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The Republicans are morally and intellectually bankrupt.
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R. S. Refugee



Joined: 29 Sep 2004
Location: Shangra La, ROK

PostPosted: Sun May 01, 2005 8:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

wannago wrote:
R. S. Refugee wrote:

Time for some moral consistency, conservatives. Your silence is deafening.

. . .
R.S., I've come to the conclusion that you just don't have a *beep* clue. I couldn't care less where you were raised but your pseudo moral superiority certainly seems to come from Canada rather than the southern U.S.


Well, you've certainly achieved the "consistency" part of my admonition anyway, wannago. I figured you would. And as for accusing me of sounding more like a Canadian than a product of the former Slave States of America, thank you. That's kinda of what my Carolina cousins used to think too.

Mind you, I've met lots of nice folks with pro-human rights and pro-racial justice values from the South over the past couple of decades. Their values often seem more strongly planted for having seen the damage that an entrenched anti-human rights culture can reek.

(Now, what would your minister think if he/she heard you using language like '*beep*', wannago? ) Very Happy Laughing Wink
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wannago



Joined: 16 Apr 2004

PostPosted: Sun May 01, 2005 9:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

R. S. Refugee wrote:

(Now, what would your minister think if he/she heard you using language like '*beep*', wannago? ) Very Happy Laughing Wink


Embarassed Yeah, ya got me on that one. Dam...errrr...Darn you and your pseudo moral superiority! Wink
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R. S. Refugee



Joined: 29 Sep 2004
Location: Shangra La, ROK

PostPosted: Sun May 01, 2005 11:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

OK. Well, wannago wasn't embarrassed to weight in with his take on my post. I'd sure like to hear the views of other conservatives, especially those who chastised me for a slow response to someone picking on the German "race" with the shall we say somewhat mild epithet, "Kraut."

I won't start asking you for a response by name at this point on the issue of this post. But, it may come to that if you don't respond, just as I was specifically questioned on my slow response to the German ethnic slur issue.

I know that a lot of you chaps are intelligent enough to see the blatant racism in summer wine's post without me pedantically explaining it to you. Silence implies consent.

R. S. Refugee wrote:
Summer Wine wrote:


That the leader of my country doesn't speak out against muslims now, because it was made aware to my leader that they held a sizeable number of votes in the electorate. There was and is more going on then we are made aware of in the media.
This was a discussion with friends of mine and they are more in the know than me.


So, you seem to be thinking that the "leader " of your country should "speak out against" ~ one billion fathers, mothers, sons and daughters who are Muslim people of faith. Hitler certainly earned himself an enduring reputation when he spoke out against millions of Jews. And then carried his speaking out into the realm of acting out his bigotry and hatred.

So, how did these "friends of yours" get to be so much more "in the know" than you? "

Was there a secret handshake involved? Do they read comic books that require a higher level of reading skill? Or is it just the case that most anyone is more "in the know" than you?

All ridiculing humor aside, you make no sense whatsoever, but that shouldn't stop you from trying. Who knows with effort and application, you might get your infantile "arguments" to the point where they warrant refuting . If you lay off drinking so much of that summer wine. Very Happy Laughing Wink

PS. And I couldn't agree more with the Bobster about this example of deafening silence from our conservative friends in their (non) response to such blatant and dangerous racism. I think it is much more serious than the "Kraut" thing (no offense intended to Dogbert).

The Bobster wrote:
The silence from wannago (and the other deep blue conservatives around here) about this comment is a truly amazing thing to behold ... not.


The challenge for you here is that some forms of prejudice and bigotry are so engrained that those who suffer the most from them can't even see them as such. I was raised in the (former) Confederate States of America, so I have a bit of familiarity with that type of moral blindness.

You can't use the excuse that this guy (?) is so brain dead that he doesn't even warrant responding to either. That's what a lot of Germans in the 1930's said about the Nazis. And we all know what that led to.

Time for some moral consistency, conservatives. Your silence is deafening.
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The Bobster



Joined: 15 Jan 2003

PostPosted: Sun May 01, 2005 3:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

wannago wrote:
For the record, here's how I read this statement by Summer Wine:

To me it read as a put-down of President Bush (what else is new? Rolling Eyes ). I may be wrong about SW's intent, but it seems to be saying that he would be slamming Muslims if they didn't comprise a sizeable portion of the U.S. electorate. In other words, Bush, according to SW's friends, is a Muslim hater but can't/won't speak out because they may vote against him or the party. It's anti-Bush, not anti-Muslim. So, who's being inconsistent? That's right, R.S. and bob. What else is new?

