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Non-white teachers in Korea?
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indiercj



Joined: 30 Jan 2003
Location: Seoul

PostPosted: Mon Apr 21, 2003 2:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hey narsty still doing your stuff? You know how we love ya. Wink
But no, i won't argue with you. Have a nice day.
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rumibaer



Joined: 25 Mar 2003
Location: U.S.

PostPosted: Mon Apr 21, 2003 7:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

narsty, i don't have time right now to quibble with you ( even though you surely deserve it!), but i never said that you were a racist, "per se" or not. If you just assumed that was implied or watnot, that's not my problem Very Happy

and Butterfly....well said! I really appreciate how you worded your post..and I do agree that other cultures may be able to feel their own "jung".... but you were right on in preceiving that it is such a vital and vibrant concept for Koreans.
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rumibaer



Joined: 25 Mar 2003
Location: U.S.

PostPosted: Mon Apr 21, 2003 7:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

OH YEAH!

narsty dog wrote:
RUMI, YOU SAID : "Taking the simple minded route- wherein all you do is accuse Koreans of racism and yet make no effort to try to understand the historical,social, cultural, and ethnical forces which all ultimately factor in the genesis and development of this prejudice,"


My reply : Do prejudices have a 'genesis'? You make the case that 'history' or 'society' is somehow to blame for Korean attitudes towards other races . i didnt know 'history' ( or society) had a personality .
I thought people had personalities.


1. a definition for genesis: The coming into being of something; the origin.

so....if a prejudice couldn't have a genesis, then where would it come from, the air? would it just.....appear? without any reason behind it? yes... i do think prejudices can have a genesis, although most are hard to find. If not, then you'd be assuming that "prejudices" are inherent in human nature itself, which is a dangerous proposition.
2. what are you trying to say with the whole "personality" thing narsty? and once again you are skewing things-- i did not say that "history" or "society" themselves are solely to blame for Koreans' attitudes toward other races, but certainly, those and the other factors I mentionned, all have an effect on the perspective of a nation's people. It wouldn't take a brain surgeon to understand that.. take the U.S. for example, and the pre-civil war era wherein some african-americans were enslaved and forced to work on Southern plantations. That's a part of history no? And undoubtably, that dark part of U.S. history to this day has repurcussions on the way some people think about african-americans. You go to the deep South, the real " Bible Belt" and you can still find ignorant people, to whom blacks remain mere " field workers" and not an equal people. How could history not be pertinent to the development of peoples' views, and factor in some way into prejudices that may exist?
Cool
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JW



Joined: 06 Feb 2003

PostPosted: Mon Apr 21, 2003 9:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Rumibaer
I think you and Narsty dog are arguing the same point. I don't think he is saying that history does not help to develop a situation. I think he is saying that, and I agree, history is not stagnant and it is made up of people. Events are caused by people, their reaction and action. Narsty am I wrong? I think this would go a little better if we don't get our back up and jump to the defense. I mean people we all agree that it exists in Korea and throughout Asia. That is the bottom line. I do my part in disuading (sp) it. That is how things change. I agree with Narsty when he says that change is brought about by protest, unfavoraqble speech, unpopular speech. This is what I personally value. I do not dare censor the speech of the Klansman so that mine will remain protected. I lived in California, Louisiana and Georgia. I had altercations with Klansmen and skinheads. I met those who are prejudice and racist. I have been turned away from jobs in the states. I pay taxes there for goodness sake. It is there. Believe me. It is not in some far off corner of Texas. It is in print. AIt is in the schools, family homes ect.
I think the most frustrating thing is to come 14 - 15 flight hours and find that it is alive and well. Well as for the origional question, I think there are several reasons. Racism (dare I say it) is a huge one. Nuff said. 1
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weatherman



Joined: 14 Jan 2003
Location: Korea

PostPosted: Mon Apr 21, 2003 9:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

rumibaer wrote:
and Butterfly....well said! I really appreciate how you worded your post..and I do agree that other cultures may be able to feel their own "jung".... but you were right on in preceiving that it is such a vital and vibrant concept for Koreans.


And once again that Koreans use aspects of their cuture to try to make them look so super special that foreigners can't understand. By doing this you cut foreigners out of an equal discourse about things Korean which is plain wrong. Sure it is vital and virant concept for Koreans, but it is understandable and usable to non Koreans also. My point is it is dishonest to use one's culture to prevent outsiders from having a contribution to it. It bothers me when some student, usually in some ethnic nationalistic fit says to me "you can't understand what I am trying to say, foreigners can't understand jung, or han, bunuiki, chemyon.... the list goes on. Korean culture can be a hard nut to crack, but can be done, and this learning is very fluid and at different stages for different people.
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rumibaer



Joined: 25 Mar 2003
Location: U.S.

