posts.

history does not have a personality, but it does influence the way people think and it does for a long while. look at the history of the americas. it influenced the way people thought about blacks and chinese for so long that it still does today. koreans should be held accountable for the things that they do, and so should ever other human being on this earth. we're not trying to make excuses or anything for them. we know it's wrong but there's a reason behind it all and it's that they haven't been re-educated formally and informally enough on the goings on in the world. that's what we're trying to get across to you. but it seems that all you see is red and want to argue and fight and fight and fight. when this happens, you lose your senses and just start babbling and make no sense what so ever.

take a deep breath and relax. leave korea if you are there and just stay away. i am only trying to help. you need to love yourself and others.
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narsty dog



Joined: 29 Jan 2003

PostPosted: Mon Apr 21, 2003 5:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

girl , thanks for your patronising , what would i do without comments like yours. it makes it so much better coming from a girl . i dont live in korea now , but thats none of your business anyway.
i m not a teacher anyway - if thats a prerequisite for posting on this board let me know. i thought this was the general discussion forum.

i like your white ethnocentric view too.

you said : it influenced the way people thought about blacks and chinese for so long that it still does today......

people ?? Oh you mean white people . Like they are the people and the others blacks/ chinese are observed from that 'true' standpoint. I think you'll find the americas were inhabited before the whites got there.

again , you play the game like homer and theothers of placing yourslef in the 'good guy/girl' role ....Oh bitter ndog , if only you could love .....
your definition of love here being exactly what ??? saying X is great , and thus condemning anyone who disagrees with you .
Why dont you realise that socail change comes from people / discourse/ dissenting voices......'history' doesnt happen to people, people make history. Do you get it yet ????????????????
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girl



Joined: 30 Jan 2003

PostPosted: Mon Apr 21, 2003 6:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

no i don't get what you are saying because none of it makes any sense. but let's just agree to disagree it's quite ovbious i'm going to get no where fast trying to debate any kind of subject with you. it's ovbious that it's your way or the highway. you are way to negative and well let's just say i'm not going to deal with you anymore. good luck and i hope that you get far in life with that attitude.
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narsty dog



Joined: 29 Jan 2003

PostPosted: Mon Apr 21, 2003 6:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

getting far in life in the west academically usually means being able to debate critically and rationally - you make a point and back it up - others try to contradict . your suffering from the korean 'emotionalism ' which sees things in terms of 'group memebership' 'love' 'chong/ jung ' precisley what this thread is about . Koreans dont subscribe to a rational , western viewpoint - no problem with that, they missed the enlightenment , they are not western . But it amuses me when westerners in Korea start palying the korean game like yourself and butterfly. Logic and reason go out the window , and emotionalism rules. Maybe you ll do well IN KOREA , but Koreas not the world. and someday you ll have to leave . Institutionalisation is harsh on people .
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girl



Joined: 30 Jan 2003

PostPosted: Mon Apr 21, 2003 6:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Rolling Eyes

you know nothing.......
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narsty dog



Joined: 29 Jan 2003

PostPosted: Mon Apr 21, 2003 8:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

thank you. you just proved my point exactly .
what could have been a proper debate on life in a developing country , just fizzled out into an emotional display of name calling. " Bah , humbug , I hate Narsty dog ". it s my ball , and no ones playing.
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