In truth, Summer Wine's post is BOTH anti-Bush and anti-muslim ... and the inconsistency lies in the refusal of yourself and the other righties around here to acknowledge and respond to the fact that Summer Wine is very clearly not speaking about extremist muslims following a terror agenda, but rather of ALL muslims.

Summer Wine :
Quote:
I was also notified that the Muslim communities in the USA were coming together to have greater influence in politics, that the muslims are gaining control in france and will soon have full.

It's fear-mongeriung and bigoted speech. And wannago is silent and then he defends it as just being "anti-Bush," and his predictable hypocrisy is boring.

wannago has never seen hate speech that he agrees is worthy of the name - he probably thinks there is no such thing.
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Summer Wine



Joined: 20 Mar 2005
Location: Next to a River

PostPosted: Sun May 01, 2005 5:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Firstly, to my critics, thank you for you well thought out and reasoned responses. I appreciate them more than personal attacks that led no where.

Secondly, the point that I was trying to make was that political awareness and a desire to have a more political role in the countries where muslim immigrants live in does exist. Whether non muslims are aware of that fact or not.

Thirdly, there is no law in a democracy that states that a democratic and liberal environment has to continue regardless of who controls the number of votes.

Fourthly, it is not fear mongering to raise a point that the religion of a person may in fact determine thier political leanings and what they consider acceptable behaviour in a nation. That behavior may not be what is currently accepted.

It is not wrong to raise questions nor is it racism to point out that ones desire to be at peace with the world with a multi belief system may be incompatible with other peoples desires and that this may not change regardless of what you change about your self and the society you live in. This was the main point I was trying to make, obviously not well considering the responses. But thak you again for your constructive criticism.

(post reading, I still feel I am not making my point clearly, though I am not a US citizen, so I was not making any statements about Bush, my leader is some one else)
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wannago



Joined: 16 Apr 2004

PostPosted: Mon May 02, 2005 3:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The Bobster wrote:
wannago wrote:
For the record, here's how I read this statement by Summer Wine:

To me it read as a put-down of President Bush (what else is new? Rolling Eyes ). I may be wrong about SW's intent, but it seems to be saying that he would be slamming Muslims if they didn't comprise a sizeable portion of the U.S. electorate. In other words, Bush, according to SW's friends, is a Muslim hater but can't/won't speak out because they may vote against him or the party. It's anti-Bush, not anti-Muslim. So, who's being inconsistent? That's right, R.S. and bob. What else is new?

In truth, Summer Wine's post is BOTH anti-Bush and anti-muslim ... and the inconsistency lies in the refusal of yourself and the other righties around here to acknowledge and respond to the fact that Summer Wine is very clearly not speaking about extremist muslims following a terror agenda, but rather of ALL muslims.

Summer Wine :
Quote:
I was also notified that the Muslim communities in the USA were coming together to have greater influence in politics, that the muslims are gaining control in france and will soon have full.

It's fear-mongeriung and bigoted speech. And wannago is silent and then he defends it as just being "anti-Bush," and his predictable hypocrisy is boring.

wannago has never seen hate speech that he agrees is worthy of the name - he probably thinks there is no such thing.


Sorry to break this to ya mr. hypocrisy, but Muslim is NOT a race, it is a religion. Now I know you and most other liberals really get off on making fun of Christians, calling them names and such but making sweeping statements about Muslims is NOT racist or bigoted....unless you're admitting that you're bigoted against Christians then, well, I'm going ice-skating in hell.
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The Bobster



Joined: 15 Jan 2003

PostPosted: Mon May 02, 2005 6:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

wannago
Quote:
Sorry to break this to ya mr. hypocrisy, but Muslim is NOT a race, it is a religion.

I just realized I'm arguing (er, "discussing," yeah, sure) with someone who can't read.

I never used the words race, racist or racism in the post you just quoted, my man - if I were in the mood I could go to town on you for such obvious foolishness, but it would be so that I easy I'm yawning at the mere thought of it.

Quote:
Now I know you and most other liberals really get off on making fun of Christians, calling them names and such but making sweeping statements about Muslims is NOT racist or bigoted....unless you're admitting that you're bigoted against Christians then, well, I'm going ice-skating in hell.

If anyone could pull off a stunt like that, it would be you, old chap ...

I don't make fun of Christians, and I don't call them names, and I haven't noticed a lot of people here making sweeping statetments about Christians in general rather than the evangelical right in particular - I grew up with good Christian people around me and I stay close to a lot of them, sim ply because they are good. They are people who would never want to shove their faith down the gullet of their entire nation, and they did not hate people of different faiths than theirs ... and they would be embarassed by someone like you.

Summer Wine wrote:
the point that I was trying to make was that political awareness and a desire to have a more political role in the countries where muslim immigrants live in does exist. Whether non muslims are aware of that fact or not.