PostPosted: Mon Apr 21, 2003 9:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

argh~ honestly some people are so thick headed.

weatherman- take it any way you like sugar, but just fer your info-
i was just saying that Butterfly picked up on how important "jung" is for korean people, that comment was not meant to convery anything besides that. can you deal with that? that last comment was not some manifesto on how everything is so special for Koreans and no one else can understand blah blah blah.

hypersensitivity is rearing it's ugly head i fear, watever.... it's all good people. Very Happy

and i'll say it again.. kudos to Butterfly!
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weatherman



Joined: 14 Jan 2003
Location: Korea

PostPosted: Mon Apr 21, 2003 9:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

rumibaer wrote:
and i'll say it again.. kudos to Butterfly!


You are right, I should shut up, you win.
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Tiberious aka Sparkles



Joined: 23 Jan 2003
Location: I'm one cool cat!

PostPosted: Mon Apr 21, 2003 9:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Kleenex wrote:


Kind of like saying, "Oh, Damon? He's great. I don't even think of him as a black person." When my friend Damon told me about that one about a decade ago I immediately thought, "Daamn, have I ever said that?"


There was actually an Arirang mini-docu this weekend about an actor from India named Lucky (you've probably seen him on TV; Indian guy with bleached hair), and while they were interviewing one of his (Korean) friends, she made the same statement, almost verbatim.

Made me cringe.

As a hilarious sidenote, I was denied the right to rent an apartment on the weekend because, as the real estate agent/swindler explained to my wife -- unaware that I could understand every single word -- the apartment owners (*cough* Hansol apts. in Bundang *cough*) didn't want foreigners living there. No matter, I found a better place. Still thinking about my options tho. Anyone know about anti-discrimination laws in Korea (I swear, I'm not being sarcastic)?
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Arthur Fonzerelli



Joined: 22 Jan 2003
Location: Suwon

PostPosted: Tue Apr 22, 2003 3:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

narsty dog wrote:

Basically koreans are wanna be followers of the white people with capitalist dreams of world domination and no respect for the environment ( US kyoto protocol rejection etc. ) as long as they keep up their 'comfortable' lifestlye.


Man, you are bitter... Move on bro, move on...
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Len8



Joined: 12 Feb 2003
Location: Kyungju

PostPosted: Tue Apr 22, 2003 5:24 pm    Post subject: Non-white teachers in Korea? Reply with quote

Picked up this discourse on rascism somewhere

Some people are rascist because it's traditional to be rascist. With these people prejudices may act as an outlet for the frustrations of the dominant culture. The target group functions as a scapegoat, something to blame for the troubles of the dominant culture. Other people are rascist, because they need to preserve their status. The groups who are most prejudiced in a society tend to be those who have the least status within the dominant group. these people at the bottom of the hierarchy of the dominant group strive to feel superior at least to the objects of their prejudice.Others are rascist to relieve their frustrations over having misfortune.
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Tiger Beer



Joined: 07 Feb 2003
Location: Hong Kong

PostPosted: Tue Apr 22, 2003 8:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

weatherman wrote:
And once again that Koreans use aspects of their cuture to try to make them look so super special that foreigners can't understand.
To be honest.. I really don't think foreigners can adquately understand Koreans..

Why? Well, online on these posts.. I see it over and over and over.. we just do not.. I see foreigners constantly banging their heads on the wall with frustrations.. and making all kinds of excuses..

I really like being in Korea.. I like Korean modern culture to a certain extent.. well, lets say in actuality, I like my life here.

I, however, do not understand Koreans.. and most of the time I like being a foreigner here.. and I like the perspective I'm allowed to have..

Why do we have to be apart of this 'jung'? who cares if they feel it or have it or whatever.. who really cares? why do people get so upset to the point of tears because some korean says they feel jung with another korean by they might not with you? who really cares? let them have 'jung'.. sheeshes frickin christopher almighty!!

Its obvious the foreigners aren't feeling 'jung' with the Koreans.. its so obvious..