It's not what you said, however. You said : "the muslims are gaining control in france and will soon have full." It's been said in the past about Jews and it's been said about Catholics, and in places it has even been said about Mormons, I bet. It was all mythological, and the only time in American history anything like that has had a chance of succeeding is right now, with the far-right born-again extremists ... and they will not succeed

Quote:
there is no law in a democracy that states that a democratic and liberal environment has to continue regardless of who controls the number of votes.

There's a lot to be said for this - see the far-right born-again extremists I just now mentioned.

Quote:
it is not fear mongering to raise a point that the religion of a person may in fact determine thier political leanings and what they consider acceptable behaviour in a nation. That behavior may not be what is currently accepted.

Um, actually, fear-mongering is exactly what it is, just that and exactly that. And as mentioned, it has been done before, to other religions in the USA ... saying something is not what it is does not make the tiger's stripes or turn it into a housecat.

Quote:
It is not wrong to raise questions nor is it racism to point out that ones desire to be at peace with the world with a multi belief system may be incompatible with other peoples desires and that this may not change regardless of what you change about your self and the society you live in.

It's not morally or ethically wrong, it's just wrong in the sense of 2+2=5 is wrong. The majority of the people on this planet are much like the good small-town Christian people I grew up with - it is a tiny minority who adopt the extremist viewpoint that makes them see the world so black and white and who wish to remake it all exactly one shace of mauve.

Most people alive on this planet want the same things - to simply live, to have children and work at a job that satisfies them, and to eventually die at home in bed surrounded by people who love us.

That's not hippy-talk, by the way - just go out and ask people.
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R. S. Refugee



Joined: 29 Sep 2004
Location: Shangra La, ROK

PostPosted: Mon May 02, 2005 10:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The Bobster wrote:
wannago
Quote:
Sorry to break this to ya mr. hypocrisy, but Muslim is NOT a race, it is a religion.

I just realized I'm arguing (er, "discussing," yeah, sure) with someone who can't read.

I never used the words race, racist or racism in the post you just quoted, my man - if I were in the mood I could go to town on you for such obvious foolishness, but it would be so that I easy I'm yawning at the mere thought of it.


But I did.
R.S. Refugee wrote:

PS. And I couldn't agree more with the Bobster about this example of deafening silence from our conservative friends in their (non) response to such blatant and dangerous racism. I think it is much more serious than the "Kraut" thing (no offense intended to Dogbert).

My error. I should have said 'bigotry' rather than 'racism' in this instance.
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Summer Wine



Joined: 20 Mar 2005
Location: Next to a River

PostPosted: Mon May 02, 2005 4:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Touche' I concede to some of your points Bobster. Embarassed Though there does seem to be a belief that if America or Israel changes their stance and actions, then the world would be at peace.

I was simply repeating some comments that were made to me by an individual pre 911 that showed that even without the Iraq conflict, there were trains of thought that led that it was more likely that Islam would change the world then that the World would change Islam.

As well as that train of thought, there is a possibility that regardless of who is in power in the US or how morally acceptable the US leaders are to the worlds citizens. Changes are being thrust upon them and a desire to change them has been made in the past. Whether these are the desires of a few or many, may not limit the impact.

It has previously been recognized that generally speaking only 5% on either end of the scale are likely to carry out extreme acts or hold extreme views. 5% has therefore been enough to change the world.
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canuckistan
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Joined: 17 Jun 2003
Location: Training future GS competitors.....

PostPosted: Tue May 10, 2005 5:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
"It is outrageous that the Bush Administration would give Halliburton a bonus after we have seen its overcharges, sloppy accounting and kick-back schemes in Iraq," Lautenberg said. "Giving Halliburton a bonus is like giving your worst employee a raise."

KBR's logistics deal with the U.S. military has been in the spotlight from the outset in Iraq, with allegations by auditors that they overcharged for some work, including dining services.



Don't forget that KBR has huge settlement pay-outs from losing an asbestos-related courtcase while Cheney was CEO (which effectively bankrupted the company). I guess having your Republican friends in gov't award KBR huge contracts/bonuses (despite fraud/mismanagement) is one way to shore up the balance sheet at the expense of the taxpayer. 7 billion: corporate welfare Republican style.

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=584&e=2&u=/nm/20050510/pl_nm/iraq_halliburton_dc

WASHINGTON (Reuters) - The U.S. Army said on Tuesday it had awarded $72 million in bonuses to Halliburton Co. for logistics work in Iraq but had not decided whether to give the Texas company bonuses for disputed dining services to troops.

Army Field Support Command in Rock Island, Illinois, said in a statement it had given Halliburton unit Kellogg Brown & Root ratings from "excellent" to "very good" for six task orders for work supporting U.S. troops in Iraq.