Anyhow, despite that rant, I for one, don't mind this, and still enjoying being in Korea..
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Medic



Joined: 11 Mar 2003

PostPosted: Tue Apr 22, 2003 11:03 pm    Post subject: Non-white teachers in Korea? Reply with quote

Korean Jung, Han, and Hyo
Jung, the Korean Thing
by Min-Sang Kim

Koreans often speak of "jung" as an inclination or motivation to be kind to people mentally near them- meaning exactly that. Wherever there are warm-hearted people, there is kindness galore. The reason for some special type of kindness explained by "jung" is, however, aboriginal to Korea alone. "Jung" is quite a unique motivation to perform an act of kindness, in that it is beyond benevolence or logic and requires past interaction between the receiver and the holder of "jung". Helping a man carry a heavy box is a common act of kindness, if it is motivated by benevolence or just pity. What explains the motivation of the helper-without any malice-, however, if there is an old grudge between the two people? In fact, the helper need not even be a kind person to perform an act of kindness out of "jung". All "jung" needs is some sort of past between the holder and the receiver of "jung", good or bad, that will make the holder of "jung" to be inclined to perform kindness. And past relationship doesn't necessarily mean longevity in the length of time, which makes "jung" even harder to grasp. It may take a second, or tenth of a second at that, to make "jung" in a person's heart, depending on the person, or the situation, or both. Logic has no place in "jung". Although no logic can be applied to explain "jung", the strong tie "jung" has to the past gives room for guessing. A relationship with a person involves more than the relationship itself. Let's say that you, the reader, were bullied in Junior-High, and you suddenly meet this bully, after all this time, on the street by chance. You may feel like punching the bully right in the face, or you may feel a warm, wonderful sensation that reminds you of the happier days of Junior-High School. The latter feeling is, in my opinion, a close example of the source of "jung". "Jung" is a strange mixture of emotion¤¤ derived from the past that brings out the kindness in people, in an unexpected way that cannot be explained by logic.

Korean's "Jung"
by Moon Mi-jin

Koreans are very emotional and warmhearted because we have "Jung" in our mind. "Jung" means doing a favor for others and wishing them happiness in the mind. Koreans do not make a calculation of profits and losses. For example, supposed that we bought three apples at a small market, the owner should give us an extra one because Koreans think it is a virtue to give something more. "Jung" might have something to do with our history and society. Many countries near Korea have attacked our land for centuries, so Koreans have helped one another, stuck together to guard our country and regarded neighbors as myself. In addition, Korea was an agricultural society, and our ancestors worked together through "Pumasi" which took turns cultivating fields and shared products with all of the villagers. Koreans have a heart with humanity. When someone walks the street with a heavy burden, Koreans do not leave him alone, and help him to carry it to the destination. If a Korean asks you, “May I help you to carry your burden?” you do not have to worry weather he is a thief or not. Koreans are kind and gracious to others owing to "jung" in our hearts. We have to show our "Jung" to foreigners at "Korea & Japan World Cup" in 2002, and then they will never forget our country forever.

Jung
by An Dong Kwan

Koreans consider "jung" as an essential element which needed to their society. So then what is the jung? First, jung is a love to family and friends. Everyone has a warm emotion and a careful mind toward his familiar people. In this way, jung is expressed between familiar people. Secondly, jung is a love to people in the neighborhood of you. Living in the society, everyone must meet another member of the society. Therefore, it forms a relation and an understanding between people, and it makes a kind of love which connects people. Even they are in relation of mutual enemies, sometimes they appreciate each other truly. If a third party attempts to destroy one's old enemy, he tends to cooperate with his enemy and defeat a third party. Of course, it is an extreme example, but it says that the jung can be found wherever relationships exist between people. Lastly, jung is a love to people in this world. Although they do not know each other, there are invisible connections between people in the world. When the time comes to be a stranger, everyone find out that there are many kindness and familiarness between people who know nothing about each other. Jung includes this kind of love between strangers. Now to conclude, jung can be interpreted as a love in a broad sense. Koreans believe there must be jung where is any kind of human relations and it makes their society more warm and more worth while to live.

Do You Know What "Hyo" Means?
By Kan, Min-ju

If you look up "hyo" in Sisa's Elite Korean-English Dictionary published by YBM in 2000, you will be able to understand that "hyo" means "filial piety(devotion), filial duty, obedience to parents." However, a single meaning of piety, devotion, duty or obedience can not cover the meaning of "hyo" wholly. Under Confucian tradition, "hyo" has greatly influenced on Korean society on the whole. Confucianism emphasizes on a group rather than an individual and the order of rank is highly stressed. In the order of rank, especially in family, the concept of "hyo" was produced. "Hyo" was formed in the relationship between parents and children. From the old days, parents in Korea cared for almost everything about their children. For example, they fed and educated their children and also provided warm nests. They were always concerned about children's health and futures. They did not spend most their energy, interests, and money for themselves. They regarded their sacrifices as natural virtues which parents should give to their children. They decided to devote themselves to their children instead of preparing for their old age. When they were too old to support themselves, they cherished great expectations to their old age that their children would guarantee. They were sure that their children justly would back them up as recompenses of their self-sacrifices. Therefore, from the former years almost every eldest son in Korea lived together with parents to support them. After taking these factors into consideration, we can realize that "hyo" includes children's responsibilities to support their parents. In conclusion, "hyo" contains the responsibility to provide mental and financial supports besides a piety, respect, and obedience to parents.