The Army said its Award Fee Board in Iraq had met in March and had agreed to pay KBR bonuses for work it did in support of U.S. forces there.

The Army said in a statement later that while it had given the company an additional $72 million, it had denied KBR $10.1 million in bonuses and not paid the maximum allowed on any of the task orders.

"We have protected the taxpayer FIRST," said the Army in a statement released later, pointing out this paragraph had been "inadvertently left off" the original news release.

The Army said dining facility costs questioned by auditors from the Defense Contract Audit Agency had not yet been considered by the military's Award Fee Board. No details were available as to when this dining fee bonus would be resolved.

Much of Halliburton's work for the U.S. military, ranging from building bases to delivering mail, is on a cost-plus basis, which means the company can earn up to 2 percent extra depending on its performance.

Bonuses are awarded based on, among other factors, how efficient and responsible the company is to requests from the Army and is an indicator of how the Army views KBR's performance in the field.

New Jersey Democratic Sen. Frank Lautenberg (news, bio, voting record), a vocal critic of Halliburton's performance in Iraq, said Halliburton did not deserve a bonus.

"It is outrageous that the Bush Administration would give Halliburton a bonus after we have seen its overcharges, sloppy accounting and kick-back schemes in Iraq," Lautenberg said. "Giving Halliburton a bonus is like giving your worst employee a raise."

KBR's logistics deal with the U.S. military has been in the spotlight from the outset in Iraq, with allegations by auditors that they overcharged for some work, including dining services.

In addition, investigators are looking into whether the Texas-based firm charged too much to supply fuel to Iraqi civilians, a claim the firm says is not justified.

Halliburton, which was run by Vice President Dick Cheney until he joined the 2000 race for the White House, has earned more than $7 billion under its 2001 logistics contract with the U.S. military.
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desultude



Joined: 15 Jan 2003
Location: Dangling my toes in the Persian Gulf

PostPosted: Tue May 10, 2005 6:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm sure it has been said before, but I love that when Chaney's name comes up on Dave's it is dick Chaney. He is really just a dick.
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Summer Wine



Joined: 20 Mar 2005
Location: Next to a River

PostPosted: Tue May 10, 2005 7:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
I know that a lot of you chaps are intelligent enough to see the blatant racism in summer wine's post without me pedantically explaining it to you. Silence implies consent.

R. S. Refugee wrote:
Summer Wine wrote:


That the leader of my country doesn't speak out against muslims now, because it was made aware to my leader that they held a sizeable number of votes in the electorate. There was and is more going on then we are made aware of in the media.




I reread this and I thought maybe I should put the record straight. Firstly, this comment is racist? It was made to me by a friend who is not white (only whites are racist??) who is muslim (only non muslims can make these statements??) and did not consider it a racist or negative statement, but rather a statement about the growing and productive role of muslims in my country.

I found it a little less to my liking, but he has his views and if muslims in my country and other countries where they are immigrants, feel underprivileged politically and need to play a greater role politically in thier country. Good for them. The original point that I had tried to make, albeitly(?) not well was that society is not rigid and has other players within it that act. Disliking one individual (BUSH) or more and believing that if they were removed would automatically change society for the better or worse does not negate the views of others and changes that will coexist within a society. For Bucheon Bum, this does not mean all muslims hold these or similar views, nor have I ever thought so.

Secondly, this was pre 911 and I believe that a large number of muslim ideas and emotional topics were overtaken by the extremist views and actions of a few. This has led to a counter reaction by muslims to extremist attitudes, which occurs in every society, it is our need to help support and promote better dialouge (?) among people to prevent similar events like 911 occuring.

Finally, please do not read a sentence and automatically believe that it is a belief of a writer or read more into it then was said. Sometimes, there is nothing more to be read that what is written. This is not always a negative, plus it appears that us writers and readers are sometimes our hardest critics.
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canuckistan
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Joined: 17 Jun 2003
Location: Training future GS competitors.....

PostPosted: Tue May 10, 2005 8:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

desultude wrote:
I'm sure it has been said before, but I love that when Chaney's name comes up on Dave's it is *beep* Chaney. He is really just a *beep*.


Ha ha, I was just thinking the same thing this morning! Laughing
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Kuros



Joined: 27 Apr 2004

PostPosted: Tue May 10, 2005 10:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Summer Wine wrote:
Firstly, this comment is racist?


Of course it isn't. Calling someone or something they posted racist is just the best way for some liberals to flame. I wouldn't even bother defending yourself. The accusations are beneath you.
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Nowhere Man



Joined: 08 Feb 2004

PostPosted: Wed May 11, 2005 7:55 am    Post subject: ... Reply with quote

And I notice a change in you, Kuros.
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