Han Shown in Sopyonje
by Park Su Jin

Korean famous director, Im Kwon Taek depicts the Korean emotion Han in his movie, Sopyonje. Han is an emotion peculiar to Korea arising from endurance and patience. In the movie, main character Song-hwa lives with her stepfather reciting a dramatic song, Chang. Because her father believes only Han can make a perfect voice containing depth, he makes Song-hwa a blind to complete a voice, so she bears Han in her mind. Besides, her brother- though they have different mother, she likes him- go away, so Song-hwa can't see him when missing him. This also causes her Han. Song-hwa expresses this feeling with heartbreaking song. When she sings walking along a winding path and sings for adding to the amusement in the kisaeng house, her voice carries a kind of depth and sorrow. Audience can also feel Han watching her empty eyes. She always looks at a distant mountain absent-mindedly. In these way, Sopyonje shows Han and arouses sympathy of the viewers making them understood why Song-hwa has Han.

Meaning of Korean "Jung"
by Oh, Su Ji

"Jung" means friendly, helpful and warm emotion that represents a traditional and unique character of Koreans. Koreans always share their suffering and happiness. Since ancient community, when someone suffers from flood, fire, sickness and death, all of neighbors have helped someone. They have gathered at someone's home, and have brought foods, cared child, cleaned rooms... etc. It's same way when somebody has something good like weddings, and births. All the people have congratulated and shared their happiness. One of the examples about "Jung", Koreans have "Dure" since ancient community. Koreans have helped each other when they are very busy to harvest through the "Dure". They have sowed and reaped together. Koreans tend to like touch, especially for children. It's comfortable and natural sight that elder people pat young children in Korea. In other country, it's very uncomfortable thing that stranger touch children. However, Koreans think that they don't have "Jung". Because Koreans have "Jung" much, Koreans think lovely children like own sons and daughters. "Jung" is something warm and friendly to explain exactly hard. As a matter of fact, this character is disappearing a little in big city these days. However, "Jung" is still unique and characteristic emotion which represents Korea.



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LiquidSunshine



Joined: 31 Mar 2003

PostPosted: Wed Apr 23, 2003 7:31 am    Post subject: what r people arguing about? Reply with quote

i don't understand what everyone is arguing about...this may be idealistic but it's real simple. racism is wrong and it shouldn't be tolerated. not from the west, not from the east, not from the old ajoshi sitting on a park bench, not from a young kid who's told how to think. as a people, humans are equal and that's it. (jung it up all you want. it ain't nothing special. it doesn't make anything different....)

why this isn't common knowledge...baffling to say the least. after all this world has seen.

the hate is wrong and that's it. it's not up for argument. if a teacher, which was the kick that started the ball rolling, doesn't get hired because of his color then it's wrong, no if or buts about. no excuses about blah this, blah that. it's just wrong. that's it.

so pick up your bongos, put a pipe to your faces and live it true. (a peace pipe... Wink )
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narsty dog



Joined: 29 Jan 2003

PostPosted: Wed Apr 23, 2003 4:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

indiercj : you wont argue with me , because you cant . you re the guy who had a go at some teacher on here , inferring they were sleeping with your ( korean ) women cos they were a teacher in a university .
that s what makes me post about you like i do. you would straight faced say to 'foreigners' that "in korea we show respect to teachers / 'witsaram' " blah blah , but under the auspices of a forum , would insinuate that any foreign teacher 'sure like the company ' of [korean] women. Why shouldn't they ? Who are you to tell anyone who to like or not ? Kim Jong Il ?? I thought we were talking about SOUTH korea not the north ?
This is the nasty seed under the surface that makes me distrust you and your ilk . "Oh yeeahhh , man . Wanna drink ?? " And then curse us to some 'hyong' when you go to the toilet .. I m not stupid. But you think we are.
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Len8



Joined: 12 Feb 2003
Location: Kyungju

PostPosted: Thu Apr 24, 2003 11:51 am    Post subject: Non-white teachers in Korea? Reply with quote

Maybe this guy indereici is one of the many Koreans without jung. Jung is the accumulation of maturity based on certain behaviours. The jung of the younger people is usually lacking somewhat, and with many of them it never ever gets beyond having a vague sense of " right and wrong".
He could also be somebody who due to deep seated inadequacies who needs to feel superior at the expense of someone else
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